quote:Originally posted by tg2nd: I have also a question. Craig offers his bows in different length; i.e. a bow for 50#@26" in length from 62" to 68". How is it done that these bows have their best performance @ 26"? Does it depend only on tillering or have the tapers to be different?
unlike hybrid r/d longbows american flatbows with backset, straight or bellyset limbs need length to perform smoothly and stably.
my basic recommendations for the *minimum* hill longbow length for a given shooter's draw length - longer is better for smoothness of draw ...
tillering is always an issue, based on the above criteria and the shooter's string grip and form.
ymmv.
Rob, I think you misunderstood my question. It wasn't about bowlength to drawlength, but about how it is done that bows of different length perform best at a given drawlength i.e 26".
no, i heard ya - what i'm saying is that LENGTH - both draw and bow - is what matters most in terms of overall performance (smoothness, stability, speed, etc). this will assume that the bow is properly tillered for the shooter's form and string grip style.
iow, if you have a 26" draw length, you may be able to extract a tad more speed with shorter 62" limbs than 64", but the bow will invariably stack and not be a sweet shooter. then add to the equation the set of the limbs and the tiller. speed is not everything with bows, particularly hill style longbows. i'll ALWAYS take a stable/slow bow over an unstable/fast bow. ymmv.
-------------------- "Molon Labe" (Come and Get Them) ~ Instinctive Archer Magazine ~ NRA Life Member ~ TGMM Family of the Bow Posts: 8867 | From: NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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I have found the Trad. American Longbow (TAL)which also stands for Tall, when properly built (limb taper, tiller, and alignment) will shoot smoother, with greater stability, durability and have less finger pinch if you follow Rob's suggestions. I am referring to a glass bow with a riser of about 14", and minimal backset (under 3/4").
An all wood, or laminated bamboo TAL, built with a 12" riser, may have an inch shaved off the length without any adverse affect. Going shorter, may result in a bow that stacks, and eventually leads to a break-down in the lower limb (over-bending), and a loss of tiller. I have seen this happen to several all bamboo longbows that were 64-65" and rated at 27". If you are going to get an all wood TAL without glass, it is better to go with a 67"/27" than 66"/27".
IMO, there are bowyers that build a short TAL, because the customer is hard to turn down. If you want shorter, than opt for a glass hybrid, with reflex-deflex, you will be happier.
-------------------- TGMM Family of the Bow Posts: 1405 | From: Ridgefield, Wa. | Registered: Jul 2006
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[/qb][/QUOTE]no, i heard ya - what i'm saying is that LENGTH - both draw and bow - is what matters most in terms of overall performance (smoothness, stability, speed, etc). this will assume that the bow is properly tillered for the shooter's form and string grip style.
iow, if you have a 26" draw length, you may be able to extract a tad more speed with shorter 62" limbs than 64", but the bow will invariably stack and not be a sweet shooter. then add to the equation the set of the limbs and the tiller. speed is not everything with bows, particularly hill style longbows. i'll ALWAYS take a stable/slow bow over an unstable/fast bow. ymmv. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Rob,
still not the answer to my question!
You're right with the things you're saying, but it is possible to tiller a 60" bow for a 28" draw and also a 70" bow for a 28" draw! I want to know how this is done! Without regarding smoothness of draw, stacking, etc.. I personally own HH/-style bows with different length. 2 are 62", 2 are 64", 2 are 66", 1 is 69". I'd like to know how all these bows can be tillered to 25".
-------------------- German by birth, Bavarian by the grace of god Posts: 190 | From: Bavaria, Germany | Registered: Apr 2008
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This is a good question for the bow building forums but it is my understanding that the bow needs to be designed from the start. Riser length, and good tapering will account for good tillering at the target length and weight. There is also trial and error involved with figuring out the correct formulas.
Posts: 442 | From: fayetteville, wv | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by bicster: This is a good question for the bow building forums but it is my understanding that the bow needs to be designed from the start. Riser length, and good tapering will account for good tillering at the target length and weight. There is also trial and error involved with figuring out the correct formulas.
Thanks for the answer! That's what I'd wanted to hear/read. Just need a few more details. Nate, Dick, and all the other bow builders, please chime in.
-------------------- German by birth, Bavarian by the grace of god Posts: 190 | From: Bavaria, Germany | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by tg2nd: no, i heard ya - what i'm saying is that LENGTH - both draw and bow - is what matters most in terms of overall performance (smoothness, stability, speed, etc). this will assume that the bow is properly tillered for the shooter's form and string grip style.
iow, if you have a 26" draw length, you may be able to extract a tad more speed with shorter 62" limbs than 64", but the bow will invariably stack and not be a sweet shooter. then add to the equation the set of the limbs and the tiller. speed is not everything with bows, particularly hill style longbows. i'll ALWAYS take a stable/slow bow over an unstable/fast bow. ymmv.
Rob,
still not the answer to my question!
You're right with the things you're saying, but it is possible to tiller a 60" bow for a 28" draw and also a 70" bow for a 28" draw! I want to know how this is done! Without regarding smoothness of draw, stacking, etc.. I personally own HH/-style bows with different length. 2 are 62", 2 are 64", 2 are 66", 1 is 69". I'd like to know how all these bows can be tillered to 25".
is essence, i did answer your question. i gave you the real world guidelines for a hill longbow minimum bow lengths with respect to draw lengths, and with respect to their standard riser length and subsequent ntn loa.
most any stick bow can be tillered for most any shorter draw length. the real question is, was the bow designed and crafted for a specific draw length as opposed to being modified to accommodate a shorter draw length?
you can tiller a 60" hill style american flat longbow for a 28" draw, but it'll be a dog unless it's designed with a real short riser, long limbs and much luck, cause brother, that bow will not be fun to shoot.
you can tiller a 69" hill longbow to 25" and it will be super smooth drawing and shooting, but that's probably NOT going to give you OPTIMUM PERFORMANCE. the correct hill style longbow length for 25" draw length reads more like 62" to 64".
stick to the minimum guidelines i showed above and you will be a happy longbow archer. if you don't, yer asking for a very special bow that might just not be able to be built, and if so, it still may not work as well as a more "standard" hill longbow based on, you guessed it, the guidelines shown above.
iow, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear when it comes to hill AFL's (American Flat Longbows).
