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I was visiting the Black Widow discussion board and read several posts regarding comments about Fred Bear that were made by M.R. James is his latest book. It seems he called Bear the greatest bowhunter of all time, but controversy comes with more stories of Fred and the "Pod".
Fred Asbell responded and I found his comments about Mr. Bear very interesting...so here they are for you to see...
"Fred Bear was a great man, but you must consider that he was also...and maybe more than anything else...a promoter, a salesman. He, as much as anything, believed that legalizing the pod would make bowhunting 100% effective (killing)and everyone would want to be a bowhunter...that's my opinion, because I never heard him say that. But what M.R. James says is totally true and was common knowledge among bowhunters in the 70's. Fred threw his considerable influence behind getting the "pod" legalized. He and Glenn St. Charles had a major falling out because Glenn would not endorse the "pod" and make it an accepted tool for animals entered in P&Y. Initially Fred was a big supporter of P&Y and was on the Board, but he drifted away when Glenn and the Board rejected his ideas (he remained a friend to P&Y, but his support was minimalized.)Many of Fred's animals were taken with the pod...but I don't think he ever attempted to enter them in P&Y. His lion, tiger, cape buffalo, a big moose, etc. were all taken with the "pod" and SCC (succicinal choline chloride.)Look closely at his arrows on the lion and the tiger...watch the film of the buffalo...you'll see what looks to be talcum powder flying off his arrow as he shoots. People who went on some of his hunts had to agree to use the pod...I know this for a fact. He paid for the publishing of a book written by an Adrian Behnke promoting the use of the pod in the early '80's (don't hold me to that date.) It's an interesting part of our history. His support was covered up, always, by Bear. Someone made a comment about Bob Kelly...he and Fred would not speak to each other because of their differences on the "pod." He hated the compound bow and the release, and Bear...when he was in charge...didn't have one for several years. Fred went to his grave saying they were the worst thing that ever happened to archery/bowhunting...but out front he came off as supporting them. He thought the poison arrow was the saviour of bowhunting, and he seemed to support the crossbow too. This is very long, convulted story that winds through many years, but it was fairly well known in bowhunting in the '70's. PBS (Professional Bowhunters Society) published copies of Fred's patent on the pod off and on for many years. There were a couple of articles written criticizing the "pod" in BOWHUNTER MAGAZINE...I wrote one of them. gfa"
-------------------- Lon Scott Posts: 4344 | From: Auburn, Washington | Registered: Mar 2003
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I think M.R just needed to make a little money and by tossing a few guy's to the sharks what the hell huh ? he got paid.I would consider M.R.James and anti-hunter for his actions,he's a scum bag and sleezy dirt ball and I hope his book changes some Bear Archery tackle collecters minds and they decide to sell thier collections.....prices going down anyone.I can't say how I really feel !!!!!!!! bowdoc
Posts: 7927 | From: Seattle Wa. | Registered: Dec 2004
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Fred did promote the POD. But you have to keep in mind that it was something new on the market that he got behind and expirimented with. It is a fact that you can see some of Fred's old videos where you see the puff explode when he shot. THis was a problem with the baloon pd when shot out of an extra heavy bow. The power of the shot caused the POD to empty when shot instead pof holding intergrity until it hit the animal
The POD was a really controversial item in it's day. Ultimately it was scorned and did not gain popularity at all, except in Mississippi where it was legal. Still may be for all I know. Fred did not invent the POD, I think it was a doctor from Jackson Mississippi that originated it.
It is an interesting part of our history, but I know for a fact that it is considered taboo here on Tradgang. The moderators do not want people to get curious about it and want to try it out.
I used it in Mississippi, and it is very effective. However, it carries strong moral associations with its use. The chemical used (succicinal choline chloride) commonly called anectine was illigal to get because it was a controled substance. However, if you could get it, you could legally use it in Mississippi. Kind of a catch 22.
In any case...Fred used it, and promoted it, but no more than he promoted the compound bow or any other inovation that he could market. THe compound bow was accepted and legalized...the POD was not. Just one more concept, item, idea to see where it would go.
What if Fred or Pearson had never explored the take down bow, phenolic in risers, fastflite strings, etc... That is how we get improvements in the technology of our sport. We try things.
