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» Trad Gang.com » Main Forums » The Shooters FORM Forum » Back tension and expansion. (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Back tension and expansion.
Draven
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I will maybe be against the main stream, but I don't look at back tension at release as an entity per se, I try to understand what gives using it based on what I want to achieve with it. At anchor I have an elbow that should move in a plane paralel with the ground to be capable to move the fingers in the vertical plane with arrow (paralel with your face) while relaxing them. I can achieve this just if I force the shoulder blade of the string hand to "sink" further in the back. Any other move will direct the elbow on an ascendent or descendent path and fingers will leave the face before being totally relaxed (aka plucking the string as result). Try to do this move correctly facing a mirror without a bow. Hold an imaginary bow, an imaginary arrow at the anchor and watch the elbow movement while relaxing the fingers to brush your cheek. I don't feel that "tension" at release as something extra, its a tension as result of something that can get unnoticed if you are snapshooter. It's there, but not as discomfort - the single thing you notice while in action is the discomfort, not something the body is doing naturally. Is there but in a more subtle way as we think.
All this works assuming that you use your triceps and back to get to anchor, not your biceps. If you engage the back just at anchor things go south 99.99% due to the way we are built : stress muscles + short periode of time = rigidity (and this is oposed to the fluidity the archer wants). I think at back tension as something engaged the moment I pull the string, building up through the anchor to release where it was its peak. It's a built-up tension, not the same intensity during the entire cycle as it might look while I read over and over "back tension" without knowing what and how it should really feel.

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McDave
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quote:
Originally posted by Draven:
I think I need to get some definitions there.
What means creeping while you are pulling with your shoulder blade?
I understand that you are overwhelmed by the bow poundage somehow while moving the shoulder blade. And is not a problem of release and pull but bow hand and string elbow. Am I right?
That "static" pull means nothing to me unless is explained as your shoulder blade is reaching the maximum movement in the space it has, without engaging the arm and elbow in the motion after the release. This is a personal thing, depending how mobile is your shoulder blade joint and when during that movement after the anchor relaxation of the fingers happens. I have max 1cm, 1.5cm as travel distance (between shoulder blade to anchor and shoulder blade natural extended) to play with and I am quite sure I don't release in first 0.5cm. But at the end, it counts how I feel it. I don't even think about the actual movements while shooting. I am doing it just here and is wrong in the way that we are not made the same in fine details. Fingers tips touching the face after release = "static" release for me.

Creeping means that the string elbow moves forward while drawing, holding, or releasing the shot. This could be caused by being overbowed, but is more commonly caused by an inability to independently relax the fingers to release the string while maintaining back tension, i.e., relaxing the fingers causes an involuntary partial relaxation of the back muscles. If the relaxation of the back muscles increases, the creep becomes a collapse.

I'm afraid I don't understand your question about static pull (if there was a question), but static pull simply means that increased force by the drawing muscles beyond the force needed to offset the forward force of the bow does not result in rearward movement of the arrow. An example would be the force you would exert pulling a rope that is anchored to a building (static force) vs the force you would exert pulling a spring (dynamic force).

Getting beyond theory, the common remedy for eliminating creeping when drawing the bow dynamically has always been to continually increase back tension through completion of the shot. It was a revelation for me to find out that the same remedy works when drawing statically, leaving very little difference in my mind between the static and dynamic release, other than the obvious fact that more movement occurs in one than the other.

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Draven
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My question was simple. How someone creeps if the pull (static or dynamic) happens? And for me, the answer is : when someone stops pulling at anchor. I think this is what he saw, because I imagine you were not half naked to watch your muscles how they act. And you can see this in the tension in bow arm. But I may be wrong.
If you have another answer, please say it.

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McDave
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quote:
Originally posted by Draven:
My question was simple. How someone creeps if the pull (static or dynamic) happens? And for me, the answer is : when someone stops pulling at anchor.

I agree, except that "stops" may be too strong of a word. Creeping occurs when pulling at anchor is reduced to the extent the rearward force is less than the forward force. Stopping pulling at anchor would probably be more appropriately used with collapsing than creeping.

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TGMM Family of the Bow

I'm a man, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.

