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» Trad Gang.com » Main Forums » Hunting Legislation & Policies » Vote to keep grizzly hunting legal (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Vote to keep grizzly hunting legal
23feetupandhappy
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Done!

Well articulated response Michael [thumbsup]

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The Lord Is My Provider......

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Cory Mattson
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I voted to keep trophy hunting.

seems a set up - if you vote yes it is to do away with the hunt. I did not see the information about so called wanton waste. I do believe it is fine to kill a bear and take only the skin. I have eaten plenty of bears and more than most but I want you to be able to make the call yourself. There are plenty of factors why you might choose not to eat a bear and I won't get into that now other than to point out Grizzlies are often FULL of parasites. I read occasionally where some guy eats a fox, coyote, carp whatever. This is stupidity. You are on top of the food chain start acting like it. One more point if I have good working dogs in camp I don't even want grizzly meat brought into camp.

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Savana River Bow Zone - Trad Bowhunting Club

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Jim Wright
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Strictly out of curiosity, what is expected from us in this country taking a poll on policy in Canada? I don't have any problem with doing so, I'm simply curious is the result from this poll to be used for any purpose?
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forestdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by YosemiteSam:
Personally, I'd rather see a trophy hunter killed by a grizzly than a grizzly killed by a trophy hunter. At least the grizz will eat what he kills.

But don't worry -- I abstain from this vote. The link gave me a poll about hunting in Canada. Far be it from me to tell another country what they should do within their own borders.

While I do not believe in nor agree with trophy hunting, I'd never wish death on a fellow hunter or human being.....

My problem with trophy hunting is that it is done to feed the ego and it goes against the grain of the universes, God's, natures, or whatever you'd like to call it design.

The natives of America, Europe, Africa, and Asia all had respect for the animals they hunted and used every part of it.

With trophy hunting I feel bad not only for the animal being killed, but also for the trophy hunter since the animal is being killed primarily for it's "trophy" but on the other hand it takes a person that does not have good values and is corrupt in the mind (of whom I feel bad for) to waste the flesh of an animal.

I'd like to believe that most traditional archers (real archery) do not kill animals for just their trophy though. Trophy hunting seems like something the high tech materialistic egotistical compounders do to try and impress their friends.

Also someone mentioned that eating fox, coyote, and bear and so on is crazy, but I must say I'd eat it. It's better than the growth hormone, steroid, antibiotic, grain and trash fed "meat" if you want to call it that, crap they sell at the super market.....

I'm going to abstain from voting though.

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Bisch
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Wow!

Every time I go to Africa, I kill all the animals just for trophies, or for my love of the hunt! The only meat I get is what is fed to me while I am there. I know for a fact that almost nothing goes to waste over there, as it is all used by someone. Irregardless of that, I am still hunting just for the trophy aspect of it.

Along the same lines, I love to hunt javelina. Javelina are God's gift to a stalking bowhunter, and they are a blast to hunt. I will not eat javies though, as they are not good table fare. I also will not shoot them if I do not have someone to donate them to that will use them. That being said, I still hunt them just for the trophy, or the fun of the hunt!

Traditional archery is not "real archery"! It is not better than another method of hunting, and I will not degrade others for choosing another method of hunting. It is just the way I choose to do it for myself, and the way I get the enjoyment out of hunting.

Folks who think their way is better, or the only way that is right really amaze me, and there seems to be a lot of that attitude these days!

JMHO

Bisch

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Daz
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quote:
Originally posted by Bisch:

Folks who think their way is better, or the only way that is right really amaze me, and there seems to be a lot of that attitude these days!

JMHO

Bisch

It has nothing to do with "thinking their way is better". It has to do with sound science and ecological management in the 21st century. It is interesting that i still have not seen a valid response that could be provided to non-hunters in justification of this hunt.

In this day and age of information, we as hunters will lose all ability to hunt if we cannot show valid, soundly based reasons for the hunt to the majority of those that vote, namely non-hunters.

The days of the "big tent" theory are gone."We are at the top of the food chain" is the kind of arrogant replies that actually do more harm than good to the long term dialogue around game management policies.

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Less anger, more troubleshooting...

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Bisch
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Sorry, I got a bit off topic, my post above was not in reply to Michael's original post, or to whether or not the grizzleys in BC should be hunted for trophies.

Bisch

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Daz
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Arnette:
quote:
Originally posted by YosemiteSam:
Personally, I'd rather see a trophy hunter killed by a grizzly than a grizzly killed by a trophy hunter. At least the grizz will eat what he kills.

But don't worry -- I abstain from this vote. The link gave me a poll about hunting in Canada. Far be it from me to tell another country what they should do within their own borders.

