posted
Like it or not, xbows will eventually be coming to most every state just as surely as Social Security will become insolvent.
The point of "a xbow isn't a bow" isn't the point with state game agencies. The hunter demographics and deer densities/disease threat are what is driving xbows into more seasons. And hunter demographics and deer densities/disease threat numbers aren't good for keeping commonly accepted "regular" archery seasons "pure".
The bogeyman that shadowy insurance executives or shadowy xbow manufactures are setting policy in some smokefilled back room are a fantasy and hurtful to finding real life solutions. It's a sidetrack from some hunters that take us away from the reality, not towards how we deal with the future.
Deer hunter numbers are declining, with no increase envisioned. In fact, steeper declines are expected. Hunter average age is getting older and older, with the outlook of fewer and fewer young hunter replacement. Over 50% of deer hunters are age 41 or older. More and more people live in urban area's and more people are fragmenting woodlots with sub-rural sprawl. Both result in less hunting overall.
For example, a very hunter oriented state like Michigan has lost 22% of our deer hunters since 1998. Nationally, we lost over over 1,000,000 deer hunters since the 1990's.
The average work week has gone from roughly 40 hrs in the late 1960's-early 70's to roughly 50 hrs a week today.
Polls show that recreation requiring physical activity has declined in popularity. Reading was the #1 activity at 35% and watching TV was 2nd favorite at 21%.
Worse yet, more and more of todays youth consider texting their favorite activity. So much so, many kids don't even apply for drivers licenses when they turn 16. Why drive when the internet provides you with contact with all your friends? When I was a kid, everyone couldn't wait for the day they got their drivers license when they turned 16.
Couple that with deer management issues. Growing herds and now disease threat. As CWD creeps, look for states to do whatever possible to kill more deer. States that produce livestock will not tolerate large deer herds kept large to satisfy recreational deer hunters.
A big reason Michigan wanted to allow more xbows was because the office that dealt with handicap permit applications was getting overrun. As the babyboomers age, they were projecting that 30% of the bowhunters could be applying for a permit in future years. At that point, why not legalize them was part of the thinking.
In Michigan's first year with the xbow, we didn't lose bowhunting license sales as we have over the last decade, but instead we gained 20,000 in archery hunters. If you don't think other state game agencies losing hunters don't sit up at that news, one is inserting his ears into the sand, below sea level.
But with all this said, I'm not pro-xbow for all. However, I am a realist and pragmatist. And by being a realist, I say we bowhunters need to think about real ways to get something additional for us, instead of possibly losing it all.
Don't forget, if you don't like xbows, state game agencies could someday abolish separate archery seasons and may have all weapons "deer season". So instead of your neighbor using a xbow in October, in 10-15 years he may be sitting with his .300 Weatherby.
The poison pen comes in the form of those giving advice that we somehow win by using the old strategies that have usually been losers. Like with WWI trench warfare, after the first 3 waves of men all get mowed down before getting 10' of from the top of the wall on a charge, it's time to think of another plan instead of sending out yet another wave.
Not that "just say no" isn't noble, it is. But that strategy will result in many states having a degraded "regular" archery season and trad bowhunters will have gained nothing and have only lost.
Think in terms of the huge gains in muzzleloader season popularity. But in order to do so, one must recall that the first major production inline ML, the MK-85, only came about because states began creating special ML seasons and the number of hunters grew enough to support such a product. If states had never created special ML seasons, there'd be no production inlines and the number of hunters using flintlocks and hammer percussion rifles in regular firearms season would be a small fraction of those using trad bows in regular archery seasons.
It was special muzzleloader seasons that spurred that growth. If ML's can have special season dates, then why not trad bows?
Plain and simple, if one wants to increase participation in deer hunters using trad bows, then advocating for season "trad only" season dates is the best way to do that.
Now, I'm not so sure a lot of current trad bowhunters want a big new crop of bowhunters using trad gear. I think some are happy with the group they're used to. Obviously, I'm sure my suggestions anger some here.