-------------------- "Molon Labe" (Come and Get Them) ~ Instinctive Archer Magazine ~ NRA Life Member ~ TGMM Family of the Bow Posts: 8867 | From: NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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[/QUOTE]is essence, i did answer your question. i gave you the real world guidelines for a hill longbow minimum bow lengths with respect to draw lengths, and with respect to their standard riser length and subsequent ntn loa.
most any stick bow can be tillered for most any shorter draw length. the real question is, was the bow designed and crafted for a specific draw length as opposed to being modified to accommodate a shorter draw length?
you can tiller a 60" hill style american flat longbow for a 28" draw, but it'll be a dog unless it's designed with a real short riser, long limbs and much luck, cause brother, that bow will not be fun to shoot.
you can tiller a 69" hill longbow to 25" and it will be super smooth drawing and shooting, but that's probably NOT going to give you OPTIMUM PERFORMANCE. the correct hill style longbow length for 25" draw length reads more like 62" to 64".
stick to the minimum guidelines i showed above and you will be a happy longbow archer. if you don't, yer asking for a very special bow that might just not be able to be built, and if so, it still may not work as well as a more "standard" hill longbow based on, you guessed it, the guidelines shown above.
iow, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear when it comes to hill AFL's (American Flat Longbows). [/QB][/QUOTE]
Rob, again you're right.
But I'm still interested in how it could be done.
-------------------- German by birth, Bavarian by the grace of god Posts: 190 | From: Bavaria, Germany | Registered: Apr 2008
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a short bow and long bow can both be tillered to a long draw....tillering is nothing more than making the limbs bend in a smooth arc and bend in unison. how far you want them to bend is determined by alot of factors of which bowlength is one. With the short bow and long draw the arc is tighter, which leads to extra speed and loss of smoothness or stacking. A long bow and short draw the arc is alot shallower and you don't get the performance most would desire. Rob's ratios are commonly thought of to be the best for all around performance...smoothness of draw and speed.
Posts: 913 | From: Kimberly, Id | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by tg2nd: ...But I'm still interested in how it could be done.
i just told you. nate just told you, too.
-------------------- "Molon Labe" (Come and Get Them) ~ Instinctive Archer Magazine ~ NRA Life Member ~ TGMM Family of the Bow Posts: 8867 | From: NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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From a shooter's perspective, for the last several inches, a good bow gains pretty close to three pounds per inch of draw.
If you draw 30 inches, that's the perfect recipe for you.
If you draw 25 inches, it's also perfect for you.
The thing is, a good bow draws about three pounds per inch of draw. The bow does not care if you draw it 25 inches, or 28 inches.
If I were to loan any of my 75-pound Hill bows to my wife, she would only draw them to her draw length, but they would still be smooth as silk to her draw length, just as they are to my draw length.
The bowyer only needs to build a bow that does not smoothly gain more than three pounds or so per inch of draw. Beyond that, it's up to the archer.
Posts: 603 | From: Horseshoe Bend, Idaho | Registered: Nov 2003
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Does anyone have a scale handy and can gather draw wt data at 1/2" increments beginning at 25" and ending at 30"
If so, plot that data in excel and "see" all of this stuff in one picture. Do it with a 70"er and compare it to any other length to verify what is happening.
My new HH halfbreed "mac" is a 69" string follow marked 57#@ 29". It measures #56@28" (as expected)
My good friend Mudd fed me with the following data:
at 26" - 49# at 27" - 51# at 28" - 56#
At my draw, 27.5" he pulls 53# which is about 3# lighter than my target wt. but ok for starters.
I doubt that the weight increase will be linear in any of these hill bows but I would like to see it in a chart...that chart/graph will answer a ton of questions...imo
-------------------- Michigan Longbow Association Posts: 1305 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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force-draw curves are interesting at best. get a 32" "arrow" - a dowel or shaft with a nock at one end and marked in 1/2" increments from 24" to 31". start with a clothespin held tight at the 24" mark (add a rubber band 'round the clothespin to increase the clamping tightness) and pull with your easton digital scale 'til the pin touches the back of the riser. do it twice again, each time checking the resulting weight and accept the average. write it down. continue moving the clothespin to all marks. plot the xy coordinates on graph paper. there's yer force-draw curve.
however, the rubber meets the road with bow in hand, arrow on rest, and your specific draw length reached.
it either feels right or it doesn't.
-------------------- "Molon Labe" (Come and Get Them) ~ Instinctive Archer Magazine ~ NRA Life Member ~ TGMM Family of the Bow Posts: 8867 | From: NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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Any good selfbowyer will always graph out his draw force curve so he can adjust to his intended final draw weight as smoothly as possible while keeping his intended tiller.
My 2 cents worth
God bless,Mudd
-------------------- Trying to make a difference Psalm 37:4 Roy L "Mudd" Williams TGMM- Family Of The Bow Archery isn't something I do, it's who I am! The road to "Sherwood" makes for an awesome journey. Posts: 9969 | From: Mid-Missouri | Registered: Mar 2003
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