Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: AlbertaBow on December 27, 2015, 12:58:00 AM
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What kind of 3 arrow groups are you guys shooting at 20 yards?
I know what's average/good/great for a compound bow. But don't know any other traditional shooters.
Always striving for better but just curious what is good for wood arrows and a stickbow.
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I think a good shot would run 6" at 20 or slightly better on good days.
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Depends I agree with michael. But I have had some great groups will all arrows touching at 20. Just depends on the day.
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I don't know about just 3 arrows.Thats a small sample.
I think it has been stated by some expert shots who shoot the 300 round.That if you shoot a 300 round at 20 yards with a barebow.Which is 60 arrows and average about a 6 inch group over the course of those 60 arrows.You would be considered a consistant and very good to excellent shot.
Hunting is a different game though and I think keeping most your arrows (say 80%) in the kill zone shooting a challenging 3-D round at around 20 yards average distance is pretty good shooting.Shooting downhill,uphill,from treestands and around objects or under objects makes for realisticpractice.Kneeling,sitting,Squating,canting the bow to an extreme etc.
In cloverdale IN. at the Cloverdale Nationals for example you got 5 points for any arrow in the kill zone when I shot their.Thier were 40 targets.I would say average distance was around 20 yards.With some farther and some closer.Different targets.Mostly deer sized.But some smaller like groundhogs,coyotes etc.
If you made 32 kill hits that would be 80% and your score would be 160.Thats pretty good their.
90% would be superb IMO and your score would be 180 with 36 kills out of 40 shots.
Backyard shooting is not quite the same.
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20 yards 4" anything less means something is wrong.
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Typically a group about the size of a pie-plate (9") is average, however I try to strive for above average. I would think as long as both hands can wrap around the group with fingers touching is an excellent group. If you can wrap one hand around the group, might wanna try spear hunting! :smileystooges: :knothead: :bigsmyl: :archer:
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X 2 what Michael said....! I also have shot better many times....just depends on how well you concentrate...
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At the club we hang a 4" diameter foam rubber apple at 20 yards. Charge 1 $ for 3 shots at our trad shoot. It is RARE to see someone with 3 consecutive hits......RARE. This includes quite a few top notch shots. There are some guys who may constantly shoot sub 6" groups at 20 yards...but they are the exception to the rule in my personal opinion. Watching them in competiton has shown me an accurate cross section of shooters. A few of them do even better from the keyboard of their computer...! :-D
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X 2 what Michael said....! I also have shot better manyy times....just depends on how well you concentrate...
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I'd say that depends a lot on how and what your shooting.
Olympic style recurve: You better have sub 4" groups consistently to be "good."
Hunting grade accuracy: Your measure of accuracy would be directly proportional to the game animals you hunt at those distances. If your a deer hunter 100% of shots in 8" circle is a 100% kill rate. If your a pig hunter you better step down that plate to a 6" pie plate. If you want to hunt smaller game then you may need a 2" group to hit consistently at that distance (which I couldn't do). For hunting grade accuracy, I think under ideal conditions you should be able to consistently put ALL of your arrows in the hole. Hunting doesn't give ideals very often and sometimes bad shots happen but the range is the time/place to learn your limits as an archer so you can make more responsible decisions in the field.
3D accuracy: If you can consistently hit 80% of targets in the kill zone then you'll likely be highly competitive at your club.
I'd say this is an answer that only you can truly answer because only you truly know what your looking for. Also, try not to worry about what others are doing so much and just have fun. Make a goal for yourself and work towards it. With good form and plenty of repetition it'll all get there with time but it WILL take time to improve so you may as well relax and enjoy the ride.
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I agree with Michael also. 6" at 20 yards would be pretty good. If you could shoot the 300 indoor target and score over 200 with your hunting bow, you would be doing well.
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Originally posted by jackdaw:
At the club we hang a 4" diameter foam rubber apple at 20 yards. Charge 1 $ for 3 shots at our trad shoot. It is RARE to see someone with 3 consecutive hits......RARE. This includes quite a few top notch shots. There are some guys who may constantly shoot sub 6" groups at 20 yards...but they are the exception to the rule in my personal opinion. Watching them in competiton has shown me an accurate cross section of shooters. A few of them do even better from the keyboard of their computer...! :-D
Great info in this thread. This is interesting Jack. Thanks
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Love the keyboard comment, Jackdaw. Aint it the truth. As far as I'm concerned, a 4" group would be considered outstanding at 20 yds. 6" is more normal for me. Some days are good, some not so. Nature of the beast.