I speak from proven results. I owned a successful fly fishing store in northern Michigan for over a decade. Using such counter-intuitive idea's brought us to be the 2nd biggest St. Croix rod dealer in the Midwest. Conventional thinking often gets only conventional results.
If you want to see trad bow participation jump in a state like Michigan, offer a 2 week long trad bow season in early September. Open it to any deer. (I'd also suggest allowing traditional sidelock muzzleloaders with patch and ball for antlerless deer only).
The result would be that many compound guys that always had interest in trad bows would buy one. But the bigger result would be, many would enjoy using trad bows so much in that special trad season, that they'd end up continuing to use trad bows once regular season came around.
Don't forget, today deer hunters hunt for fun and recreation. Trad bows are more fun. Most use compounds now because it's just what you do. Using a longbow never even dawns on the majority.
Sure trad bows require practice and many will gravitate back to the compound, but many others won't.
If we keep with conventional strategies, in 20 years, we'll end up with far less deer hunters and far more of those left using xbows.
Below is a good read and should worry everyone...
Expert: Decline in hunting numbers real concern
Hunters have been the backbone of the conservation movement in the United States.
But hunting numbers are on the decline.
Robert Holsman, associate professor of wildlife at UW-Stevens Point, says that while the decline is a unquestionably a concern to hunters, to some, the relevant question is: "So what?"
"We all ought to be concerned about it because hunters have carried the mantle of conservation in this country," Holsman said. "It isn't just that they are representing their self-interests, but hunting promotes conservation and an environmental concern. We need to do things that maintain that link."
It is easy for skeptics to view the concern as self-serving, since a variety of entities -- state and federal government agencies, foundations and manufacturers, for instance - benefit financially from such an arrangement.
"But, the bottom line is that it is about maintaining that important link to stewardship," Holsman said.
Make no mistake, hunters have funded the nation's conservation programs. License money and special stamps fund wildlife management, law enforcement and research programs, and help buy wetlands and adjacent nesting habitat used by all types of wildlife.
The federal excise taxes on sporting arms and ammunition fund state wildlife management and research programs.
Hunters such as such as Teddy Roosevelt, J.N. "Ding" Darling, and Aldo Leopold have been stalwarts of the conservation movement.
Yet, hunter numbers are declining.
"If this decline would be a wildlife species, we'd be asking the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to put it on the Endangered Species list," Holsman said recently.
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service reports show there were 19.1 million hunters in 1975. That number declined to 12.5 million in 2006 and by 2025 the number is projected to be 9.1 million.
Nationally the participation rate in hunting is about 1 out of every 20 people. The largest declines by state include Rhode Island (59 percent), California (38 percent) and Iowa (26 percent), the report said.
From 2001 to 2006, the number of small game hunters is down 12 percent in the U.S. and migratory bird hunters are down 22 percent. This is relevant because small game hunting is often the avenue of introduction for many lifelong hunters.
In Wisconsin, according to hunting license sales, about 92 percent of hunters pursue deer, 32 percent stalk small game, 22 percent await wild turkey and 11 percent eye migratory birds. Wisconsin ranked fifth in the sale of hunting licenses in 2005 (with 713,610 licenses sold) behind Texas and Pennsylvania (1 million each) and Michigan (789,244).
Holsman said explanations for the decline in license sales normally include increasing urbanization, demographic changes (people getting older), barriers (especially access to private land) and competition from other forms of entertainment/recreation.
The sleeping giant here is competition. People say they just don't have the time -- heck, they don't have any less time than they ever did, but people just choose to utilize it differently these days.
Holsman hopes it's just a lack of awareness and opportunity.
"We must be more inclusive. It is the right thing to do and we must make hunting more relevant to more people," he said.
