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Author Topic: Gun Barreling
YosemiteSam
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quote:
Originally posted by not on the rug:
Update:


1-not finding a consistent and comfortable anchor with it still.
2-it's effective range is about 15-16 yards. After that, arrows are just dropping.
3-I just don't like it

I basically just started drawing with my eyes closed and found that I feel most comfortable with an anchor of my middle finger to the corner of my mouth. From there, I was trying to use the arrow tip as a reference point, but honestly that actually feels weird to me. Like my eyes don't know what to focus on. I feel like I don't know how much of the arrow point to use and was getting some vertical variation in my shots.

So...I decided for the past few days to just shoot without thinking. I have been shooting at 10, 15 and 20 yards. I pick my spot, go through my sequence and let the arrow fly. Miraculously, the arrows seems to be going roughly where I want them to go. I'm noticing more issues with left to right variation than I am with up and down. And I'm noticing those issues as I get more tired.

I also think I need to trim my new tab down a little bit. I got a new Fred Eichler 3 under tab but judging by what others have posted pics of it may be a little too wide and a little too long. Some minor trimming may be helpful

As of now, I'm shooting off the shelf, but I think I may add a rest.

Because this is new to me, it feels foreign and a bit more complex than I thought it would be. It's just as nuanced as shooting a wheelbow

I'll echo McDave -- use proven systems first. Then worry about recreating your own wheel once you've mastered that. Archery is diverse enough that there are lots of styles to learn over a lifetime. Mediterranean release vs thumb. Instinctive vs gap. longbow vs shortbow. Stationary vs moving targets. Everything feels weird when you first try it. Then you develop a feel for it. Take this opportunity to let it be awkward, clumsy & such so that you learn it right the first time. Otherwise, you're more likely to develop "training scars" as one martial arts teacher called them (bad habits from other teachers, self-teaching, etc.).

If your arrows are dropping fast after 15 yards, I'm guessing that you're either shooting way too heavy a weight of arrows, the arrows are coming out sideways and robbing you of speed or the arrow is too high on your face. I get my arrows dropping like that when I'm anchored way up on my cheekbone... Unless I'm shooting a homemade bow... But that's a different beast.

--------------------
"A good hunter...that's somebody the animals COME to."
"Every animal knows way more than you do." -- by a Koyukon hunter, as quoted by R. Nelson.

Posts: 720 | From: CA | Registered: Sep 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
not on the rug
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quote:
Originally posted by YosemiteSam:
quote:
Originally posted by not on the rug:
Update:


1-not finding a consistent and comfortable anchor with it still.
2-it's effective range is about 15-16 yards. After that, arrows are just dropping.
3-I just don't like it

I basically just started drawing with my eyes closed and found that I feel most comfortable with an anchor of my middle finger to the corner of my mouth. From there, I was trying to use the arrow tip as a reference point, but honestly that actually feels weird to me. Like my eyes don't know what to focus on. I feel like I don't know how much of the arrow point to use and was getting some vertical variation in my shots.

So...I decided for the past few days to just shoot without thinking. I have been shooting at 10, 15 and 20 yards. I pick my spot, go through my sequence and let the arrow fly. Miraculously, the arrows seems to be going roughly where I want them to go. I'm noticing more issues with left to right variation than I am with up and down. And I'm noticing those issues as I get more tired.

I also think I need to trim my new tab down a little bit. I got a new Fred Eichler 3 under tab but judging by what others have posted pics of it may be a little too wide and a little too long. Some minor trimming may be helpful

As of now, I'm shooting off the shelf, but I think I may add a rest.

Because this is new to me, it feels foreign and a bit more complex than I thought it would be. It's just as nuanced as shooting a wheelbow

I'll echo McDave -- use proven systems first. Then worry about recreating your own wheel once you've mastered that. Archery is diverse enough that there are lots of styles to learn over a lifetime. Mediterranean release vs thumb. Instinctive vs gap. longbow vs shortbow. Stationary vs moving targets. Everything feels weird when you first try it. Then you develop a feel for it. Take this opportunity to let it be awkward, clumsy & such so that you learn it right the first time. Otherwise, you're more likely to develop "training scars" as one martial arts teacher called them (bad habits from other teachers, self-teaching, etc.).

