Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Jakeemt on February 21, 2016, 01:12:00 PM
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I have read a number of threads with one being current that mentions trad hunters not being able to shoot accurately past 20 yards. I wonder how this myth got started. All the greats I read about like Pope and Young, Fred bear, Jack Howard, the great Howard Hill and the Thompson brothers were all proficient at very long distances. What's more anyone can be, with practice. I can put 6/6 arrows in a nine inch circle at 30 and 4/6 in the same circle at 40. For some reason out past 50 it gets really bad and I am luck to get 1 or 2 of 6 but, I'll keep practicing! I am not trying to brag either I would consider myself of average athletic ability with no crazy hand eye coordination either. It's just practice. What's more I have found that when I really made an effort to get proficient at longer distances, my shooting inside 20 was much improved. It really does ingrain a higher quality of form into your shooting. For anyone who thinks they cannot hit past 30 reliably get out and practice you and your bow are way more accurate than you give yourself credit for!
Now that being said longer range shots on live game targets are somewhat controversial. The distance you should take shots will be up to the individual hunter, his skill, knowledge of his prey, and self imposed limitations. I would never advocate that everyone should take long shots at game anymore than I would say nobody should. That's just too personal and subjective. The only reason for this post is to let other people know that if you push the boundaries of your range you will see a substantial improvement at all of your ranges especially the short ones.
I would really enjoy reading people's take on this but, please please guy's be civil with each other. Remember the order of the day at TG is expect to be respected. Different idea's and opinions are important but, let's not let this thread descend into nastiness and name calling.
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I think part of the reason is that you mentioned legendary "greats" of archery. Most of us are not "great" or these others would not stand out the way they do.
I also believe its one thing to be shooting at a target at known distance in the open and somewhat different, at least for many of us, to be shooting in brush at an animal that may not hold still quite as long as that target does.
I'm not saying no one is capable of making the shots and if they can honestly say they are capable, than more power to them. I believe what you said is that you are likely to wound an animal at 40 yards 1/3 of the time. I want my odds to be a lot better than that if I'm shooting at a live animal as opposed to a foam animal I can shoot at more than once if necessary to get the hit I want.
We all need to be able to live with ourselves and, maybe its an ego thing, but I want to say I am pretty darned sure of my shot at the distances I choose to shoot at. Just my $.02 worth.
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it probably got started because when someone can't do something they don't want to accept the fact that it can be done by others.
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Blade I agree with you. My personal limit on game animals is currently 30 yards. However, even that limit has limitations like, no obstructions, plenty of time to set up, early in the season with no cold muscles or bulky clothes, ect. This post wasn't as much about hunting shots as the accuracy of the bow in general. Though hunting ethics and shots is an important part of the discussion.
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Please don't misunderstand me Terry. I'm not saying that because I can't do it that others can't either. I've seen videos of you shooting, whereas you have not seen videos of me shooting :)
I would not attempt the same shots you're capable of because I could not make them. I think what I was trying to say is that MOST of us are average shots. The above average shooters are certainly capable of stretching ranges and the below average shots should probably stick to only very close shots.
I suppose I was, in a sense, agreeing with the OP in that we should not be criticizing anyone for seeking to extend his ability. At the same time, we certainly should not encourage people to shoot at game beyond their ability.
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They're are a lot of people out there that think that since they'll never take a hunting shot past 20, they dont practice past 20.
I agree with you Jake, if you want to be good at 20, practice at 30, to be good at 30 practice at 40 and so on.
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Good Lord Ron.....that wasn't directed at you....
Just observations of years running a message board.
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I shoot a LOT of 3D, and I hunt a LOT!!!! Of all the traditional shooters I know that shoot regular wood bows off the shelf, I would be willing to bet 90% of them cannot shoot 6/6 arrows CONSISTENTLY in a 9" circle (and I do know a few pretty salty shooters too). If you can, more power to you, but the percentage of folks who can is very, very low!
I also agree with you that anyone should practice longer range shots, and that as proficiency is gained at the longer ranges, the shorter ranges a do get easier.
Bisch
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I really like taking long shots at 3D targets. But I learned the hard way that great 40-yard shots at deer end up hitting nothing but thin air. I just can't get that arrow there fast enough.
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I shoot a bunch also out at 50 yards and further
Just because I can at a target doesn't mean I will in the woods
When you get in a hunting situation it's totally different on a live animal. I like my shots under 20 yards 90% of my shots have been under 15 yards.
I like them close :)
I would imagine that the greats also had a high wounding rate as well
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I think you answered your own question with your statement.
You mentioned trad hunters and then went on to say that long range shooting on game animals is controversial...that is the ethical question.
We are talking about taking an animal cleanly and humanely. Not wishing for one of our 40 yard shots to find its mark.
I believe trad archers who shoot targets and trad hunters are two different breeds. It is definitely a different mindset.
Frankly, and this is just me, I have a problem with anyone who shoots at an animal at 30 yards. Less than 20 (under 15 is better) is much better and is much more in line with what most people can be capable.
I shoot a lot during summer at 30 to 35 yards. I would never shoot at an animal at that distance, but it does make me much better at 20 and under.
Just my 2 cents. And it's worth exactly what you paid for it.
LOL....I just enjoy this sport so much.
Ken
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
it probably got started because when someone can't do something they don't want to accept the fact that it can be done by others.
Well said Terry.
