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» Trad Gang.com » Main Forums » The Shooters FORM Forum » Honest Question and Call out to all Pyschotrigger Aficionadas (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Honest Question and Call out to all Pyschotrigger Aficionadas
KSdan
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Absolutely John. There is TONS of room for discussion/disagreement. Of the many years I have been on TG, my experience is that for the most part there has been a fair nature of discussion. I am always trying to learn and appreciate the various views and experiences. Thus the reason I even posted this thread. . . Enjoy Schulz's instruction. It is full of good stuff. . .

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If we're not supposed to eat animals ... how come they're made out of meat? ~anon

Bears can attack people- although fewer people have been killed by bears than in all WWI and WWII combined.

Posts: 2762 | From: Kansas | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KeganM
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Dan, I had the good fortune to meet and shoot with Joel a few times at ETAR. He's a great guy and a seriously passionate hunter. He's a professional police/SWAT shooting instructor I believe so he has lots of experience coaching shooters (guns or bows) under pressure. His approach was designed for pressure situations, but it's still up to us to execute the shot.

Not that I'm insisting you should use his approach! Whatever works best for you. Lots of folks kill critters without psycho triggers. I'm a huge Hill/Shulz fan but the style just didn't work as well for me. Who knows, might work for you!

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jabodnar
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This may end up rambling, but here are my thoughts after switching to Joelís method and finding very good results. Iím hoping this may clear some things up for people that have heard of Joelís method, but maybe havenít taken the course. Iím also NOT saying you ďhaveĒ to use a psycho trigger, or youíre doing it wrong. Shoot a bow however you want to. If you want to snap shoot and are happy with your results thatís fantastic. Howard Hill and Fred Bear were amazing shots. Archery can be like throwing a baseball, but not everybody is born a MLB pitcher, nor does everybody have the capacity to get there.

For myself, I had a little bit of TP where I had to shoot as soon as my sight picture looked correct. I shoot with split vision. I focus on the spot I want to hit, but definitely see the arrow in my sight picture. I could get to anchor fine, but most of the time I couldnít settle into the shot and would drive by the target, plucking a bad release on the way. There were days where I couldnít miss, I could hit a softball at 40 yards no problem. But then there were days where I could barely keep them on the target at 20 yards.

I think there may be a bit of confusion on what I feel is Joelís take on the psycho trigger and how it works. The trigger in and of itself doesnít give results or cure the different cases of TP. Instead you get to anchor, settle your sighting process (doesnít matter if itís instinctive, split, gap, etc), and then push all of that to your subconscious. You have 1 goal at this point, focus on whatever movement gets you to your psychotrigger. This movement should be small and you must be in total control of it. In my understanding this is the most important part of Joelís method and why he says, ďit will not work for you, you must work for itĒ. Itís difficult, but learning to erase those other thoughts is key.

For me using a clicker I am 100% concentrated on expansion. My subconscious lets my sight picture float. I am still looking at what I want to hit, but I am only thinking about expansion. If my sight picture looks wrong (or an animal moves) my subconscious will notice, I can stop expanding, get back on target, and then refocus on the movement to trigger. During practice, if my thoughts drift, or Iím wondering when the clicker is going to go off, I let down. This is the ideal, I still struggle with it sometimes.

This entire focus on the small movement is why I think you can keep long term benefits with a psychotrigger vs the temporary benefits you see when you make a small change to your shot. Every time I changed anchor, or went from split, to 2 under (Toelke), to 3 under I saw great improvement for a week or two, then back to the same issues. There was something new and I had to concentrate on that, but then it became second nature and I would have issues again. Iíve been shooting with the clicker for 9 months and have not had any issues since.

It did not instantly cure my issues. In fact, I shot worse at first. But as I learned to control that movement and keep focus on it, my shooting has definitely improved. Hitting the X is not the intent, but shooting a controlled shot is. I would rather have a shot slightly off, but that I totally controlled, than a shot I didnít focus on randomly hit the bullseye.

The great thing about all of this, is that this doesnít prevent me from shooting a quick shot in the moment at an animal at point blank range. (Joel may argue with my thoughts on thisÖ). I have ingrained better form with the trigger, which will only help with muscle memory if I ever have a split instant shot opportunity. But if I ever do decide to do that, it will be a conscious decision to, not b/c I blacked out and lost control

Your results may vary. To the OPís original question, you can use the finger to mouth as a trigger. If it works, then great. But in my opinion it doesnít follow the intent of Joelís teaching (and thatís fine!). There are many amazing archers that donít use a psychotrigger. Some may snap shoot, guys like Rod Jenkins or John Demmer have the mental fortitude to separate aiming from wanting to release the arrow. Something I could not do 100% of the time.

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KSdan
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I get it Kegan. Good encouragement. Also, the few times I talked with Joel I was equally impressed with much about him.

Lots of variables here for sure. Appreciate all the input as I recover and re-evaluate my shooting style.

Like most here on TG I suspect- I just want to be the best bowhunter I can be. With some great successes in my past, I can only wish I had a few of those moments back when the monster buck made a mistake. . . and I blew it! Arghh. Hopefully fewer of those in my future.

Thanks guys
Dan in KS

--------------------
If we're not supposed to eat animals ... how come they're made out of meat? ~anon

Bears can attack people- although fewer people have been killed by bears than in all WWI and WWII combined.

Posts: 2762 | From: Kansas | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KSdan
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Jon. Your post doesn't feel like rambling at all. Some very good insights. You also touched on one of my points. Guys changing things seems to work for a while but no matter what method they end up back at the same place with performance anxiety

Thanks for the input.
Dan

--------------------
If we're not supposed to eat animals ... how come they're made out of meat? ~anon

Bears can attack people- although fewer people have been killed by bears than in all WWI and WWII combined.