If your arrows are dropping fast after 15 yards, I'm guessing that you're either shooting way too heavy a weight of arrows, the arrows are coming out sideways and robbing you of speed or the arrow is too high on your face. I get my arrows dropping like that when I'm anchored way up on my cheekbone... Unless I'm shooting a homemade bow... But that's a different beast.

That's the thing. I want to use a proven system, but all the advice I have been given here was to NOT use a proven aiming system and just shoot. So that is what I'm doing.

As for the arrow drop, the arrows are actually on the lighter side of things. I'm sure that the gun barreling (which for me requires a high cheekbone anchor) is the reason. Shooting with a middle finger to corner of my mouth feels the most comfortable with my anatomy and it what I am going to stick with.

I came home from work and shot 36 arrows instinctively today, in groups of 6. I was getting 3-4 of them at a time in a 4-5" group, and tended to have 1 or 2 outliers each time. I was focusing on form and technique and really using back tension to cause the release. All of that feels great actually.

I'm going to put a rest on the bow next week and have the nock height adjusted. I feel like at this point, it may help me be a tad more consistent.

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moebow
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not...rug!!! We aren't saying that you don't want to aim or use a proven aiming system. We ARE saying that you are NOT READY to aim yet. You MUST get to a consistent and repeatable shot BEFORE you decide on an aiming system!!!!! So IF you want the short route to hitting, shoot at 5/6 feet, without aiming until your shot is absolutely solid.

With that approach, you will be aiming and hitting in 3/4 months.

If you select some "proven" aiming method and ONLY concentrate on that, you MAY be hitting the target in a year or two, but again maybe not. Your choice.

Arne

--------------------
11 H Hill bows
3 David Miller bows
4 James Berry bows
USA Archery, Level 4 NTS Coach

Are you willing to give up what you are; to become what you could be?

Posts: 2388 | From: Grand Rapids, Minnesota | Registered: Feb 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
not on the rug
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quote:
Originally posted by moebow:
not...rug!!! We aren't saying that you don't want to aim or use a proven aiming system. We ARE saying that you are NOT READY to aim yet. You MUST get to a consistent and repeatable shot BEFORE you decide on an aiming system!!!!! So IF you want the short route to hitting, shoot at 5/6 feet, without aiming until your shot is absolutely solid.

With that approach, you will be aiming and hitting in 3/4 months.

If you select some "proven" aiming method and ONLY concentrate on that, you MAY be hitting the target in a year or two, but again maybe not. Your choice.

Arne

Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

Why can't I work on my form AND aim at the same time?

When I first got in to compound shooting I wasn't shooting blank bales for months, I was picking spots and hitting them. Sure it took months and even years to get my form right. Sure I still make sure that all of my practice arrows are shot with perfect form. If I don't feel 100% I let off and pause for a few moments before I do it again. But at least I was actually pointing my bow at something.

Why is shooting a stickbow any different than that? I keep seeing and hearing that I shouldn't worry about aiming and that aiming isn't important, but haven't seen anyone explain why that is the case. And from my experience, aiming a stickbow is 1000x harder than aiming a compound, so it seems odd to ignore that for months

I'm appreciative of all of the advice. I'm a "why" person and without the why being answered, I'm having a hard time understanding the process

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moebow
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It is because the compound system has to a great degree engineered the PERSON out of the shot execution. Think about this; you have a let off so don't have very much weight at holding, you have a "wall" that sets your draw length, you have a mechanical release that makes the release MUCH easier, you have sights (peep and pins) that give you alignment.

In single string, you have full weight at full draw, no wall so you have to learn what your full draw position is and get it consistent, you release with fingers(BIG change from a mechanical release)which is an art in itself, you may or may not be using sights, and are probably shooting off the shelf rather than a fall away rest.

Compound experience LARGELY does NOT transfer to trad shooting. There is a huge learning curve involved and that is best learned one thing at a time.

"Why can't I work on my form AND aim at the same time? " You can!! But you will greatly reduce (slow) your progress by trying to do too much at once. Free world and you can do whatever you want or whatever feels good to you. Those of us that have spent many years teaching new shooters like to think that we have a good handle on how to get folks progressing and successful.

As I said earlier, your choice. But again Trad archery is not compound archery and shouldn't be compared.

Good luck with what you decide to do.

Arne

--------------------
11 H Hill bows
3 David Miller bows
4 James Berry bows
USA Archery, Level 4 NTS Coach

Are you willing to give up what you are; to become what you could be?