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Draven
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Dave I see stop as something different than fluid here - is hard to explain, my bad. I can say for me that at anchor the 5 -10% that were in triceps (90% in back muscles) transfer to the back and this transfer can be done smooth or with hick-ups before release. I might say that those 2 seconds Welch preaches are in relation with this transfer but it might be just a stupidity.
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McDave
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quote:
Originally posted by Draven:
Dave I see stop as something different than fluid here - is hard to explain, my bad. I can say for me that at anchor the 5 -10% that were in triceps (90% in back muscles) transfer to the back and this transfer can be done smooth or with hick-ups before release. I might say that those 2 seconds Welch preaches are in relation with this transfer but it might be just a stupidity.

You may be right about that. Rick says the purpose is to stabilize your body prior to the shot. I do know from personal experience that the 2 second hold makes a huge difference in my accuracy. Rick does not do anything, like consciously aim, or think about anything having to do with the shot sequence during the hold. It was very difficult for me at first to stand there for 2 seconds doing nothing, and hasn't gotten much easier with the years. I have finally arrived at a method that works without driving me crazy, but it might be cheating, I don't know. Rick's breathing method is to breathe in as he draws the bow, and hold his breath until after he releases the shot. My new method is to exhale as I draw the bow, and take in a breath after I come to full draw, then hold it until after I release the shot. The breath that I take in and hold equates to about the 2 second hold, and focusing on my breathing as I draw and hold gives my mind something to do other than go crazy.

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TGMM Family of the Bow

I'm a man, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.

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Draven
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I am with you/him on that. If I think to something at all I shoot like ... That's why what Turner preaches is all wrong FOR ME. I am more accustomed to "No mind" concept and whatever was to be done it was done before the bow was up. But is not the only way - is the hard way.
PS Regarding breathing you don't cheat. You find your way based on what you are taught.

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SAMMO
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The piston top dead center is the best I have heard for pushing Bow to target aside from balanced pulling. I have my hand against my face at anchor and pull with my back and push with my Bow arm and stretch out without slouching over.

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2xDAS17longs
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fnshtr
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Tom Clum Sr. of RMS Gear put on a seminar at ETAR this year covering the biomechanics of shooting while Joel Turner addressed the mental aspects. The one illustration he gave not only stuck with me, but has really helped my form (especially expansion to shot) was to imagine a ball on my string arm shoulder. Once at anchor and on target and maintaining alignment, grab for the imaginary ball (rather than thinking of releasing) with your string hand.

This really helped me.

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54" Java Man Elkheart 50@28
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longbow fanatic 1
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I haven't read the previous answers, but I'm sure you have received solid responses. To your question of moving you shoulder back and down, so long had the pull is done with your rhomboid muscle and not your shoulder muscles that's perfect.
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Jim Casto Jr
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quote:
Originally posted by fnshtr:
Tom Clum Sr. of RMS Gear put on a seminar at ETAR this year covering the biomechanics of shooting... The one illustration he gave... was to imagine a ball on my string arm shoulder. Once at anchor and on target and maintaining alignment, grab for the imaginary ball (rather than thinking of releasing) with your string hand...

Interesting and timely. I've really been struggling this summer with maintaining back tension. I'm throwing a lot of arrows to the left (LH shooter). It's one of those things where you know what's happening, but you just can't TAKE control of it.

I just went out the garage and tried imagining that ball. It seemed to help--a lot. Eager to give it a whirl tomorrow.

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"Archery is really very simple. You just have to do the exact same thing on every shot."
Bill Leslie, July 22, 2017

"Form is everything." Al Cole

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fnshtr
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Jim: Really hope that helps. My problem has always been losing back tension just prior to release. I've gone back and forth between a static (dead) release and a dynamic release attempting to correct my problem. Using a dynamic release I would "pluck" and when I used a static release I would creep/collapse.

Video, especially slo-mo, showed a very slight forward movement of my string hand at release. That is when I realized my problem was maintaining back tension through my release.

Tom Clum said that if we consciously think "relax the fingers" we cannot relax them fast enough to effect a clean release, and we lose back tension. By substituting "grab the ball" for "relax the fingers", the relaxing will be faster, and back tension maintained.

Seems to be helping me!

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54" Java Man Elkheart 50@28
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