-------------------- JACK MILLET-TBG,TGMM Family of the Bow
"Don't worry about tomorrow. If the sun doesn't come up in the morning, we will play in the dark" - ME
The most important part of your hunting setup is the broadhead. The rest is just the delivery system. Posts: 4086 | From: WHITE, GA | Registered: Jul 2003
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As Asbell says, it is just his(Asbell's) opinion on the matter. 'Common knowledge" doesn't support his, or any argument, and a lot of factual information can be lost in the 'long and convaluted story'.
I would find it interesting to find out how Bear "covered" up Fred's alledged use of the pod since most of Fred's hunting films were shot in the '50's and '60's, well before use of the pod was being debated. It looks that if Fred was such a supporter of the pod, it would have been mentioned regularly in his films and writings.
As far as Fred not entering animals into P&Y, could anyone provide a list of animals Fred took that would qualify back, then and were not entered? Lion, tiger and cape buffalo are not eligible. As far as the 'talc powder' when Fred the buffalo-why would a pod release it's chemical upon the bow firing? According to Bear's pod patent, the chemical would be released when the 'balloon' was peeled back upon entering the animal. So what creates the 'puff' when the shot is made? How about dust or moisture on the fletch of the arrows.
As Papalapin states, Fred didn't invent the pod, but he did hold a patent for one. Anyone can look this up through the US Patent Office website.
I always enjoy reading and learning about bowhunting history but seeing controversy stirred up for the sake of selling is sad. Even worse is many of the people involved are no longer with us to defend themselves or straighten us out.
Posts: 549 | From: east ky | Registered: Apr 2003
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Huh...Poison arrows.I've never heard about any of this before(Hey I'm only 28).
-------------------- The shoes,they don't make the man.. >>>>--TGMM family of the bow---> Them that don't know him won't like him and them that do sometimes won't know how to take him. Posts: 2133 | From: Wells,Vt | Registered: Oct 2008
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Hey Guys, I just emailed Bowdoc about this and I'd like to offer a slightly different look at this old controversy if it's okay. I try never to add to the issue when the occasional bone of contention gets thrown out and I hope I can make my point of view understood without offending anyone, including and especially the memory of Mr. Bear. I started to get interested in bowhunting in the early sixties, largely as a result of reading articles about Bear's hunts in the magazines in the barber's shop and the occasional TV program. A local hardware store sold archery tacle and were Bear dealers along with Pearson and Shakespeare. The sold arrows, fiberglass and wood with the Razorheads and Deadheads and Zwickey Eskimos already glued on. Really the only thing that kept bowhunting from really booming was a lack of big game to hunt. We had a short deer season but darn few deer. Much of the country was this way. Its a good thing too, in a way, because most of the men who bought all that bowhunting tackle rarely shot their bows enough to become even marginal bow shots and most of the broadheads were stuck in quivers with the assumption that they were new so they were sharp. I sincerely hate to think of the result if there had been game herds comparable to what we have today. The wound rate would have been offensive to all of us. Most archers ( for lack of a better term) knew nothing or next to nothing about tuning their equipment or matching arrows to bows, and the list goes on. Please don't think I'm implying "all" when I say most and for those who have a history of bowhunting in their family, please understand I am implying nothing about anyone's Grandfather, or uncles or anyone else. I just know what I saw here. I honestly believe that Fred Bear's support of the pod was fueled by his concern for the quarry and the future of the sport as opposed to "selling" gear. Remember we have over sixty years between that time and now in which knowledge about equipment, woodsmanship, and even big game anatomy has grown and been made available to the average hunter. We all read the vehement posts dedicated to "slob" hunters and unethical practices on this and other sites and I'm afraid we assume these issues were as prevelant in the "good ol' days" as they are now but I'm almost certain that that was not the case except for those in the inner circles of the developing sport- The Bears, St Charles, Kellys, Stephensons and their ilk were exceptional in their understanding and expertise with this type of hunting. Although I haven't read a quote from Bear that directly supports my suspicions, I still suspect that Bear felt an enormous responsibility for the humane treatment of the game that was going to be pursued by neophyte bowman that he had equipped and to a large degree inspired to hunt with equipment they probably weren't very accomplished at using. You all know and have accepted the demands for practice and study that this sport demands