Sounds about right to me. Also, if Howard would have had clear glass to build his bows with, they'd have been better looking bows! IMHO.
-------------------- May the road rise up to meet you, and may the wind be always at your back. Posts: 909 | From: Ohio | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
If one figures Eric's 77" in ratio to his 31" that is really no different than my ratio with my draw and a slightly shaped gripped longbow which is 26.5" with my 67.25" wingspan. With recurves it is 27" and my bow arm is not locked, so he really is not off on the long side from a lot of others with shorter arms. The ratio of bow length to draw is quite different than the average, 2.258" of bow for every inch of draw with a 70" bow. That would be the same as a 59.27" bow for my 26.25" draw. That bow would be showing some major arc at full draw. Maybe there should be a longer longbow for that draw. But on the other hand perhaps that extra bend in the bow arm and open stance helped get Hill to the fluid accuracy that he was famous for in the first place.
Posts: 2559 | From: Iowa | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by dragonheart: When the heel is down on the bow, bow shoulder low and back and locked in the socket there is no need for arm strength. You have a feeling of "bone to bow", the bowhand wrist is broken and the forearm bone is "going into the centerline of the grip. Slight pressure with the bottom 2 figers is all that is needed.
You're right, but if you try to purposefully add more bend in your arm, you will use your arms muscles.
Posts: 1378 | From: The Dark Corner, SC | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by dragonheart: When the heel is down on the bow, bow shoulder low and back and locked in the socket there is no need for arm strength. You have a feeling of "bone to bow", the bowhand wrist is broken and the forearm bone is "going into the centerline of the grip. Slight pressure with the bottom 2 figers is all that is needed.
You're right, but if you try to purposefully add more bend in your arm, you will use your arms muscles.
I disagree. If you break the wrist, bend your arm and get the heel of the hand far enough into the center line of the bow, you will not increase the tension in arm muslces in the bow arm. The other component is the low and back bow shoulder, locked in. In phots of Hill you can really see this. His arm is not tensed up.
There are people that shoot Hills with a side pressure grip. They "squeeze the sap out of it" so to speak.
Look at Byron Ferguson's form. He has a broken wrist, bent arm, but is NOT squeexing the fire out of the bow and "muscling" it. He does have pressure and writes about this in his book become the arrow. He is not using arm muscles to control the bow arm. Allowing the bowarm to flex naturally without tension. The more I have bend, and with proper placement of the heel of my hand in the centerline of the bowgrip, the less I have to grip it. I can shoot with slight pressure and a finger-sling. If you shoot with pressure on the "side of the bowgrip" squeezing the sap out of it, you are correct in that you will have to use more arm tension.
For me the key is to having the bow shoulder low and "locked into socket" and the bent arm relaxed.
-------------------- Longbows & Short Shots Posts: 3181 | From: Nacogdoches, Texas | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
You're missing what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you already do those things, shortening your draw by bending your arm MORE, will cause you to use your arm muscles. Whatever your draw length is, try to shorten it 3-4 inches by bending your arm more.
Posts: 1378 | From: The Dark Corner, SC | Registered: Oct 2006
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Jeff, buddy I read and re-read your post several times today, just couldnt get that "low bow shoulder" thing in my head as to what you meant. I just went out and shot the last 20 minutes of daylight and I think it finally sank in. Its tough to put into words, guess thats why I didnt understand at first.
Everything else you said made sense and lines up with how I shoot. My bow arm is relaxed, wrist bottomed out and light grip on the handle, I could shoot open handed if I wanted to pick my bow up every shot.
Got a few things to work on now.
Eric
-------------------- "I dont want to overthrow the government, I wanna Fire'em!"- Gallagher Technolgy-The knowledge of arranging things so we dont have to actually experience them. If you want people to listen to what you have to say, dont talk so much! Posts: 2574 | From: Manton Michigan | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Besides, I wasn't talking about shooting exactly like Howard Hill. I was simply trying to make the point that there are folks who shoot Hill-style bows effectively without loosing 5 inches of draw length, when switching from other style bows.
Posts: 1378 | From: The Dark Corner, SC | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
John Schulz commented about arm strength in a phone conversation I had with him. He said that some guys just don't have the arm to shoot heavy bows. There is a bit a muscle development that happens when one shoots a longbow Hill style. Hill worked on that strength regularly, so did Schulz.
Posts: 2559 | From: Iowa | Registered: Oct 2009
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I'm 6'2" and have a wingspan of 78+" and shoot a draw of 26 3/4 bop with a 2 1/4" deep handle. I have my bow shoulder settled 'back' into the socket like a bottomed out shock, my arm is bent a little with the elbow pointed down rather than out, and my wrist is bent almost to it's max at about 75*. I don't lean into the shot any more than I lean into my shotgun. I shoot with my shoulder at right angles to the target, my body facing 90* or more away from the target and my hips rotated more than 90* away from the target. It is a very powerful position like the old english longbowmen used when 'shooting in the bow'. I can shoot very heavy bows this way without sacrificing stability because I'm not floating my bow arm around in the shoulder socket and I'm not gripping the bow on the side. I can draw and shoot with my fingers completely open which shows I'm gripping the bow in the sweetspot of the palm. I also tilt my head forward slightly instead of holding it straight up. All of these factors help in keeping my draw length reasonably short. When I shoot a recurve or r/d bow, because of the different grip style, my draw increases about 1 1/2". I believe that draw length in the Hill style is a factor resulting in the sum of many small parts. Fluid motion is my key thought, just like shooting a shotgun over pointed birds.
