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» Trad Gang.com » Main Forums » Hunting Legislation & Policies » IL proposal- Archery devices? (Page 2)

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Author Topic: IL proposal- Archery devices?
Cold Weather
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I used to work as an archery tech for Cabelas. I have now over 40 years experience in archery.

my first ever arrow btw was shot with an xbow. remember it like it was yesterday.

towards people taking the time to learn to shoot-well I can tell you they dont. if you doubt, just go to a range.

it what is more striking, is that there is now much information available on how to shoot compouds and stickbows.

anyway, anyone who thinks an xbow is "easy to shoot" really doesnt have the facts. if it was, how come all the scores with xbows vs compounds show the lower for xbows?

after all, they perform like a firearm-right?

anyway, we are talking of a recreational pastime-archery, bowhunting.

someone wants to go bowhunting with an xbow for fun, relaxation, or recreation its really no concern of anyone else.

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Fox High Sierra
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Cold Weather
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quote:
Originally posted by bjansen:
Cold Weather,

Regarding:

"a newer weapon is not a crossbow..crossbows are certainly bows"

Consider my word "newer" in the original post a synonym for "different". My point is archery season should be left for bows and different or new weapons should not be continually thrown into a dedicated archery season. Crossbows are not bows for many reasons but I would prefer not to argue about something so straight forward. My thought is, that if these "different" weapons (without casting any positive or negative light on there individual merits) are so sought after for use in harvesting deer, a seperate, regulated season should be established for the weapon.

Regardless of definition of a bow, or merits of the various weapons we can probably all agree that a slingshot, a crossbow and a tradiitonal bow all would have different impacts to game and harvest rates. My point is: it would be prudent and best practice to manage those weapons seperately in an effort to best control game impacts as well as hunter recreation hours per resource.


Regarding:

"I havent kept up to date on all the states that have legalized xbows in archery seasons, but it seems to me-judging by increased media coverage in magazines-manufacturers introducing xbows-the increase and acceptance is more and more."

I agree, the acceptance is more and more. It is truly amazing the influence that marketing and promotional dollars can have on people and perceived acceptance. I wish we had similar marketing budgets to pass different messages of what hunting and ethics are to the same public.

I am sorry, but they definitely are bows.

even the very name of them-CROSSBOW-indicates its a type of bow.

I see now, more and more archery companies are introducing xbows.

most recently Mathews has one in their mission line.

there is certainly no reason to argue xbows are not bows-frankly I think its absurd to make such a claim.

because they are bows-and valid archery equipment, I see no reason that they belong anywhere else but an archery season.

what amazes me is some think they belong in firearm seasons-and they definitely are not firearms.

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Fox High Sierra
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ChuckC
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My thoughts are. . they are most definately NOT bows and I also think it is silly to think otherwise.

You see more and more companies introducing crossbows because they are the fastest growing (note. . selling) component of hunting out there. Nobody has them, market them and everybody wants them. That is called marketing. Someone is getting rich off of this, that is why it is happening. Heck, it is a wide open market, you don't even need to convince someone to upgrade cause the new model is 3 fps faster.

I never said they were more accurate than a compound with release and sights (although I hear tales of 1" groups at 100 yards bandied about), they sure are easier to use. .no doubt about that.
ChuckC

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Cold Weather
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Chuck

have you ever shot one?

ever carried one in the woods?

I find them more cumbersome than than conventional tackle. They are slower for a second shot.

group size. well my scope only goes to 50 yards, but I have shot groups offhand that one could put their hand around.

just was done at a mag stand. picked up a copy of Bowhunt America.

hmmm xbows articles in there. even a review on the Mathews xbow.

seen articles in Bow and Arrow, and Bowhunting World as well.

if everyone wants one then there certainly a demand. Come to think of it, I have a good friend who is a dedicated longbow archer. He has an xbow as well.

the views that you entertain are very similar to those when the compound was gaining popularity.

it was claimed ease of use, not a bow, etc..

I recall reading a book called the Archer's Digest-and this was when compounds werent that popular-there was an xbow article in it.

just was on this site:

ibo.net

and they have an xbow division in there.

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Fox High Sierra
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Stringwacker
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I guess people can discuss this issue into eternity and I don't think people change their ideas very much. If you believe the crossbow requires archery skills to shoot, that string propelled is 'important' and hand held and held drawn is not...who is to say your wrong?

On the other hand if hand held, hand drawn is important, but the fact it shoots a bolt from string propulsion on a stock isn't...then who is to say that is also wrong?

Frankly, with all the respect I can convey, if one believes a crossbow is a bow I will respect the view point. If you think the crossbow is a sandwich; I'm good with that as well. Call it whatever you will.