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yesterday I was shooting 4-6 inch groups all day. the day before I would have to measure group size by zip code......
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I hope to one day shoot 6" consistently. I dont shoot targets with a bullseye as I make myself pick a spot.
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On a day when concentration levels are high I would keep most arrows touching or close to it. Some days are just magical. On average days I would say 6" would be about right. Don't even want to remember the bad days. I have since quit shooting groups to keep concentration high and fatigue low and it has helped a lot. Also helped save a bunch of Port Orfords, and I get to burn off some more of this winter fat. This sport is a lot like golf. One nice shot and you a feel like Arnold Palmer. We just feel like we are Howard Hill!!
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Well, I KNOW I can keep all of mine inside a 36" circle at 20 yards, day in and day out.
CHuckC
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Try this,
My target is one of those official blue paper targets with the 3 inch white circle. Attach it to the target with some flathead roofing nails.
Get 7 arrows- 3 strikes and 4 balls. A shot in the 3 inch white is a strike.
Pitch/shoot an inning at first. See how many you walk and strike out. It will teach you concentration and not to get behind in the count. I do this with my 50lb centaur/DAS.
Other ideas is tic tac to with two people.
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X2 Steelhead, groups mean nothing in real life hunting.
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Back in the late 60's and 70's I read a lot of articles that suggested an archer should be able to consistently keep his arrows in the space of a 9" pie plate centered on the kill zone. I have noticed, over the years, that there seems to be two basic mind sets regarding practical accuracy. The die hard hunters, who are not much concerned about 3D competition seem to speak in terms of keeping them in the kill zone. Target oriented shooters lean towards a more specific measurement such as grouping within a designated size circle. These are just my observations and are not necessarily a scientific measurement. My personal tendency seems to be oriented toward a circle group on flat targets and "in the kill zone shots" on 3D or live targets.
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Sounds like fun. I would if I had anyone with whom to shoot. Not that many trad shooter in the area.
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I've built groups at 20 yards with 3 arrows touching, but I've flung embarrassingly large groups. My "average" is not the best and not the worst. I know I can put one arrow where it needs to be.
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Originally posted by ranger 3:
X2 Steelhead, groups mean nothing in real life hunting.
Shot this 60 arrow group at 20 yards several years back with a hunting rig Pittsley Predator, 62" 53@30 and 550gr 2117's. A month later over a three week period I managed to cleanly miss three different bucks under 20 yards.
:biglaugh:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e173/Yellowdog3822/P2230344.jpg)
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I agree with the 6" also. If I am out of the 3" though, I am mad at myself. I stay mad quite a bit!!!!
Bisch
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Double Post
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A real good day would be to hit a Soft Ball on every shot.......most times I'm real happy to hit a soccer ball on every shot. Many days I'm not happy.......lol
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Once you get to the point you have to quit shooting groups because to are damaging your arrows you are getting there....
but amazingly enough you don't get there by shooting groups at all. Much better to have multiple dots on your target.... aim small, miss small
When shooting groups, you can't help focusing on your arrow knocks already in the target, and subconsciously you are adjusting your aiming point with each shot. Shooting 5 different spots on an NFAA 300 round is good, or 3 different spots on a 300 Vegas round will sharpen up your game indoors.... but when shooting a 3D target its best to shoot one arrow at a time & pull it.... THAT is good hunting practice.
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Originally posted by Yellow Dog:
Originally posted by ranger 3:
X2 Steelhead, groups mean nothing in real life hunting.
Shot this 60 arrow group at 20 yards several years back with a hunting rig Pittsley Predator, 62" 53@30 and 550gr 2117's. A month later over a three week period I managed to cleanly miss three different bucks under 20 yards.
:biglaugh:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e173/Yellowdog3822/P2230344.jpg) [/b]
Great job on that target! What did you score that day?
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10 inches.
Now some days I can stack them. But in all honesty it's more like 10"" average overall. Some of you guys must bee shooting machines
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Richard, that was a 257, only had four 3's. Regarding the misses on the bucks, I had a real bad habit of shifting my focus from where I wanted to hit on an animal to their eyes to see if they saw me drawing at the last second. Once I figured that out and never took my eye off the "spot" that problem seemed to go away.
