quote:Originally posted by AdamH: I know, not pertinent here, but I witnessed my Bud shoot a fat 6 pt. in Md. last year with a "screamin" wheelie bow, 30 yard shot, dead on the shoulder goin in tight behind other comin out, Buck stumbled 32 yards, dead in 3-4 seconds, I took that "pass thru" arrow {soda straw size carbon w/85grn. Thunderhead} home and weighed it on my Digital scale ...... 370 Grains, Total ... Obviously, Speed means something ... I know, Apples to Oranges, but it was Pretty Impressive to say the least ...
I've helped track a couple Fast light comppound rage BH shot deer hit in the shoulder or high in the shoulder/neck area (very close shot)...none found even with a dog, both probably survived and in one case the arrow backed out and there was only about 3 inches of penetration.
My 675gr arrow with a hair popping sharp Grizzly last year blew a hole through the ball and socket of a doe's femur big enough to fit my finger through and still went another 13"through to the other side. I made a bad shot, but she was down in less than 50yds. I'd hate to have that happen with a 330fps 400gr arrow.
Yes straight and sharp are a given no matter what arrow or bow you shoot. Why take a chance?
-------------------- TGMM-Family of the Bow
The quest to improve is so focused on a few design aspects & compensating for hunter ineptness as to actually have reduced a bow & arrow’s effectiveness. Nothing better demonstrates this than mech. BHs & speed fixated designs Posts: 1362 | From: Orange Cnty, NY | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
JDunlap, Heavier arrows do fly better in the wind. Especially if you use HFOC and smaller fletchings.
Whittler, A body in motions tends to stay in motion. The heavier the body the longer it will stay in motion when it impacts another object. Physics tells you that the heavier arrow will penetrate better, as does all of the Ashby testing and a whole bunch of dangerous game hunters. This one is not even in question. It is firmly proven.
-------------------- Clay Walker Skill is not born into anyone. It is earned thru hard work and perseverance. Posts: 3246 | From: Vancouver, WA. | Registered: May 2009
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posted
Here is some research for Dr. Ashby's report that tested a relatively lightweight 655gr arrow which penetrated very well in comparison to the 790 and 900 gr traditional "buffulo arrows". I believe the lighter arrow was shot from a lighter bow than the heavier arrows. Distribution of weight seems to be more important that shear mass.
Here is the excerpt from Dr. Ashby's 2008 Part 6 report, but you really should read through it: "Few bowhunters who've taken Cape or Asian buffalo, me included, would have ever considered any 655 grain arrow capable of consistently providing adequate penetration on massive bodied buffalo bulls. Yet here we are, confronted with one that has done so. On every thorax hit this 655 grain Ultra-EFOC arrow fully traversed the thorax and imbedded deeply in the off-side rib;"
posted
The only way any of this makes a bit of difference is if the heavy arrow is shot at the same speet as the light arrow! If the speed is the same then the weight will trump every time. If the lighter arrow is traveling 10+ fps faster then you will be suprised how comparable the penetration will be. I shoot 7.5 per #, get perfect flight, and shoot through bear and elk with no problem!
Posts: 39 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2011
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For me I go with heavy arrows which are slower. The penetration is better but harder on feathers when it goes thru the target. In my bow the lighter the noisier and the lighter the more hand shock. It drops more at a set distance but I can't judge distance worth a squat so I shoot instinctive and its not an issue. With compounds I shot heavy, long, and light and was always missing when judging came into play. Now it magically takes care of itself.
Posts: 428 | From: Hinton, Oklahoma | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Earl E. Nov...mber: Can I have heavy and fast?
Sure. Heavy and fast is relative so you should be fine. Just make sure you only shoot with kids flinging tiny arrows. Then you will be sure that your arrow is heavy and fast.
posted
Javi, in traditional archery it's the guidelines of physics, not the laws.
-------------------- Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.- Ben Franklin Posts: 2390 | From: New Albany, MS | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Shawn Leonard: I killed 2 deer and a coyote a few years back..... Passed thru both deer and entered coyotes left ham and came out up to the fletch in front of off shoulder
That's got to be pretty rare to have 2 deer and a coyote lined up for that shot, huh?
Seriously, though, I agree with you.
Posts: 128 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Mar 2003
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The laws of physics never seem to apply to archery...