My own opinion (opinion mind you) is that it's a hybrid that has some bow and gun attributes, neither defining what it really is. It's not called a Cross Bow, which in that case 'cross' would define what kind of bow, but rather a "crossbow" which is a noun that defines something totally different...much like the nouns 'seahorse' or 'groundhog'; neither representing an object as the name seems to imply.


My concerns with the crossbow is with the argument itself, based on it's 'just an incremental step' compared to compound which belittles history in that the compound was the great compromise of the sport of bowhunting. The compound allowed women, elderly, and children to participate in the sport and the advantage of the compound bow still promotes the same concepts as now is toted for the crossbow. I suppose the compound lost it's mojo.

Seems to me that an argument of 'inclusion' that actually *excludes* everyone except those who use 'strings' is a bit shallow and self serving. It's a wicked argument that has big shortcomings. Far better to say bow and arrow seasons are fair because they are open to everyone...only limited by the free will choice of individual participation.

In some ways I see the crossbow debate at least to some degree similar to an event in my home state. I can't help but remember how it was said that the newer, more reliable muzzleloaders equipped with scopes, shotgun primers, sabots, electronic ignition wasn't really a big deal...that the weapon still used black powder and the fuss made by 'purist' over the technology was a 'big to do over nothing.' Of course, those pundits were shocked when the state decided that those 'modern' muzzleloaders were so much like single shot centerfire rifles...that they were also legalized for those for special seasons! A few years later, people couldn't remember why we had the silly season the way it was set up and complained they were excluded with the auto rifles. This year primitive weapon (what a joke) season faded into the history books with the stroke of the Governors pen. "Poof'

You see, it's really not about how it's propelled or if it shoots an arrow. What it IS about is does the sport represent what is was intended to be; the reason that it was created as a separate season to begin with? When we blur the lines with weaponry that reminds people of firearms, it will not be long before the crossbow falls in to the same quicksand as the compound...that being it will just be the next spring board for another group whose definition of inclusion is different than our own based on the arguments of how this or that is similar. String and arrows don't mean squat. It don't mean anymore than 'black powder' did to primitive weapon season. Safety in numbers turned out to be a falsehood of propaganda.

States that have adopted crossbows such as Virginia and North Carolina have seen 'string' seasons already reduced in favor of black powder 'inclusion'. Like I said, 'inclusion' is a wicked argument because you don't get to stop it once it's set in motion to your own line in the sand; defined by an individual's definition of what is...and isn't.

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Cold Weather
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"My own opinion (opinion mind you) is that it's a hybrid that has some bow and gun attributes, neither defining what it really is. It's not called a Cross Bow, which in that case 'cross' would define what kind of bow, but rather a "crossbow" which is a noun that defines something totally different...much like the nouns 'seahorse' or 'groundhog'; neither representing an object as the name seems to imply"

longbows are called longbows. just like crossbow is called crossbow.

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Fox High Sierra
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ChuckC
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And rainbows are called rainbows.

There is a point to my arguement. Whatever you call it, it is designed to be easier to utilize, to make the thing better and better. We as humans have a tendancy to do that. At some point, we will reach a tipping point.

I am gonna go on a limb and profess that if compound bows came out in the 70's with the capability that they have today, they would never have been allowed in the bow seasons, especially the seasons of past days.

As I stated, deer herd numbers are currently very high is some areas. Too high, so anything goes. Kill more of them any way you can is the current mentality. But that is not likely to be that way forever. When the stuff hits the fan, and it likely will, the entire bow season is likely to be hurt, because of the better kill rate we now achieve when you add in the compounds and the crossows. It is very unlikely that they will separate out the players, just cut the season.

Look up the McAlester (did I spell it right) military base and their long standing archery hunt. They kept detailed information regarding the hunts. Their numbers sure seemed to indicate that adding compound bows to the mix skewed the kill numbers and made that particular hunt non-sustainable. That was back in the day when compounds were nowhere near as good.

I don't care what you use. If you want to water down the whole thing and use a long range rifle then go for it. Your loss, not mine. But to say that each of these leaps is not incrementally making the process easier is not opening your eyes.

Can someone pick up a longbow and go hunting the same day. Sure. But they are very unlikely to actually hit anything. You need to practice at least a bit. That brings up testing, another issue for another in-depth discussion.

With a compound, I can nearly guarantee that is possible, and with a xbow, there is no doubt in my mind.

Will it change the numbers ? Well, I am pretty sure it will. If the SCI information I quoted is correct, it did already. Give it time to happen, then we shall see. I am worried, though, that it will be too late by then. Big business runs the world, not our legislators, and there is too much money at stake.

Of course, this is just my opinion.