:archer2:
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Kmatt...zip code funny...I know the feeling well.
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In my groups I seem to always one flyer.
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I practice a lot between 15 and 20 yards. I can get 4"-6" groups 90+% of the time, sometimes better, rarely worst.
Having said that I have friends that would be lucky to get 8" groups and have killed PILES of deer
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Its the first one that matters, unless you can get the deer to stand still for two more...
I have always noticed that my best shot is my first during practice and hunting,maybe because I am not thinking about what I am doing ,I am just shooting it with memory, the ones after that always hit a little low to the first one
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If you are aiming at a spot and hits within 6” of that spot you are doing well, that is a 6” group but you could hit 6” high on one shot, hit 6” low, right or left on the others. That’s 12” if you shoot 6” high and 6” low. I typically do that on any given day but most of the time it’s within 3” or 4” on good days within 2” depending on what ruler I’m carrying or if I’m really feeling it I’ll take my micrometer. :readit:
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On a 300 target I can't remember the last time I shot lower than 200, usually in the 230-250 range with a few targets at the high of 258. this is with either a recurve or long bow a pinch over 60 lbs. I very handily missed the only buck I had a shot at this last season.
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Usually my first 2 shots are good
(within 2-3 inches) then the third is a flyer. I guess I cannot shoot well under my own pressure.
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(http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/bloodtrailer7/DSC02238_zpsfb55a1b9.jpg) :archer2:
barring the Robinhood this is my typical 20 yrd group.
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Curiously....I tend to shoot 3 1/2"-4" at about 17 yards very consistently.....move to 20 yards ..concentration becomes much more difficult unless aiming a a small ,highly visible aiming point. Unfortunately deer don't come with those??? Really like yellowdogs target post....good stuff.....Jackdaw
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If I don't have them one behind the other, I'm not a happy camper but, it does get expensive, :bigsmyl:
Now to come back down to earth, if you want to shrink your diameter, practice form !
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Originally posted by Bldtrailer:
(http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/bloodtrailer7/DSC02238_zpsfb55a1b9.jpg) :archer2:
barring the Robinhood this is my typical 20 yrd group.
That's what i'm taking about.... after you do that a half dozen times and are busting up your knocks regularly, it gets expensive.... you need to shoot different spots.
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After roughly a month of shooting a recurve...some days I can put 3 out of 5 of my arrows in a 36''x36'' bag target lol. But the last couple days my 10 yard groups are averaging about 5''. 15 yards probably 8''.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirkll:
quote:
Originally posted by Bldtrailer:
(http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/bloodtrailer7/DSC02238_zpsfb55a1b9.jpg) :biglaugh:
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Pomegranate or smaller most days on some days ping ball size. Others pumpkin size. I do not like practicing on paper. I don't think 3D or paper is like hunting shots. But its still good. I practice on ground squirrels mostly. Good at missing them.
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Grouping with a stick bow (and other weapons I believe) is 95% mental I've convinced myself...and the other 5% is also mental (maybe physical, but if the mind isn't driving the bus, it doesn't matter).
In the past, I fought bow grips every shot...if I pre-loaded tension and it felt bad in my hand, I shot well (with one bow I had and since went bye-bye).
Now with my SAS LB with custom Grip, my consistency has improved. The grip fits and it's all about concentration and repetitive form...correct form.
When I don't shoot well, I know my mind is wandering and the arrows follow my mind.
Sometimes, shooting well resembles work given the intense concentration required to consistently group well.
On those days that I feel mentally lazy or undisciplined, I just do something else... no sense battling that which refuses to listen to me. A mind is a terrible thing to waste... :rolleyes: :knothead:
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(http://i.imgur.com/V7sefwA.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/E6NzydS.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/GArPPHr.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/EGM1Xjh.jpg)
These were all shot at 20 yards...
I have quit shooting groups after the top picture.... arrows are much too expensive! It was cool the first time, but not now! :knothead:
One arrow at a time and walk up and get it. That way it is almost like a first shot every time!
Good luck, Shoot straight and God Bless!
Rodd
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In jackdaw's reply concerning accuracy, he ended stating A few of them do even better from the keyboard of their computer...!" The same phenomena often occurs with reported chronograph results.
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Originally posted by dahyer:
Depends I agree with michael. But I have had some great groups will all arrows touching at 20. Just depends on the day.
This Is my experience too! Will add, I prefer to shoot three different spots accurately in a row! Same results, less damaged arrows!