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not on the rug
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Thank you Arne. That's what I'm looking for. I have been and will continue to work on my form. Obviously for all forms of archery, form is paramount.

I'll continue with this for the time being.

Should I be focusing on anything at all in terms of aiming? Or just pointing at the target and letting it fly?

I guess what I'm asking is should I be looking for something in particular to know when it's time to move forward? How will I know that my form is good and consistent if I'm not aiming at anything in particular and not shooting groups?

Thanks again

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moebow
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Again, start CLOSE and just point bow hand at center of the bale. Learn how the "T" feels with the full weight of the bow at full draw. Learn to hold bow arm still, string hand should come straight back off the string (no flipping of the hand), feel the bow weight in the back not the arm. Just shoot one arrow to start. AND have the bale at shoulder height.

JUST get comfortable with the shot to start. THEN, after a week or so of that move the bale back a little and repeat. Move back again, repeat. As you approach 5 or 6 yards, shot 2 arrows, again just bow hand pointing at center of bale. IF you start banging arrows together move back again. A little at a time!

If you can, post a video so I (we) can see what you are doing that will help a lot!

Don't rush it, this is not a one or two practice thing but several sessions as you move back. Always just pointing the bow hand at the center of the bale.

The tough part of this is IF you want to get good, you do NOT judge your shooting (at this point) by shooting for results. If you are being consistent, you will get groups even if not shooting at a specific point. When you get groups, then will be the time to start "aiming." Not before.

Arne

--------------------
11 H Hill bows
3 David Miller bows
4 James Berry bows
USA Archery, Level 4 NTS Coach

Are you willing to give up what you are; to become what you could be?

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McDave
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Incorporating the discipline of the blank bale into your learning routine is useful because it allows you to focus on a single aspect of your form. For example, you can try six different variations of your grip and focus on how each feels. One of the things that none of us has completely mastered is awareness of what all the parts of our body are doing during the shot process. This awareness is what enables you to know what went wrong with a shot, and how to fix it on the next shot (or better, to not shoot the shot if you catch it in time). Awareness is gained by physically focusing on distinct shot elements as independently as possible, repetitively, and without the interference of cognitive thoughts or value judgements. This is best done with a blank bale. Trying to hit a mark when you’re trying to expand your awareness is a distraction and slows the learning process.

That said, few of us in the Western culture could resist flinging a few arrows at a bullseye or a pinecone, even when we may not be quite “ready” to do that. I don’t see how this hurts anything; just be aware that your real learning is taking place in front of the blank bale.

--------------------
TGMM Family of the Bow

I'm a man, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.

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McDave
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I have always been very curious, and have explored as many different shooting styles as I can find. My tendency early on was to treat them like a menu in a Chinese restaurant: take an element of one person’s style from column A and one from another person’s style from column B.

Later, I found that a “style” consists of a group of elements that work well together, but don’t necessarily mix well with elements of someone else’s style. My advice would be to learn one style completely, and if you want to study a different style, learn it completely and separately. There are elements of good form which all styles seem to have in common, but there are other elements which are unique to a particular style, and don’t mix well with other styles.

Maybe after you become an expert you can develop your own style, which contains some of the unique elements of other styles and a few of your own, but it is best not to do this during the learning process.

--------------------
TGMM Family of the Bow

I'm a man, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.

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not on the rug
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Thanks for those last few posts guys.

Arne- I'll work on starting a few feet away from the target and do what you recommended.

McDave-Understanding our bodies is something that fascinates me. I'm a health and fitness nut, as well as someone who studies and attempts to live in as "zen" of a manner as possible. I meditate daily and one of those meditations is a simple body scan where I focus on and devote a breath or two to every single inch of my body, becoming aware of it and allowing it to be what it is. I feel like this sort of mentality has allowed me to become a better archer (as well as a better person.) I will try to be mindful of my entire body for each shot that I take.

What you describe is basically a body scan throughout the shot process. That makes a lot of sense to me. In shooting my compounds, it's a far more simplistic process. Sure, everything needs to be done correctly, but there is feedback from the bow throughout the entire process. Multiple anchors, kissers, peeps, sights, levels, etc. With a stick and string, I need to be far more aware of everything because none of those external feedback systems exist.

I will keep things as basic as possible and just allow myself to be a man shooting a bow. Nothing more and nothing less. I'm sure I'll give in to tempation here and there and plink at some bullseyes too.

Thanks again guys

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