because for most of us, it is a given fact. Most of us have worked hard, even if it has been a labor of love, to hone our skills and expand our knowledge. I feel- can never prove it of course- that Bear saw the pod as a lesser of two evils and as a potential kind of damage control for the time it would take for the overall majority of bowhunters to become as self-aware and responsible as I hope we have become as a group. Merrill Petowsky called Fred Bear a "practicing environmentalist" and as such Bear would have opposed careless hunting practices and the unrecovered game that resulted from them. If they could not be eliminated in a timely way then it isn't unreasonable to try measures that would tip the odds more in favor of the less than accomplished archer/hunter who made up the majority of the industry's customer base. Bear once said, quoting a comic strip hedgehog named Pogo,in regard to the future of hunting, "I have seen the enemy, and he is us." Even if I don't happen to agree with the man's point of view regarding the pod as a viable method, I would never question his motives in promoting it as means to reduce woundings and the number of unrecovered animals. Most of us would tell someone we felt was unprepared to hunt with a bow and arrow to use a gun but most of us don't manufacture bowhunting tackle. If ever anyone in our sport has earned our respect and a certain amount of loyalty its Fred Bear along with Glen St. Charles, Ben Pearson, Hill, etc. I hope I haven't offended anyone and I apologize for the length of this response. Grant
Posts: 1262 | From: So. Central Kentucky | Registered: Sep 2006
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Google "succinylcholine" and find it used for pregnant women as a muscle relaxant prior to delivery. Google "poison arrows" and find that the British colonial governments banned them in Africa before Fred was born.
If Fred wanted to drug animals, why use a broadhead to bleed out the drug? A needle to inject, like a tranquilizer dart, would be more effective. He would also throw away his 65 pound bow and use a bow to jab, not slice through, his game.
What a load of crap. In the 70s, Bear was becoming a conservationist, and the yahoos out shooting pods because they couldn't hit the side of a barn were not Fred. If he wanted to drug animals, he would have been filming "Wild Kingdom" with Marlon Perkins. (Remember the Mutual of Omaha insurance pitches?)
Posts: 715 | From: Maryland | Registered: Jul 2007
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I guess I'm not as passionate about this topic as many of you and am reluctant to pass judgment one way or the other. However, I am passionate about acquiring information ("just the facts, mam").
I've really enyoyed reading the previous posts here with hopes they will help us separate emotion or fantasy and the truth.
Grant, your post was especially enlightening as it brought back memories of my early adventures into bowhunting. As a Tennessee high school lad in the early 60's, I acquired a used 45# Ben Pearson and then bought some wood arrows from the local Western Auto store. The BP Deadheads were already attached. Unfortunately, I didn't have a file and don't think I even test fired a shot before taking to the woods. I got shots...and luckily never drew blood.
I remember my cousin and I discussing the pod at the time and wished we had a way to get it. I was 15 years old.
It was 10 years before I really started to think this bowhunting was serious business.
-------------------- Lon Scott Posts: 4344 | From: Auburn, Washington | Registered: Mar 2003
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Somebody show me Fred Bear's magic bullet, the one m.c. hammer, er, m.r. james saw on the grassy knoll.
Just the facts.
The pod was scrapped by anyone with sense or ethics because it encouraged the "Kill it fast and easy" crowd to make "Hail Mary" shots instead of learning to shoot.
Just the facts.
m.r. james sole motive is to sell magazines. A couple of years ago he was boasting about brown nosing Bush, now I hope he crawls all the way in and stays there.
Just the facts.
Fred Bear had class.
Posts: 715 | From: Maryland | Registered: Jul 2007
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Fred was a businessman that came to archery late in his life compared to many. If he hadn't seized onto it so wholeheartedly many would be here today. The hunting films were to promote his tackle and help sales just as much of Howard Hills films were for his bows. There is nothing wrong with that and it is still done today. America is about opportunity and hard work which Fred took advantage of and did. He was an inventor and liked pushing the envelope of his time. There are bowyers out there today following in his footsteps. Some ideas will succeed and some will fail as always, but if they don't try archery won't move forward. To hold any of the pioneers of our sport to today's "standards" is a disservice to all they accomplished. The groundwork they laid made all of this possible. Folks looking to twist what they poured their life's work into to capitalize today, well if they could accomplish something lasting on their own I guess they would be to busy for the foolishness.
