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» Trad Gang.com » Main Forums » PowWow » MAKE HEAVY ARROWS HEAVIER (Page 2)

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Author Topic: MAKE HEAVY ARROWS HEAVIER
ChuckC
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Forrester makes heavy wood arrows / shafts. I have some shafts of leopardwood that will make 800-900 grain finished arrows.
Posts: 7356 | From: Deforest, Wisconsin | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
styksnstryngs
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Force=mass x acceleration

380 grn x 185 fps=70,300 units of force
450 grn x 165 fps=74,250 units of force
750 grn x 80 fps=60,000 units of force

Obviously, these are random guesses, especially that last number, but I'm being conservative anyways and this shows basically that mass isn't everything.

Posts: 104 | From: Texas | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BWallace10327
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[biglaugh] [biglaugh] This thread has me rolling with laughter.

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***$ Brent Wallace $***
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Posts: 908 | From: Four Corner Area, Colorado | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
McDave
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Styks, you are multiplying mass X velocity which equals momentum, not force. There is no acceleration in an arrow once it leaves the bow, only deceleration. Interestingly, while you are using the wrong terminology, I agree with your conclusion.

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TGMM Family of the Bow

I'm a man, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.

Posts: 4328 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nantahala Nut
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I have a 38# recurve that I tuned up an arrow to a little less than 500 grains. I draw 28. It was a GT Trad Classic 600 spine. Fun bow to shoot but they start to drop like a rock at 20 yards. If you want an effective hunting arrow for that bow I think your gonna need to be around 450 grains. Speed isnt everything and weight isnt everything. Find a good marriage of the two.
Posts: 306 | From: Cullowhee, North Carolina | Registered: Jan 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nantahala Nut
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Personally my goal is to have a hunting weight arrow (11 gppish) that flies as flat as possible out to 20 yards. A big old rainbow trajectory is gonna be hard to hunt with. Better have absolutely clear shooting lanes.
Posts: 306 | From: Cullowhee, North Carolina | Registered: Jan 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
last arrow
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Lets answer the posters questions, not try to talk him out of it. We don't know what he wants to do. After all this is a avery personal sport.
I have shot hundreds of carp with a 28 lb recurve bow and a 1200 grain fiberglass fish arrow. Everything has an application.

I would adjust the shaft length and head weight of the 2219 to get your arrow tuned. Probably about 31" with a 300 grn head.

One thing I will add is that increased arrow weight has always resulted in higher momentums for a given bow in my testing. Here are some fairly accurate numbers from actual testing done on a homemade recurve with about a 45 lb draw weight (measured arrow weight in grns, measured velocity in fps, and calculated momentum in slugs).

509 - 172 - .3935
595 - 161 - .4263
720 - 147 - .4699
842 - 137 - .5122

The first 2 arrows are easton axis shafts of differing lengths and head weight and the second two where 2219 aluminum. There is an easy to use momentum calculator on the Tuffhead Broadheads website along with some interesting articles on the momentum required for certain game animals. You can hunt anything with a 30 lb bow and the right arrow as long as you can shoot it accurately. That said, my goal for hunting arrows is to be between 11 and 12 grns per pound of bow draw weight.

I have set up lightweight bows with heavy arrows for my daughters to hunt with when they were young. It does work. Yes big arcs happen, but can be shot accurately if you work at it.

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“The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted.” James Madison

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" Voltaire

Michigan Traditional Bowhunters
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BCR1985
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Thank you for all the input. I hope I didn't upset anyone with this post. I've just realized in my limited experience that you can usually Taylor the spine to fit most draw weights and yes there will always be a change in the arrows trajectory but as was pointed out above you can learn to anticipate the impact point of an arrow regardless of arc. I've also seen this work in the field. I have personally killed several 60 to 70 pound wild hogs with a 36 pound Ben Pearson colt and a 2018 XX75 shaft cut to 29 inches. Total arrow weight was just a little over 600 grains per inch . I can play with my set up until I get it where I need it to be but the experiment here was to take the heaviest commercially available aluminum shaft and to try to get it to work with a lighter bow draw weight. Just looking for some out-of-the-box ideas that I might not have already thought about. Once I get the set up right you're all welcome to come down and try your hand at our place for some big boars! I promise I will only shoot my inadequate 700 grain 40 pound set up..
Posts: 67 | From: nj | Registered: Nov 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
styksnstryngs
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McDave- I'm an idiot. I'm also in AP physics 2, which is an unfortunate fact in light of what I just did. But the velocity is kind of representative of the acceleration: the lower the speed, the more negative the acceleration to slow it down from dry fire speed.
Posts: 104 | From: Texas | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
tecum-tha
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the only thing that mounts with such an heavy arrow is the probability of a wound,either through misjudged distance or through movement of the animal you shoot at. Especially hogs are scittish and seldom relaxed. They also interact a lot with other members in their group which is more potential movement due to actions by other group members. I don't doubt the ability of a 600grain arrow, but 60 and 70# hogs are babies.
I would rather optimize a 560-600 grain arrow for its flight characteristics. Especially from a longbow.
1.) Get away from Aluminums, as GT traditionals can be had in blems for about the same money. They are more slender and that will help in penetration. 3555 or.500 spine
249 grains at 29"length.
2.) Fill the first 2 thirds with braided rope glued to back of insert = 60grains gain + weight tapering.
3.)use a standard Insert (comes with shafts), a 100 grain steel broadhead adapter and a sturdy 2 blade head (ACE for example or Zwickey).
4x3" 60/120 fletching
This should yield a 580 grain arrow with 23% FOC (Ashby threshold for bone), with the shaft smaller than BH ferrule and hopefully enough speed to hopefully hitting what you want to hit in a dynamic environment.
Price: $5 per shaft, $1 adapter, $1 fletching, $5.20 broadhead, $.20 rope, $.20 glue
$12.40 total