If I would venture a guess...most guys I've seen state their draw length have done so in front of a mirror, or in front of someone watching, and they are NOT shooting. In essence their drawing form is very static. When I draw this way I also draw longer. But when I shoot, and this is key...."I become fluid because I'm thinking about the shot and not my form, which lets me react to the game and react to the shot situation and because I'm not thinking about form, my draw length is it's natural fluid length." When I have these debates with most archers, I have them draw colored lines on their arrows every 1/2" from about 25" to the end of the arrow and then while shooting NATURALLY AND FLUIDLY have someone watch to see which line they consistently draw to..... while shooting level, up and down and sitting and kneeling....I've only had two guys tell me that their draw length was the same as in front of the mirror. The vast majority of shooters tell me that they would never believe their draw length while shooting was actually as short as the colored lines on the arrow displayed. Try it for yourself. And remember not to try to stretch out the draw. Draw and shoot as smoothly and rythmically and fluidly as possible, just as you do in the field....see what the colored lines tell you.... Posts: 903 | From: Kimberly, Id | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by looper: Besides, I wasn't talking about shooting exactly like Howard Hill. I was simply trying to make the point that there are folks who shoot Hill-style bows effectively without loosing 5 inches of draw length, when switching from other style bows.
I agree. People can shoot Hill style bows in different configurations of form, and make it work. With that said that does not equate to shooting the form or technique that Howard Hill and his protege John Schulz advocate.
The idea behind the bend in the arm is mobility, and a relaxed style. That is based on John Schulz writing and DVD. He was taught by Hill and never deviated from his teachings in shooting form based on his video. The mobility is to adapt to a moving target for quick shooting.
Will you loose 5 inches? No, I know you are exagerating. In returning to shooting "Hill-style" I have lost about 1 1/2" of draw length. I have gained discipline, a more relaxed attitude (helped with TP issues), mobility, confidence, a standard to return to when I have some glitch in my technique, and a form that allows me to shoot more bow weight for hunting.
I disagreed that arm strength is needed. Yes, there is strength needed on some level to shoot a longbow. We can all benefit from being fit, no matter how you bend your arm! You can build on that and it helps for sure. I just don't see where bending the bow arm vs. straight arm requires more strength as long as the bow shoulder is low and back in the socket, and bow grip are in proper position. From my experience, when I grip the bow properly, I only need enough to hold onto the bow at recoil.
When I grip on the side of the bow, then I really have to get a hold of it to control it. That is not a relaxed way to shoot for me. When I do it right, the slight grip pressure is more with the bottom three fingers, with the pointer only along for the ride very relaxed. Bow is "seated" in the grip, centerline of bow on the heel of hand.
Watch this video of Hill. I think this video may illustrate what I mean.
posted
I went out a little while ago and shot several of my Hills. I took a 45@29, a 50@28, and a 75@28. I noticed that I had a much lower bow shoulder with the heavy bow and my draw length shortened to around 30.5". I guess I was engaging my back muscles better with the heavy bow. After thinking about it, I went back out and shot my 45@29 with the same low and back shoulder. My draw did shorten to the same 30.5", maybe a touch more.
I had my wife take some pics for me. It's hard to tell in the picture, but I'm about 1/2" from the 31" mark on my arrow, so this is about a 30.5" draw. That arrow is 32.5" to the back of the point. I pegged a tennis ball at 27 steps on this shot.
Posts: 1378 | From: The Dark Corner, SC | Registered: Oct 2006
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looper....not to be critical...your form looks great. But I see one thing that would probably shorten your draw at least another inch....you wear glasses...and as such you can't tilt your head forward as much or it affects your vision. You have to keep a straight up head position. I know, I have to wear glasses...I wear contacts most of the time so that I don't have to worry about tilting my head, but the glasses I do have are very small.
Posts: 903 | From: Kimberly, Id | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Form looks good. This is my form years back with a 46# bow. Then today with a 60# bow. Look at my bowgrip. Notice how in the first photo I am so around on the side of the grip. Lots of arm strength. In the second, much more stable as the wrist is broken like making a 'stopsign" with your hand and forearm bone going into the bow grip's center of the handle.
-------------------- Longbows & Short Shots Posts: 3181 | From: Nacogdoches, Texas | Registered: Nov 2003
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You can build on that and it helps for sure. I just don't see where bending the bow arm vs. straight arm requires more strength as long as the bow shoulder is low and back in the socket, and bow grip are in proper position. From my experience, when I grip the bow properly, I only need enough to hold onto the bow at recoil. 