Posts: 1691 | From: Michigan | Registered: Apr 2007
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This is my take on it & it may make some of you unhappy. So be it. I love hunting & hope to continue until my last days. I was a wheelie hunter & changed to trad in 2007 because I wanted the extra challange. Fell in love with it and can't even think of bow hunting with anything else. In Dec. 08 had major shoulder surgery but back to shooting trad because I love it so much. I have had to lower draw weight to mid 50s though to save pain in the shoulder. Well, to all of you that are against the cross bow I say you are not anti-hunting but are selfish in ways. If I could not pull my bow back and hunted in PA with a xbow (legal in archery season) would I have been any less of a trad archer than you? No, but I would have still been able to get out there and enjoy myself. I am 43 and who knows when that injury will stop me from the love of trad bows, but when it does I don't want you telling me I am not worthy of enjoying bow season because I need more help from the equipment. Who cares as long as hunters are out there? I say the more choices the more hunters the better. If crossbows get more people out than have at it. I also realize that the deer are not my deer & if someone shoots it with more advanced gear than it was my choice to limit myself. A trad only season would definitely be wlecomed but we don't have one now.
Posts: 1125 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2007
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Better take the threats seriously. Just read on the NC wildlife resources web site today that as of Aug. 1st 2010 crossbows are legal weapons anytime a regular bow is legal. We also lost a week of our archery season to the muzzleloader season. In my opinion crossbows are only a means for gun hunters to hunt the archery season. What hangs me up about the whole deal is in NC you must have a handgun permit to purchase a crossbow. Something is just not right about that picture. I don't have a problem with someone with a legitimate handicap using a crossbow but other than that I have no use for a crosbow. JMO
-------------------- Always strive to do the right thing. Don't beat yourself down when you mess up. Ask for forgivness and keep on keeping on. Posts: 596 | From: Vanceboro, NC | Registered: Aug 2006
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crotch horn : I am sorry; but hunting with a crossbow is not bowhunting. Its just NOT the same thing.
I have had a broken shoulder; and taped my longbow to my foot; and sat in a chair and shot a buck with one arm.
Its about the flight of the arrow; not the blur of the bolt.
I am wondering about the recent supreme court ruling and how that effects carrying arms in any season. When I am riding my horse on elk hunts; or packing in camp or out meat - I carry a handgun... to shoot my livestock if there is a wreck resulting in one of them breaking a leg. That is legal in Idaho. But what does the new interpretation about the second amendment mean to states that say you cannot carry a pistol or gun in bow season; or a crossbow in archery season? It may be illegal to use one- but to have one in possession ? I see nothing on my license to hunt that states I am voluntarily or otherwise: giving up my right to keep and bear arms during a hunting season. And I have question about the right now of any state to do so....
-------------------- THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP. Posts: 2556 | From: North Fork , Idaho | Registered: Feb 2004
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State of Arizona forbids having a firearm on your person while bowhunting during a bowhunting season. But they don't care about having a Cold Steel Trailmaster!
If you can't have a handgun, a Trailmaster is the next best thing.
-------------------- Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect... Posts: 387 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Brian, I never said I believe hunting with a crossbow is bow hunting. As a matter of fact I don't consider them bows at all. I do think the handicapped hunters out there should have the option. I commend you on your taking an animal with your injury but others can not. My point is...lets get everyone together no matter the weapon. A hunter is a hunter & we need to stand united.
Posts: 1125 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2007
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Crotch Horn I have seen a girl with no arms shoot a bow efficiently; and a boy with one arm shoot a bow also- its all about what your trying to achieve- take Tred Barta's example.
And very respectfully - no a hunter is not a hunter; and it will do us harm to have hunters stand united on some issues
Take for instance 'proficiency testing'. Compound and crossbow people can shoot small groups with virtually no practice at 50 yards. I have been in rabid debates about proficiency testing where the compound people ( as they are the majority in a vote by 'bowhunters') want distances set at ranges that are not reasonable to the vast majority of trad bow shooters- and well beyond our expected and desired shot ranges. That is where standing together is a problem; where the rifle hunter-grab a bow and go hunting in bowhunting season hunters start making the rules about who can bowhunt and what the rules should be. We trad hunters could ~all~ vote 'no' on something integral to our traditional bowhunting and be defeated by a 10% 'yes' vote by crossbow and compound bow shooters.