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I do not understand. The laws of physics absolutly apply to archery. What do you mean? If you PM me a question, I would be happy to send you a reply that may explain just how physics applies. A bow is a lever. An arrow is a cylindar, an 2 blade broad head is basically 2 inclinded plains. It is easy to caluculate kenetic energy and slug force if the FPS and grain weight is known. Mechanical advantage can be calculated if the dementions of the broad head are known. This is physics. Also we know the gravitational pull of the Earth has a constant due to its mass, generalized as 9.8 meters per second per second. So the flight of a bullet or an arrow is basicaly the same in seconds before it hits the Earth if fired from the same height, it is just the distancen the projectile traveles as well as its speed that is different. We can use this to help calculate slug force (momentum). This absolutely is physics.
Speed matters as does grain weigh. FPS can be a key element as to arrow "power" thus penetration when combined with certain broad heads, and the meduim they are intended to strike, thus contributing to a leathality factor. Again, totally physics.
Bob.
-------------------- 66" Osage Royale 57lbs@30 66" Sunset Hill 57lbs@29 68" Two Tracks Echo 46lbs@29 68" Deathwish 51lbs@29 68" Shrew Hill 52lbs@29 Posts: 1247 | From: Dodgeville, WI | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
The lighter arrow Ashby arrow discussion point above does not work for 90% of all trad archers. They are not using EFOC arrows. The light Ashby arrow mentioned is above the bone breaking threshold which puts it into another realm which also does not apply to the light end of this discussion. The Ashby arrow has multiple advancements that use the laws of physics as they relate to arrow optimization. The standard light arrow discussed here will not perform like the light Ashby arrow in any situation.
The laws of Physics are just that laws. We can argue until the cows come home, a heavier arrow for the average archer will still penetrate better no matter the argument made. I find that those who argue for light arrows have very rarely shot heavy arrows into very many animals.
As before I say shoot what you like and want. And enjoy the process. I have no feelings for or against light arrows. That is a personal choice.
I do say, don't try and claim a light arrow at 10 fps faster will penetrate better than the heavier arrow. Physics, testing, field hunting experiments, and if you read the full Ashby reports proven testing shows that is not true for any standard arrow as discussed here. That bird just wont fly!
I have spent enough years using physics in the field of engineering to fully understand the math and if someone would like to post up arrow weights and speeds to match the 10 fps change, I will be happy to run the impulse momentum equations to resolve the issue. Again you cannot change the laws of physics. They always work.
-------------------- Clay Walker Skill is not born into anyone. It is earned thru hard work and perseverance. Posts: 3246 | From: Vancouver, WA. | Registered: May 2009
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posted
Archery is 25% physics and 75% art-I made that up! Making a 600 grain arrow travel faster is physics, and very important. Making it hit where you want is art; and important too? Light and fast-heavy and not so fast? Good things to ponder and work on. At the end of the day it is archery basics that kills-art trumps physics-yay! LOL!
Posts: 8762 | From: Los Gatos, California | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Bob B.: The laws of physics never seem to apply to archery...
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I do not understand. The laws of physics absolutly apply to archery. What do you mean? If you PM me a question, I would be happy to send you a reply that may explain just how physics applies. A bow is a lever. An arrow is a cylindar, an 2 blade broad head is basically 2 inclinded plains. It is easy to caluculate kenetic energy and slug force if the FPS and grain weight is known. Mechanical advantage can be calculated if the dementions of the broad head are known. This is physics. Also we know the gravitational pull of the Earth has a constant due to its mass, generalized as 9.8 meters per second per second. So the flight of a bullet or an arrow is basicaly the same in seconds before it hits the Earth if fired from the same height, it is just the distancen the projectile traveles as well as its speed that is different. We can use this to help calculate slug force (momentum). This absolutely is physics.
Speed matters as does grain weigh. FPS can be a key element as to arrow "power" thus penetration when combined with certain broad heads, and the meduim they are intended to strike, thus contributing to a leathality factor. Again, totally physics.
Bob.
Bob, it was sarcasm…. I’m a design engineer
Don caught it.. .
Every day on any archery forum regardless of whether it is a traditional archery forum or a compound forum; if hunting is involved there will be many who clearly state and adamantly defend the concept that the laws of physics do not apply to archery equipment. It’s especially unique to traditional archery where we are dealing with comparatively slow moving projectiles and no matter the analogy, or the science used to explain the physics there will always be those who despite the best efforts continue to sacrifice at the altar of speed at all costs…
I think I'll quit trying to explain it to them and let them continue happily on their path..
-------------------- Mike "Javi" Cooper TBoT Member Posts: 795 | From: Waco, Texas | Registered: Feb 2011
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