Well done Marty, She certainly is a beautiful specimen! Good debate everyone, as Pzee and ChrisG said - Lion hunting isn't illegal yet, just much much harder for the farm owners to setup. Not only is keeping a Lion for two years expensive but think of the license fee's etc... Lions are definatly struggling to survive in Africa in comparatively small pockets of land separated, not only physically but genetically. Me thinks they (Lions) are going the way of the Dodo - hopefully not in our lifetime.
-------------------- 'It's better to have less thunder in the mouth, and more lightning in the hand.' - Apache proverb Posts: 239 | From: African in London | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by gregg dudley: I don't know anything about lions or hunting in Africa. Frankly I was under the impression that most hunts over there were behind a game fence due to established game management practices, widespread poaching, and animals being considered a commodity.
Gregg im impressed.
Ray your right in the point that hunters did bring it upon themselves i should have worded that differently. But i think you misunderstand the fence issues in Southern Africa.
What im not worried about here is what one guys thinks is Right over the next guy, "Ethics". What im concerned about is the Welfare and sustainable future of our environment and wildlife, in this particular thread, Lions! And in Rays case the effect it will have on our future as hunters.
some facts There are more animals, Across the board (Bar a few) in Southern Africa today, then there have ever been! Why?
My Concern is that if lion hunting is no longer, lions are no longer! lions are there now because they have a value to the farmers/landowners, if its starts costing them more in eaten game then in trophy fees there will be no incentive to have them on the property's, and the numbers will decline quickly. I may not agree with it but i know whats keeping their numbers there.
The fenced Issue i find interesting in the way people understand, probably because most of the guys have never even been to Southern Africa or had any hands on involvement with the issues, challenges in land ownership and management faced out there! What i also find interesting is how this Lion Topic has raise questions and concerns over all the other posts on Africa. Southern Africa is fenced…ALL OF IT!!! And most of the plains game shot in regards to bowhunters, are shot out of hides, over water holes or feed… why has this been painted different? if it was in a Tiny "pen", sure! but with the farms as big as some of them are over there i don't see your argument. As for the point on Animals being 'easier to kill' on a Big fenced property out there, your mistaken!
the reason there is MORE game now then there has ever been is because of fences and because the game has a value, you also cannot compare the fact that South Africa is fenced compared to your Countries, they are very different! You know that. "There are more huntable species in South Africa than any other Country"!!!, consider that. Not only is just the wildlife so diverse, there is a huge complicated fragile relationship within the ecosystem and its even more fragile relationship with man. A lot of the issues you could not even comprehend in the States or Australia because they do not exist for you. And im happy you do not have to fence everything.
How many Antelope species do you have in your continent? Africa has 71 last time I checked, Thats antelope species alone! Not to mention the huge rage of predators that prey upon them, how about large destructive populations of people that poach? Cut down every tree for firewood, have NO sustainable management mindset. The Fences are not just there to keep the animals in, they are there to protect the wildlife and environment, fences are there because hunters have given our wildlife a value and they are willing to put the money on the table for it, and therefore given land owners the incentive to protect them, without fences the high population of game WOULD NOT EXSIST! Governments are different, laws are different, people are different and the management challenges we face between Man, the Animals and the Habitat are far more complex then those of other countries.
Its like there's higher than thou conscience thats getting pushed, the world is not perfect we have what we have and we'r working with it.
Our family has been involved in Wildlife management, Grassland science and Sustainable habitat management for generations, in South Africa, the situation there is what it is, we have to work with what we have.
There is a Lot of things that i don't agree with as far as hunting across the world, but iv put aside "perfect world" and swallowed it for the "real world" And work with what we have now knowing the alternatives we have are far more destructive.
-------------------- There is more to the Hunt.. then the Horns
**TGMM Family of the Bow**
Andy Ivy Posts: 4140 | From: African in Australia | Registered: Feb 2006
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I guess we're going to leave it here, Andy.
I am unconcerned about what is legal
I don't care about antelope and how many we have, or how great the wildlife programs are and how well they've done at keeping species alive and vibrant.
All of that is irrelevant to my concern.
Apparently I am incapable of enough eloquence to get my point across, so beyond this I'll not comment longer because I will begin to sound like a broken record.
There are other countries in Africa where lions do roam free and prior to right now a hunt in one of those countries could have been planned- right at the moment even there we now see restrictions on them....in fact, the restrictions are due to OVERHARVEST causing a lack of adult lions, according to the PH's I am talking with.