They like long shots- and the now promoter of his 'own' bow - Jim Shockey - states he really likes being able to shoot as well as the 'real experts' at long ranges. ( He mentioned Chuck Adams as one such expert). I really like Shockey - but he is NOT promoting what traditional bowhunters do. Now he practices it sometimes when hunting with whatever weapon- getting in close- but we are seeing more and more shots at 50 yards and further as proof of hunting prowess with a bow.
Yes - I believe if all hunters can agree on something valuable to our existence - it can count.
But we are a minority - and we used to be able to keep crossbows out the archery season. But now- well look what's happening.
-------------------- THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP. Posts: 2556 | From: North Fork , Idaho | Registered: Feb 2004
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A hunter IS a hunter. That doesn't mean they agree with everything you do but who says you are right & they are wrong. Welcome to NY where the numbers will always be against those of us that live upstate or believe in gun ownership. I used to hunt with a compound and it is not as easy to shoot bullseyes consistantly at 40-50 as you make it sound. Much easier than trad but not simple to be that good. I think the debate is more about the ethics of it all. We love the challenge while others may care more about the success. I mean no disrespect to anyone here but to me the more people out there with high hunting ethics the better. That does not include any of the "slob hunters" out there no matter the weapon. I think we all have run into those folks. I hunt with a rifle, shotgun, pistol, muzzle loader, & longbow. I enjoy the longbow the most by far but I will tell you I find it easier for me than my pistols. I also practice as much as possible with every weapon. The first thing my father taught me was you don't take a shot unless you know you can make a killing shot. That doesn't mean you will never miss because we are human. This is getting way to long and drifting way off topic so let me just say. I will not judge a hunter by the weapon they choose. I judge that hunter by how they respect the outdoors and those in it. Have a nice day to all.
Posts: 1125 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2007
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"This is getting way to long and drifting way off topic so let me just say. I will not judge a hunter by the weapon they choose. I judge that hunter by how they respect the outdoors and those in it."
Well said.
Posts: 1076 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Nov 2007
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"If I could not pull my bow back and hunted in PA with a xbow (legal in archery season) would I have been any less of a trad archer than you?"
The answer is yes. Traditional archery is a recurve or longbow. But there is a way I would say crossbows could kinda-sorta be called traditional. Make them to Medieval specs---no sights, no compounds. Like these:
When I see crossbow hunters shooting those, I'll gladly state they're shooting a traditional crossbow.
I don't judge hunters by the weapons they choose, provided they hold to the spirit of a season and don't try getting the camel's nose under the tent. Crossbows in archery season and saying they're "bows" is like saying we should allow a 25mm Chain Gun into firearms season because it's a "gun".
-------------------- Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect... Posts: 387 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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No, I don't think crossbows are bows again for the record. I meant am I less of a trad hunter in spirit not reality. I say no to less in spirit but yes to weapon. Hopefully none of us ever have to be in that position. My point ( and getting back on topic) is I don't consider it a threat to me personally. I respect you if you do. I am sorry if I offended anyone in any way.
Posts: 1125 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2007
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Crotch Horn - the people that 'offend me' most: are those that don't make statements; and open themselves to debate.
Your certainly not to be looked down upon by me or anyone else for what you are saying.
You have every right to say what you believe; and we have no right to do anything other than make our swords sharper in the process of making yours sharper.
I just saw a really nice guy on TV shoot a bison with a rifle. He made a responsible shot and killed the bison.
Now that was not the last bison. But what if it was; and it had to be killed. What would be the way to do it?
In my mind; shooting it with a gun would be a great insult. It might be a fitting end- in the sense that gunfire took massive numbers of bison to almost extinction ( yes I am aware of the politics etc involved).