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(http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/bloodtrailer7/DSC02246_zps113e57fe.jpg) (http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/bloodtrailer7/DSC02233_zps18134508.jpg)
If you foot both ends :archer: you can keep the cost of Robinhoods down :archer2:
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Depends on what I'm shooting at. A white pc of paper on my straw bales seems to keep then tight, about 4-5 " groups. Sometimes nocking some feathers loose.
If I'm shooting at a new bag target that makes that loud sound and only has a round colored bullseye…18"! I can not hit those! Until I dig a hole in the bullseye, then it's like a magnet and I can't miss it.
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Originally posted by Bldtrailer:
(http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/bloodtrailer7/DSC02246_zps113e57fe.jpg) (http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/bloodtrailer7/DSC02233_zps18134508.jpg)
If you foot both ends :archer: you can keep the cost of Robinhoods down :archer2:
I did foot both ends and my arrow blew right through the footing. And I couldn't even brag about it because I wasn't aiming at the spot I hit, just random bad shot luck!
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Most shooters with enough age to have shot field archery would relate to having all four of their arrows inside the five ring (inner ring), which was about 6 inches in diameter. We generally had to pull arrows after two of four shooters to prevent damage. Same with 15 yard target and the bird shot short targets which were up to 10 yards. My Instructors wife in the early '60's, would shoot into the center of a 45 RPM record for demonstrations, but she was two time National NFAA Champion and would be what you referred to as a great shooter, not the average good shooter, thus my answer would be 6 inches for four arrows.
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What part of Alberta are you in?
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To me my measure of success is 5 arrows into the white on the NFAA indoor face which is 3". I haven't been able to do that though. If I did I'd want to do that 12 times in a row for a 300.
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Come on Reddogge....I thought you could do that all day long..???? Let's just hit that shade mtn foam apple 6 straight times......we will practice at Baltimore this year...
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12" square of cardboard at 20 yards - representing a deer's chest (with no bullseye or "spot").
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Stumpkiller/Bowhunting/DSCN0916_zps3ef2b775.jpg)
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I can pull all 5 arrows out with one hand. (Usually)
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Originally posted by Mike Mecredy:
I can pull all 5 arrows out with one hand. (Usually)
I can pull all 5 arrows out with one hand EVERY time..................1 arrow at a time! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Bisch
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You guys need to stop bragging about how big your hands are!!! :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl:
At 20 yards I can get all touching on a good day. If they are more than 6" I know I am doing something wrong and have to stop and examine my form.
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Can shooting carbon arrows tighten groups? So far I've only shot wood. I imagine carbon being more consistent would shoot better or is it not noticeable at 20 yards?
Some really good shooting on here.
I just got the Kanati pro quiver that straps on and have been shooting a bunch. Added enough weight to my bow that it feels less jumpy in my hand. Very nice quiver as well.
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With a recurve and target shooting form pretty tight, with a PAA target and a balanced out target bow and sights tighter. With Hill tempo and shot rhythms about a tennis ball for 6 arrows on a good set of six, a volley ball on a bad set of six. I worry most about that first shot, I believe that shot versatility and shot timing to be more important than group size. My last month's practice sessions before hunting season, I shoot and move with every shot. shooting every shot in a different position. If I miss my mark by more than a couple of inches, I go retrieve my arrows and start over. I shoot at different spots when doing this because the arrows come at the target from varied angles.
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Originally posted by AlbertaBow:
Can shooting carbon arrows tighten groups? So far I've only shot wood. I imagine carbon being more consistent would shoot better or is it not noticeable at 20 yards?
Some really good shooting on here.
I just got the Kanati pro quiver that straps on and have been shooting a bunch. Added enough weight to my bow that it feels less jumpy in my hand. Very nice quiver as well.
Good tuning and good form are what will improve accuracy, no matter what the choice of shaft material!
Bisch
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First off, I'm a relatively new trad shooter. I just shot inside for the first time today. Also the first time I've shot at paper. Two months or so ago I started to really buckle down and practice as often as I could. Here's my first group on paper. I'm pleased with it.
Bear Montana 50#@28"
(http://i.imgur.com/n38Ag8L.jpg)
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What about 15 yds? 4" group acceptable for deer hunting?
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As long as that 4" group is where you were aiming.
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Originally posted by AZ_Longbow:
As long as that 4" group is where you were aiming.
good point!