ChuckC

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Cold Weather
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when we see rainbows shoot arrows and listed as archery that will be an point worth discussing.


what does ease of use have to do with anything?

does the xbow put up your treestand for you?

do you just leave it in the woods, and go home and watch youtube in the comfort of your home while it bags a deer for you.

what you really are talking about is equipment restrictions.

perhaps we should not allow compounds in the woods, no laser rangefinders.

there are cameras that one can use to determine the deer.

it goes on and on

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Fox High Sierra
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ChuckC
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Doug. . seriously ?

We are talking about the weapons, not the treestands etc.

The fact that guns allow a much higher success rate than archery is why gun seasons are typically short and archery seasons are typically long. The numer of hours spent per deer unit is much higher for archery than for guns.

If you skew those results (by adding in crossbows, which appear... to allow a higher kill rate) are they gonna shorten the archery season ?

THAT is our issue and concern.
ChuckC

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bjansen
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Precisely.
Posts: 2263 | From: Germantown, WI | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Cold Weather
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quote:
Originally posted by ChuckC:
Doug. . seriously ?

We are talking about the weapons, not the treestands etc.

The fact that guns allow a much higher success rate than archery is why gun seasons are typically short and archery seasons are typically long. The numer of hours spent per deer unit is much higher for archery than for guns.

If you skew those results (by adding in crossbows, which appear... to allow a higher kill rate) are they gonna shorten the archery season ?

THAT is our issue and concern.
ChuckC

now, Chuck

you have now many examples of xbow legal in archery seasons.

so, I would like you to provide one example of where this has happened.

xbows have been in OH for many years. same as WY. Been there in BC many years, as ONT.

none of your doom and gloom theory ever happens.

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Fox High Sierra
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bjansen
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Our Illinois "sling shot" whitetail hunting bill (the original purpose of this thread) was knocked down to allow the slingbow on rough fish only...for now at least.
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bjansen
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The "archery devise" bill is back again for 2014 in IL. Has anyone else seen a new bill introduced like this in a US state.
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ChuckC
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Someone has a product to sell in a niche market. Money to be made. It will be reintroduced every year till they run out of money / persuasion power, or till it is passed.

A redesign of the spear gun is next (because you can put a scope on it, cock it and shoot it easier (see any similarities here ?) and everybody can use it. Not everybody is stout enough to pull a slingshot ! Why should we leave out anybody ?

My opinion.

ChuckC

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Mojostick
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Like Cold Weather, I also worked in the archery dept at Cabela's and I have about 40 years in archery.

I'd also add, I basically agnostic on crossbows. I personally don't like them for able bodied adults and would never use one unless it was physically impossible to draw enough weight to kill game. However, I think there's so many people that need them to hunt for varied reasons and are frankly better off using them if they're actually going to send an arrow at a deer, I don't think they should be banned. As a general rule, I'm not for banning weapons. My exceptions are if a weapon/ammo is inadequate in typical hands, like a .22lr for deer, .410 slug or buckshot for deer. I have no issue with states that ban their use, because anyone can still use a 20ga or 12ga slug out of the same weapon.

Now, as a person with lots of kids recurve bows and light weight bows and with a bow range in the basement and with a big backyard range for all the neighborhood kids to shoot recurves and longbows, I have no problem with kids age 8-14 using a crossbow with adult supervision or senior citizens with a host of aliments. I wish crossbows were legal in Michigan when my dad was still alive. He couldn't qualify for the excessive "handicap" Michigan permit, but he was a cancer and heart attack survivor who still wanted to enjoy bow season. He would have gone with us if he could have used a crossbow. It would have been nice to have my dad enjoy another 5 bow seasons, but the old laws didn't allow it.

And I'll likely get a youth crossbow for my daughter who'll be 9 this Summer. Nothing will make me happier than watching her kill a doe in the youth hunt with it, at close range.

That said, crossbows are not wonder weapons. I know of tons of people that bought crossbows only to sell them and go back to compounds.

Crossbows are very heavy and bulky. They are a major pain while sitting in a tree or getting in or out of a tree. They are very loud. They are game spookers when shot to "uncock". They are very heavy to walk with to the stand. The bolts shed KE quickly and on and on.

Now, at 25-30 yards, anyone who can shoot a pellet gun can do well with a crossbow. However, with the modern compound and all the accessories, a new shooter can be doing the same thing in about half an hour.

Pound for pound, if I had to feed my family by using a bow and arrow, the top game getter would be a very nice compound with all the gadgets and a great release. In the bow and arrow world, nothing is more lethal at varies ranges and varied stand heights than someone with a nice Mathews, Hoyt or Bear compound who's put in some modest practice. Just my two cents.

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