But if you had to choose the way it should die- which would be the way it would be done?
Personally; I would think either stalking the bison with a Native American/traditional bow would be appropriate; or riding bareback on a horse and shooting it with the same bow.
Hopefully the day will never come when the last bison exists.
But with out a doubt- the last animal ~I~ will take hunting will come- and may have already.
So - look at it from that perspective.
I am shooting a longbow; I make my arrows; and sharpen the heads; and practice - and if I can make another kill - I will not look back at it and regret it in anyway.
My last bow kill was a whitetail doe at less than 20 yards; hit it through the heart and lungs. If the fickle finger of fate takes me- I will not have to look back and wish I hadn't tried using a crossbow to see what it was like; or a gun.
I may not be the last bison; but I am the last me.
-------------------- THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP. Posts: 2556 | From: North Fork , Idaho | Registered: Feb 2004
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The poisoned pen I refer to is from outdoor writers who have gotten free hunts, free gear, and free God knows what else from manufacturers to promote their products. They have a weekly forum to push the crossbow agenda. They do not state facts, they play on people's emotions. They try to envoke images of elderly, young, female, or disabled persons who long to hunt with a crossbow, but are denied their hunt because bowhunters do not want the superior implement to be used during the archery seasons.
It is the bowhunters who fought long and hard to gain respect and be able to bowhunt. It is the bowhunters who spend countless hours practicing to ensure a quick, clean killing shot, at an average of 12 yards. To place a machine, such as the PSE TAC 15, which the manufacturer boasts can shoot 1" groups at 100 yards is against everything that dedicated bowhunter has worked so hard for.
Only 14 states allow the crossbow to be used during any archery season. They like to mislead the public by saying that the crossbow is legal in 48 states. By the way, they should have always said 49, since the crossbow was legal to use in NY, by means of the Modified Crossbow Permit, through the DEC. Now, it will be legal during the Regular Season, and the late MZ season. But, this is not enough. Already the crossbow folks are calling this "watered down", and not what they wanted. It is what I have always said, they want the archery season, and they will not stop until they acheive their goal. Now, maybe the legislators will see them for what they truly are, shameless snakeoil salesmen. They exploit, they lie, they mislead, but the bowhunters are wrong. We are called anti-hunters, elitists, selfish, and likened to animal rights terrorists.
I will do everything that I can to ensure that archery seasons are for archery tackle, and not for crossbows.
Top Shot recently had a episode where the teams had to compete in archery. During the archery part, the marksmen did not fare too well. But then during the elimination part, the two contestants had to shoot crossbows. Bill Troubridge, who owns Excalibur crossbows was the "crossbow expert", who would assist the men. "The hardest part about shooting a crossbow, is learning how to cock it the right way." "You'll be fine, it's just like shooting a rifle." Then the men took their lesson, and the first shot was a bullseye at 40 yards. The marksman said: "This is more like it, it shoots a flatter trajectory." Anyone can go to the History channel and watch the episode for themselves. This is a manufacturer stating the ease of use, and that it is just like a rifle, and then you have two expert marksmen, who did horrible during the archery part, then excelled withing minutes at the crossbow part.
If game agencies wish to prostitute themselves, then they should just say so and not hide behind the guise of "hunter retention" and "new hunter introduction".
-------------------- Vice President Life Member New York Bowhunters, Inc. All the best to you and yours >>>>------------------------> Posts: 1103 | From: New York | Registered: May 2003
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-------------------- THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP. Posts: 2556 | From: North Fork , Idaho | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: the crossbow was legal to use in NY, by means of the Modified Crossbow Permit,
Only if the person is so disabled that they must use a breath tube to use it. I doubt they have issued 100 total - probably far less.
The poison pen is tool not limited to one side.
What NYS bowhunting group has a proposal out to put amz season in the middle of early bow? That is a true threat to our bowseason.
Posts: 1147 | From: Central NY | Registered: Mar 2003
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