Use the 5575 or .400 shaft with the same length and fill it full with rope =90 grains and use a 300 grain head adapter combination.=700 grains
Same price within a dime or two.....

Posts: 913 | From: Boonville,Indiana | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
pavan
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I don't know about super heavy in any bow if deer is the game. The year I tore a tricep, I killed a very large doe with an 18 yard up hill shot with a Hill longbow that was maybe 37# @ 26.25" draw. The arrow was a 5/16" Acme with a ripple edged 140 grain Hill broadhead. It was rippled because a used a Dremel tool to sharpen it. The arrow passed through, tagged a rib and was still6 or 8 feet into the corn field. The doe ran to the nearest cedar patch and went down. My wife has killed deer with that bow and other of about the same poundage with cedar arrows and only once did not get two holes, the arrow lodged into the far shoulder. These arrow ranged from 420 to 430 grains. People often don't consider the effectiveness of a simple two blade head. My wife prefers Eskimos, while I prefer Grizzlies, Hunter Heads and single bevel Hills.

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Pavan

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indianalongbowshooter
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your bow will be shooting about 100 fps if your lucky, I shot a 47# Super Diablo drawn to 28-28.5 in. with a 600 gr carbon and it was shooting 147 fps.If your going to try to hunt with it you've reached or passed the point of diminishing returns.

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dean/indianalongbowshooter

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BCR1985
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Just an update: I was at the lowes the other day and noticed some 5/16 oak dowels.. Was looking at them as a potential weight tube for the 2219s. I realized quickly they'd be too wide in diameter to fit the 2219, but they seemed to be fairly consistent in grain, etc. So being the experimenter, I took a few and sanded, sealed, wrapped, fletched and cut to 30. I put a 160 grain field point on the end. Same longbow drawing about 38 at 27. They shot great!! And hit hard!I was getting 6-8 inches up penetration at my typical distances. My furthest distance was at 17 yards and I was in vitals everytime on that foam deer target. I did the math and scaled them. They worked out to an avg of 16 gpi. The avg total arrow weight was around 680 grains! I couldn't believe what they did at 17 yards and they flew better than any cedars ive owned! I guess spine is negotiable at the end of the day? Also, I can't remember the last time I've killed an animal outside of 20 yards, so if 20 is my limit with that kind of performance I will take it! At least ill have a good set of stumpers/back up shafts in the event the 2219's fall short. Thanks to all for the input and advice!
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tecum-tha
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If these arrows fly better than any cedars you owned, you probably never owned a decent cedar arrow before which was matched to your bow and shooting style.
At 20 yards it is great if you hit your mark on a stationary target all the time, but an animal reacts to your shot and at 20 yards it will most likely already fully down or so far down that you will get a high or spine shot.
6-8" of penetration in foam with a field point is no measure of anything.
Spine is not negotiable, you just added this much mass that the shaft mass now also plays into your spine. Common with hardwood shafts and they probably already were spined right around your draw weight due to the wood quality.
And by the way, oak is a short fibered wood and that's why it is not making a good arrow which will stay straight for a good amount of time. I would be cautious using dowels from the home improvement stores....

Posts: 913 | From: Boonville,Indiana | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
pavan
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There is a reason that the good old cedar with a 125 Zwickey Eskimo has had such a long history, they work. Some times people get a notion in their head and cannot let it go. If something in the past like bad penetration on hit caused this, I cannot tell. For deer the best way ensure penetration is to have the arrow flying directly behind the broadhead. Some broadheads penetrate easier than others. I have field dressed an hauled out far too many Iowa deer that were shot with a 38 pound at 26+" and cedar arrows shot by my wife, to think they won't fly straight and won't effectively put two holes in a deer. Something is amiss here. It is not all that difficult to get perfect flying cedar arrows to come out of a 37 or 38 pound longbow at 27".

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Pavan

Posts: 5988 | From: Iowa | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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