Really? Weren't you just whining in an ultra long and boring post about hunting in California where the more liberal Americans are having you compete with unchecked (and biologically unhealthy) predator numbers? With all due respect
I do not understand your logic and find it very dehumanizing. You might as well wish I and the others here where hit by a bus!

That's coming from and generally Judeo Christian point of view. I see human beings as totally different than animals, obviously you don't. But let's just take it from a point of you that is likely more similar to yours? A purely scientific point of view based on matters of evolution, natural selection, and general wildlife behavior:

It is widely known that grizzly bears seek out and kill black bears on a regular basis. They also most often don't eat their kill. The same goes for wolves killing coyotes and not eating them as well as coyotes killing foxes etc. so forth and so on. So what I'm saying is that strictly from a scientific point of view we as human beings are the apex predator and are only carrying out our natural predatory instinct to reduce competition. The difference being that we as humans are able to reason out management plans. It's a beautiful thing really! We are the piece to this incredible puzzle that will hold it all together, could it be that earth is depending on us?

If Some of the more liberal folks would get their heads out of their you what's for once they might see that humans are part of the solution. We are a part of our environment just like the grizzly bear.

Interesting, but scientifically non-scientific answer. Predation by other predators is based on carrying capacity and competition as you pointed out. How does a grizzly bear in BC compete with a hunter in Oklahoma?

You cannot have it both ways.Are you a predator at the top of the food chain with an obligation for ecological management because of your brain and "human standing" which means you are "above animals"? This means a valid RATIONAL reason for the hunt. This means that bear is in direct competition for your resource(s). If not, then you are killing strictly for the joy of killing.

You are part of the solution? To what problem? There is not an overpopulation of grizzly bears here. In fact, quite the opposite in many areas of the province.

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Less anger, more troubleshooting...

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JR Belk
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I would only support this if a wanton waste clause was added and I lived in the country in question. I don't agree with any hunting that the animal is not utilized.

Off topic, but the "we are different from the animals" statement is just arrogance. We share the same planet with the animals we hunt. There's not a choice to leave it after you screw up the ecosystem like it's happened in the past. That's the same mentality that's allowed some of the worst decisions made historically concerning the planet and species involved or impacted in those decisions.

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Northern Mist Classic
Northern Mist Whisper
Northern Mist Superior

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forestdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Bisch:
Wow!

Every time I go to Africa, I kill all the animals just for trophies, or for my love of the hunt! The only meat I get is what is fed to me while I am there. I know for a fact that almost nothing goes to waste over there, as it is all used by someone. Irregardless of that, I am still hunting just for the trophy aspect of it.

Along the same lines, I love to hunt javelina. Javelina are God's gift to a stalking bowhunter, and they are a blast to hunt. I will not eat javies though, as they are not good table fare. I also will not shoot them if I do not have someone to donate them to that will use them. That being said, I still hunt them just for the trophy, or the fun of the hunt!


Don't you ever feel guilty going all the way to Africa just to kill an animal from a continent you are even a citizen of and have no part in and not consuming any it's meat and/or not utilizing it's furs and everything else on it's body? Eat what you kill is hunter code #1. I could never live with myself doing something like that I'd feel like crap.

I did some quick research and Javelina are supposedly good eating, one of the first things that popped up was that they are even better eating than wild hogs!

http://www.javelinahunter.com/recipies.htm

quote:
Originally posted by Bisch:

Folks who think their way is better, or the only way that is right really amaze me, and there seems to be a lot of that attitude these days!

Well I have talked to plenty of non hunters and they most definitely believe that the "traditional" method of also eating your game is vastly superior on an ethical and hunter level to that of hunting for trophy. Most people consider trophy hunting immoral.

Regarding archery, even the compounders I know acknowledge that they dislike compound archery and agree that the simplicity of shooting a stickbow, as it has been done for tens of thousands of years is more honorable and satisfactory than using a compound or crossbow!

quote:
Originally posted by Bisch:

Traditional archery is not "real archery"! It is not better than another method of hunting, and I will not degrade others for choosing another method of hunting. It is just the way I choose to do it for myself, and the way I get the enjoyment out of hunting.

How is traditional not real archery? Archery was shot with wooden longbows and recurves along with wooden arrows for the past tens of thousands of years! It has only been within the past 50 or so odd years that compounds have been used along with aluminum and carbon arrows.

The fact is that trophy hunting is not true traditional archery and is a modern thing to serve the ego in today's fast paced materialistic industrialized world. I really don't even see the point in trophy hunting using a traditional bow, one would be better served with a compound, crossbow, or gun.