-------------------- TGMM Family of the Bow For hunting to have a future, we must invest ourselves in future hunters.
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It was for sure the magic bullet of archery no dout about that guy's,pigmy's been using the stuff for 3,000,000,000 years and it works great.All you have to do was get that POD under the skin and it would start working(if it broke open),better if it were into the meat tissue and really good in the lungs.But the liver was best hit of all by far.That flooded the critters system with the SH&^ super fast and the beast went down quicker then a $20.00 flatbacker on saturday night.The first phase of the POD's were simpely a small rubber finger protecter(little tiny jimmyhats)and black tape.They would kind of peel back sometimes when shot from heavy weight bows and you would get the SH&% in your eye's iffen you was stalking your critter with the wind in your face.Hey M.R.needed to make some money,nothing wrong with killing a few friends and getting paid for it.Thats just good business.It ai'nt nothing personal just the money.Folks tossing friends under the bus to market thier works and make money or Fred shooting a big cape with the POD to market his work and make money same difference in my book no big deal.What the hell you have got to go with what your heart tells you to do.Sometimes good,sometimes not so good dreams and ideas will come from it but you gotta go with what you really believe in win lose or draw.I'am going to become the new cruisadder for use of the POD.Think of it,when a broadhead thread comes up and some dude says this is the best broadhead ever built...the bowdoc can pipe in and say horse shirt you fool.I got the baddest broadhead in town.No broadhead could out proform the POD thats true.Next week we will get into the topic of what happens to about 1 in 10,000 people who eat meat that has been killed using the POD...thats pretty cool too....bowdoc
Posts: 7927 | From: Seattle Wa. | Registered: Dec 2004
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As soon as I get caught up today,I will post some pictures of people who have consumed the meat harvested by the pods.More so hunters who have eaten the organs heart liver things like that,man its ugly..OK just kidding I don't have pics of anyone who's eaten it....but I did do a little research and found out it can cause death in some people about 1 in 10,000 will fall to the same fate as the critter that was shot with the pod.Stiffness in your joints and then you can't move at all as your organs start shutting down.Last thing to go is your brain and eye sight.You are seeing the bastard start to consume your flesh while your still alive.But all is not lost for the beast as yet..24 hours later one of the consumers of said meat is dead also....Pretty cool huh ? FDA played a roll in the use of it as well.bowdoc
Posts: 7927 | From: Seattle Wa. | Registered: Dec 2004
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Dr. R. P. Herrington, an optometrist, invented and developed the chemical delivery system that is generically called “the pod.” In 1970 he was the Designer-Manufacturer of “the pod.”
He began experimenting with the tranquilizer arrow in 1960. He put together an experimental hunt along with the Mississippi game and fish in 1970 to promote “the pod.” Fred Bear, G. Howard Gillelan, Russell Tinsley, Byron Dalrymple, Jim Dougherty, Clare Conley, John Lanigan and some others were in attendance.
This delivery system can be directly traced back to the late Dr. James H. Jenkins, Professor Emeritus of the Warnell School of Forestry and Natural Resources. My interest in this subject began in 1970 when introduced to this subject in a class by Dr. Ernie Provost, another pioneer in tranquilizer capture techniques. I’m a 1972 graduate of the Warnell School of Foresty and Natural Resources.
I last interviewed Dr. Jenkins in 2002 and was planning to revisit him about the subject when he died in 2006. I also interviewed one of the Mississippi Biologists present during the 1970 hunt and have another interview or two working.
The first published use of the “Hypo-Arrow” I have in my files is from February 1961. A good amount of published material exists between that time and 1965 when Dan Quillian’s article on the subject elicited some heated commentary.
This subject went underground for awhile and resurfaced in 1970 with Dr. Herrington’s experimental hunt in Mississippi with “the pod.” I have published material through 1979. Published information has been scarce since, but with the arrival of the internet, this subject pops up on an average of once a year.
“The Pod” is part of our history, like it or not, and deserves an honest treatment. By that I mean the factual story. Unfortunately, most of the folks with first hand information are quickly declining, but likely there are some published accounts I’ve missed.
If anyone has good, sound information and would allow me to add it to my files, feel free to contact me.
Posts: 807 | From: Ruston, LA | Registered: Apr 2003
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