What I am saying is that at some point we must begin deciding that just because the law doesn't rule something out, we still ought to think twice about doing it.(it makes no difference if your only intent is for the fence to keep poachers out- it STILL keeps animals inside)
The subtle distinctions we are very comfortable with will be LOST in the minds of non-hunters. To them, a fence is a fence- and they understand what fences do- they keep things out AND they keep things in. Just ask any dog owner(we have 90 million dog owners in this continent and they'll tell you- you idjit, the fence keeps my dog from running off!)
Bear baiting does make sense to us- if your goal is to make certain you are not killing a female with cubs and that's typically the reason for baiting.
Chasing mountain lions with dogs makes sense to us- beyond the fact you'd probably never SEE a mt lion on foot by yourself within shooting range with a bow- it also allows you to selectively take the males or older specimens or pull your dogs off and go to another track.
But lions being bred in an enclosure for one purpose- to be killed- by being thrown into another enclosure a few days weeks or months prior to the "hunt" happening- does that sound like what we ought to be about, whether its legal or not?
There was a guy who was going to fence in areas around resorts all over the country, bring in "celebrity" hunters to kill the bucks on TV on a circuit, and have a NASCAR or PGA for buck hunting- he even talked about using darts and releasing the deer when people began raising concerns.
The outcry here was amazing. How much different are these penned lion hunts than what this fellow was attempting to do here in the states? the only thing missing are the bleachers and live cams.
If success is the only thing that drives us, how do we reconcile that with limiting our ability to take game by using a weapon with strict limitations?
Remove fair chase and we begin down a road that will eventually lead to a place not many of us will recognize or like.
what we do individually affects us all. Because the world is truly a "global village" now, what happens in the far reaches of Australia can have an impact on what happens here, or in England- anywhere.
Yes, our individual circumstances are different- It's very interesting to me that in America our forefathers were able to revitalize our wildlife-in the face of the same issues you have in Africa- subsistence hunting and market hunting- WITHOUT the use of fences.. It can be done.
"the true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport." - Saxton Pope
I respect your right to feel the way you do- but I think in the long run its the wrong direction if our goal is for those who comes after us to enjoy the same privilege we have- to go afield and chase animals with stick and string- 'with a heart for any fate.'
Good hunting to all of you.
-------------------- “Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche Posts: 8812 | From: Buford GA | Registered: Apr 2003
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There have been quite a few differing intelligent points and questions raised and answered here. Well done guys on keeping it fairly civil! Especially on such a touchy subject. For me hunting is very personal. As I have evolved in my pursuit and love of the outdoors, so have some of my tactics and choices. I think that we should all be free to seek and find what is right for each of us. The Buff that I "know" through his writings, book, and forum participation has always shown himself to be a fun-loving responsible outdoorsman. A man that can tell a great story, yet never grandizes himself as some conqueror of nature. I appreciate Buff sharing his adventure. I look forward to the next one!
-------------------- Have a nice day! Kevin Posts: 871 | From: Austin, Texas | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by killinstuff: If that cat has claws, teeth and lived by catching and eating live critters in the fenced area, that's a wild animal. Nice Lion Buff.
That's the issue. Not the fence itself. As stated, almost all of SA is fenced. Large areas.
The problem a lot of people have with these lions is that they are raised in pens, fed donkey pieces and game farm meat, then driven out and released at the hunting area a week prior to the hunt. I don't have a problem with it as long as the hunter knows what he is getting into. I think it's safe to say that most do.
Posts: 460 | From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Jun 2006
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I know a few guys who have shot lions in SA. Shots were taken from 8-9 yards. Talk about wild animals!
Regarding this fence issue, the smallest fenced area I have hunted was propably 3-4 acres and it was impossible to get close to animals. Difficultness is really not an argument to justify anything in this case.
Over the years I think have seen all possible (unethical to me) hunting practises. Most people just want to shoot something, and I have never critized anybody doing this as long as they know what they are doing. Just not my thing.
Posts: 27 | From: finland | Registered: Feb 2008
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well it has run 6 pages deep and never turned Nasty. It makes me proud to be part of this site. Some liked the story others didn't but nobody started bashing each other. Ray didn't care for my hunt but still took the time to help me set up a Elephant hunt. Great folk hanging out here
Posts: 1103 | From: HALLSVILLE TEXAS | Registered: Jun 2005
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-------------------- "...there are no words that can tell the hidden spirit of the wilderness, that can reveal its mystery, its melancholy, and its charm." Teddy Roosevelt Posts: 1453 | From: Centereach NY | Registered: Jul 2007
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