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Zwickey-Fever
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I have been keeping tabs on this thread since it began that there would be comments of controversy on this particular subject. And to be honest, I don't like what I see here. And I can assure you that the anti hunting movement, which can see this very posting, would enjoy reading this due to the nature of some of these comments. Even though all of us may not see eye to eye on curtain subject matters, we are here on Tradgang because of our similar and common interest in "traditional archery & traditional bow hunting". If you ask 20 different people what traditional archery is, the chances are that you will get 20 different answers in return. With that as our common ground, we should respect each others opinions as well as input. And that does not mean wishing anybody physical harm in any manner.
On the subject matter of "trophy hunting", I am not a fan but I do respect a mans right to trophy hunt. There are numerous subject matters in the world of hunting that I do not favor but I do respect it to sum degree. I don't like high fence hunting nor the importing of exotic game animals but that's just my opinion, and never would I wish a hunter/individual ill will in his or her pursuit. I also do not believe in baiting the game that I hunt, but in turn, someone may say that the buck decoy that I use is a form of baiting. Like I mentioned, everybody is entitled to their opinions as long as it is in a respectful manner.
I have been blessed in harvesting some big bucks in my life, but that was not because I waited for a big trophy buck, it's because they just happened to be the first one into range. I never kill something that I do not eat but one time two years ago. I shot a small buck that had a compound fracture of his shoulder blade and two ribs that was protruding from his hide. People asked why did I waste one of my Iowa buck tags on a animal that was going to die anyways? I made the decision to put him down due to him suffering but advance gangrene had already set in. My point is this, everybody has their own ethics and morals in regards of hunting.
On this particular subject of trophy grizzly hunting in Canada, I did not vote because of two reasons, I firmly believe it is a Canadian issue that they should decide on. I would not like Canada dictating my rules in regulations in regards hunting here in the United States. Also, I do not hunt or desire to hunt in Canada. There's some beautiful land and hunting there I am sure of, but I have no desire.
I also believe this poll is some what baiting us hunters into making certain comments to only be used by the anti-hunting movement against us hunters. Just look at how it's worded. But thank you for posting Michael because we as hunters need to keep tabs on things of such nature.
Sorry for my rant and I hope that I did not ruffle to many feathers with my comments. I just had emergency surgery on 2 strangulated groin hernias yesterday,,,blame the pain meds!!

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Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;
Genesis 27:3

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Bisch
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quote:
Originally posted by forestdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Bisch:
Wow!

Every time I go to Africa, I kill all the animals just for trophies, or for my love of the hunt! The only meat I get is what is fed to me while I am there. I know for a fact that almost nothing goes to waste over there, as it is all used by someone. Irregardless of that, I am still hunting just for the trophy aspect of it.

Along the same lines, I love to hunt javelina. Javelina are God's gift to a stalking bowhunter, and they are a blast to hunt. I will not eat javies though, as they are not good table fare. I also will not shoot them if I do not have someone to donate them to that will use them. That being said, I still hunt them just for the trophy, or the fun of the hunt!


Don't you ever feel guilty going all the way to Africa just to kill an animal from a continent you are even a citizen of and have no part in and not consuming any it's meat and/or not utilizing it's furs and everything else on it's body? Eat what you kill is hunter code #1. I could never live with myself doing something like that I'd feel like crap.

I did some quick research and Javelina are supposedly good eating, one of the first things that popped up was that they are even better eating than wild hogs!

http://www.javelinahunter.com/recipies.htm

quote:
Originally posted by Bisch:

Folks who think their way is better, or the only way that is right really amaze me, and there seems to be a lot of that attitude these days!

Well I have talked to plenty of non hunters and they most definitely believe that the "traditional" method of also eating your game is vastly superior on an ethical and hunter level to that of hunting for trophy. Most people consider trophy hunting immoral.

Regarding archery, even the compounders I know acknowledge that they dislike compound archery and agree that the simplicity of shooting a stickbow, as it has been done for tens of thousands of years is more honorable and satisfactory than using a compound or crossbow!

quote:
Originally posted by Bisch:

Traditional archery is not "real archery"! It is not better than another method of hunting, and I will not degrade others for choosing another method of hunting. It is just the way I choose to do it for myself, and the way I get the enjoyment out of hunting.

How is traditional not real archery? Archery was shot with wooden longbows and recurves along with wooden arrows for the past tens of thousands of years! It has only been within the past 50 or so odd years that compounds have been used along with aluminum and carbon arrows.

The fact is that trophy hunting is not true traditional archery and is a modern thing to serve the ego in today's fast paced materialistic industrialized world. I really don't even see the point in trophy hunting using a traditional bow, one would be better served with a compound, crossbow, or gun.

You are a real piece of work, indeed!