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Ray Johnson
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I had TP for years. I tried every cure possible and all failed until I started using Joel's system. I tried the Rick Welch style for several years but I just could not hold for any amount of time and still make a good shot. I could hold using Rick Welch method but I collapsed on the shot 75% of the time. I have been using Joel's system for a while now and am shooting better than I ever have. I can hold all day long and let down at any point during the shot process. I come to anchor and pull. pull, pull until the feather touches my nose. I am usually at anchor for 4-6 seconds.
I am concerned aboiut using this method when hunting. I have not hunted yet using this method. I ordinarily release as soon as I'm on target when hunting. I have got to keep my thoughts on pulling until my trigger is reached. I have done very well shooting tournaments this year but drawing on a deer is not 3D. I've been really working on this to get prepared for this upcoming season.

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YosemiteSam
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I use 2 different psycho triggers depending on my bow -- selfbow vs recurve. But it works for me better than anything else I've tried. Anything that helps YOU hit the mark, is fine as far as I see things. The proof is on the paper.

As for hunting vs target shooting, I can't say as far as archery hunting is concerned (still working on that). But when looking at deer through a rifle scope, I've still gone through my mental shot checklist. Sometimes, I've gone through it all up to the trigger press, then started over back to verifying a secure rest because it didn't feel right the first time. I don't expect I would behave differently when using a bow. But I'll have to let you know.

Some of the older videos that advocate between hunting methods and target methods don't line up for me. Taking the methods of an exceptional shooter and applying them to ordinary people seems like a good idea at first. But you have to consider that those are ALREADY exceptional shooters. They may have done extremely well with ANY method they employed because they're already gifted athletes (survivorship bias, for the statistics nerds out there). In other words, for exceptional shooters, the method is often secondary to their pure, raw talent. It can't always be copied by average folks with the expectation of similar results. Sometimes it can. But it's not some sort of scientific law as it's made out to be. I suspect that some of that is just good salesmanship -- "You can do this too for only $19.95!"

I see clickers & other psycho-triggers as the average joe/jane's method to achieve good results if nothing else is working. Some folks can wingshoot half a dozen clays out of the air with their Benelli slung backward over their shoulder using a mirror or some variation of "the force." It's cool to watch. But nobody would ever recommend to teach that as a method to new or average shooters. Besides, there's no need to rush a hunting shot. If a deer is on the move, I'm going to let it walk. I learned that lesson many years ago.

If you're wingshooting discs or birds, well, that's different. Snap shoot away! I don't know how else you're going to do that. Marksmanship and wing shooting are fundamentally different activities. Hunting is not target shooting but employs target shooting at a single point in time during the hunt. But executing a precise shot is the same in both domains. However you best achieve that is just fine.

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"A good hunter...that's somebody the animals COME to."
"Every animal knows way more than you do." -- by a Koyukon hunter, as quoted by R. Nelson.

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YosemiteSam
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quote:
Originally posted by KSdan:
As a side note: I professionally travel/teach nationally and Internationally on theology/philosophy. I can assure you all world-views are mutually exclusive. For another conversation in another place. . . [Smile]

I think McDave's point is just that there are many ways to do something well. As for academic or professional credentials, the only papers that really matter here are ones with little half-inch circular holes punched in them, right?

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"A good hunter...that's somebody the animals COME to."
"Every animal knows way more than you do." -- by a Koyukon hunter, as quoted by R. Nelson.

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McDave
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quote:
Originally posted by YosemiteSam:
quote:
Originally posted by KSdan:
As a side note: I professionally travel/teach nationally and Internationally on theology/philosophy. I can assure you all world-views are mutually exclusive. For another conversation in another place. . . [Smile]

I think McDave's point is just that there are many ways to do something well. As for academic or professional credentials, the only papers that really matter here are ones with little half-inch circular holes punched in them, right?
I did let a little of my world view slip into my comments, so I consider myself fair game for KSdan's observations. As far as I'm concerned, both my remarks and KSdan's were made in a friendly manner, in the same spirit as the religious or philosophical beliefs that are expressed in many members' tag lines. As long as nobody tries to impose their beliefs on any other member or dwell on them to the extent that it detracts from our mission of exploring traditional archery, it's fine with me. As far as another conversation in another place, I'm sure that's something that both KSdan and I would enjoy if the opportunity arises.

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TGMM Family of the Bow

I'm a man, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.

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KSdan
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Perfect and great response McDave. . . absolutely would enjoy the honest/civil discussion over ones favorite beverage or a campfire.

Yosemite- Thanks for the thoughts. Also- I get your follow-up point as to Dave's point. . .Please don't misunderstand "credentials" - as it doesn't make me omniscient. Thought I would throw a correction for reflection out there as that particular area referenced is my wheel house in vocational life. . .As stated- another place than TG.

Appreciate the civil discourse here.

Dan in KS

--------------------
If we're not supposed to eat animals ... how come they're made out of meat? ~anon

Bears can attack people- although fewer people have been killed by bears than in all WWI and WWII combined.

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KeganM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ray Johnson:
I am concerned about using this method when hunting. I have not hunted yet using this method. I ordinarily release as soon as I'm on target when hunting. I have got to keep my thoughts on pulling until my trigger is reached. I have done very well shooting tournaments this year but drawing on a deer is not 3D. I've been really working on this to get prepared for this upcoming season.

I had this issue when I started using it, too. Deer fever messing with my target panic lol.

Any time I deviated though, I would miss by a mile. Just have to make a good shot and the arrow will go where it's supposed to.

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