No, I do not feel one bit guilty going to Africa to hunt!

I have eaten javelina, and don't like it. There are a LOT of folks who don't like it. Just because someone puts an article on the internet, does not mean it is so!

I eat almost all the critters I shoot, or I find someone that will.

I guess I'm not traditional enough, and too immoral for this place now!

Bisch

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Bisch
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quote:
Originally posted by forestdweller:
The fact is that trophy hunting is not true traditional archery and is a modern thing to serve the ego in today's fast paced materialistic industrialized world. I really don't even see the point in trophy hunting using a traditional bow, one would be better served with a compound, crossbow, or gun.

This is the biggest bunch of hooey I have ever read!!!!!

Bisch

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forestdweller
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Bisch, I apologize because I'm not here to police or judge people based on their reasons for hunting.

I also was not trying to put anyone on a guilt trip or make anyone feel bad about themselves.

We all have opinions and sometime's it's best to keep your opinions to yourself or at least shared with only those close to you or when asked which is what I should have done especially being on the internet where what you say is seen by thousands of people.

I do respect the fact that you enjoy the thrill of the hunt especially stalk and spot hunting which I am the most fond of.

You hunt for your reasons and I'll hunt for mines. No harm intended and I wish you well and wish for your well being and your safety on your hunts.

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Michael Arnette
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quote:
Originally posted by Daz:
[QUOTE]Interesting, but scientifically non-scientific answer. Predation by other predators is based on carrying capacity and competition as you pointed out. How does a grizzly bear in BC compete with a hunter in Oklahoma?

You cannot have it both ways.Are you a predator at the top of the food chain with an obligation for ecological management because of your brain and "human standing" which means you are "above animals"? This means a valid RATIONAL reason for the hunt. This means that bear is in direct competition for your resource(s). If not, then you are killing strictly for the joy of killing.

You are part of the solution? To what problem? There is not an overpopulation of grizzly bears here. In fact, quite the opposite in many areas of the province.

First I want to say that I agree very much with your point that we as hunters need desperately to maintain a biological and scientific reason for hunting in order for it to remain a right!! This is soooo true and will remain our most important foundation which we cannot lose in the fight to enjoy the privilege of hunting in future years. Second I want to point out that with healthy predator populations and keystone species there is no real need for hunting. In other words the ecosystem would remain balanced without our involvement! That is why I believe the standing up for the control of predatory animals is paramount to keeping the privilege to animals in a wilderness environment. (backyard whitetails and other suburban animals aside)

I really believe that if we lose our privilege to use hunting to control predator populations we will ultimately loose our opportunity to hunt at all in wilderness environments.

That aside here is my rebuttal to your other comments:

1: You mention that my opinion in Oklahoma has nothing to do with the Canadian province of BC. The problem with this is that we all share the planet here. What effects me in Oklahoma effects you in your home state because you have as much a right as I do regardless of where you call home. I think that is another reason why these types of debates get so heated because what you chose effects me to and so on

2: You mention that BC Grizzly bear populations are not in excess. This may or may not be true but it has nothing to do with the total banning of grizzly hunting. We aren't saying that grizzlies should be hunting into extinction. I'd just like to have the opportunity to hunt them someday. There should be a happy medium here
Also, grizzly bears in BC effect the hunt able populations of elk, deer, and especially moose in BC which effects the availability of tags and hunter opportunity for hunters here and there around the globe to hunt them. So just as the grizzly bear kills black bears on site to make resources more available to his kind, I am in favor of the same.

3: You pointed out that I couldn't have it both ways? Well I think you can come to the same conclusion for predator control based on a religious or scientific belief in the obligation to be good stewards of the planet. What I am saying is that niether worldview would make it wrong either scientifically or religiously to kill a grizzly bear strictly for the enjoyment of it and or the manipulation of predator competition to allow for favoring of us as human predators having more hunting availability. I'm saying that scientifically we see this as a pattern in which species prey on each other without hunger and feeding in mind...it is perfectly natural.

4: Lastly and most importantly, I feel that a very dangerous worldview is creeping into our society that Human life can be compared to animal life. That is why I was angry to hear someone wish death on someone else purely based on their point of view. And believe me I'm still pretty angry about that. He has some nerve!

Also, while we are on the subject of eating what we kill and apparently lambasting one of our best members here because he did not personally eat all of his Kudu [dunno]

My question is this: How and why is it wrong to kill and not eat or kill and waste? I can understand it being frowned upon and wasteful but really, what natural or scientific pattern tells us this? If the belief is based on religious beliefs that is a matter of opinion and it needs to be weighed with the balance of our shared ecosystem in mind.

Someone once told it best: "nature never wastes anything"

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