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heck I love close shots , a deer inside ten yards is dead and don't know it . I do believe however in practicing longer ranges out to fifty yards and more , i find it makes you concentrate more on form and thus become a better shot at those close ranges . i have seen some really fine shots out there and they work at it for sure. Drew
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The west is generally more open country than the east, and perhaps mule deer in general are not as skittish as whitetails, although I'm sure there are individual exceptions. In our typical 3D tournaments, trad archers shoot at distances from really close to 50 yards. Most people I have talked with train to take shots at deer out to 30 yards. I'm sure really good shots would push that to 40, but that's about the limit, although one of Rick Welch's videos shows him taking an animal at a distance that was later measured to be 50 yards. I practice just about every day at all distances from really close to at least 65 yards, so I won't feel uncomfortable taking 50 yard shots in tournaments. I'm in the 30 yard bunch, as far as shots at game animals are concerned.
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There are a few select few who can put a bullet in a terrorist head from 1000 yrds...but most rifle hunters can't hit accurately at 300 yrds. Picking out a couple shooters out of thousands of trad shooters doesn't really equate. There are always people who will excel but most people will not achieve that. I've seen excellent shots and terrible shots....what makes me laugh is these people who would rather miss a complete deer at 15 yrds by being truely instinctive rather than work out a system where they can actually hit something
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Guys I make no judgements on self imposed distances. It's just too subjective. one of the biggest factors is animals heck I have had squirrels dodge arrows matrix style at 5 yards! There is big diffence between moose and white tails, pigs and ground squirrels, rabbits and yotes know what I mean? I just really wanted to shed some light on the perceived lack of accuracy at longer distances. A trad bow can make consistent hits at a distance and it will only make you better up close.
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Originally posted by TradBowyer:
....what makes me laugh is these people who would rather miss a complete deer at 15 yrds by being truely instinctive rather than work out a system where they can actually hit something
No need to be rude man. Everyone has different systems that work for them. Can we try and avoid negative comments about other bow hunters. This thread could be cool lets not get it shut down with negative comments.
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I never liked long shots......that being said since stumping with the crew I shoot with now they have pushed me to try longer pokes.......and I like it!!! It has made me a much better shot over all. I still want that 5-18 yard shot while hunting but pushing ones self during practice is a good thing!
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Yeah, I guess I should start gapping or some such so I can actually hit something, or maybe sights, or sights and a release, maybe a compound, or wait..... a compound cross bow with a scope ! Yeah, that's it. Then I can hit way out there too. Or maybe just get a .270.
Or I can just do what I am doing, have fun, and get close to the critters I shoot at.
ChuckC
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I'm a big fan of 2 ranges- in and out of. I am also a big fan of heart/lunging a deer and THEN whipping out my lazer range finder to discover I've made a 40, 30 or 12 yard shot. The distance doesn't matter once the noepinepherine kicks in because the spot I'm going to hit doesn't change size.
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I agree 100%... there is no downside to pushing yourself while practicing and the practice may well pay off if you ever have to make a follow up shot on a critter if you need to...BeauJ
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
it probably got started because when someone can't do something they don't want to accept the fact that it can be done by others.
Said the guy that, if I remember right, hit the target at 100 yards......in the DARK!!!
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Jake, I agree 100% with you that if people push there limits they are opening the door to get better. Like you, I too practice out to 50 yards on a regular basis, even further from time to time. Today after our first 3D of the year a friend and I were shooting 90 meters, not well but we were having a lot of fun shooting that far.
When hunting personally my favorite shot is within 15 yards. I have shot a couple further than 15 yards and I have had them at 10 yards and would not consider taking a shot. Hunting is very personal and one should set there own limits through personal experience and not what they read in some hunting book.
Have fun, shoot straight and FAAAAAR. :)
Ben
:archer2:
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when I shoot at targets I will push my shots out to 50 yards+ yards. when I hunt game I do not will not risk a poor shot and a wounded unrecoverable animal. so my hunting shots are a lot closer for large game.
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Jakeemt..
I'm not being rude . I'm stating facts. Most people could become better shots at longer distances if they chose to. To each their own but if you choose to limit yourself that's fine but don't degrade others for bettering their shooting distance as too often is the case.
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By saying you in my post above I was not calling out you personally. Just wanted to clarify
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I have a tree on my range that is 24 yards, so I shoot infront (short) and behind(long) every time I shoot. very seldom shoot from same place twice in one shooting. As far as hunting I do most from a ground blind and limit my shot inside of 20 yards. closest is 8 and longest was 15 in last several years. I only know the yardage because I step it off after the shot. I agree with the statement that shooting long ranges help improve shorter shots as long as you don't forget to practice at the shorter ranges also.
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I agree very much that long range practice makes closer shots easier, if you work at it.
In fact, last year I made up my mind to do it and then my bow shoulder had other ideas. I was very lucky to just keep up my accuracy at 20 yards.
I shoot 3 under and I string walk. My point on with fingers touching the nock is 32 yards with most of my set-ups. I reason that I should be able to be quite accurate at 30.
However, as suggested in my signature, it is difficult for me to keep my wandering mind on a short leash.
I hope to work on it again this year. Not so I can take further shots while hunting but to be super confident at 20.
My definition of effective range is 90% of my shots in the "kill". But even within effective range doesn't trump factors that can make an otherwise close enough sho,t unreasonable.
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I think the premise here is to shoot what you're comfortable shooting. Some compound shooters practice at 80+ yards to make a 40+ yard shots easy. I think that is what Jacob was saying. That said, practice shooting accurately at all distances and then determine what your hunting distance is.
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Along with others I shoot all the 3D shoots I can and have to agree with Bisch in that not many can shoot a 9" group at 20 yards let alone 30. Now add in what C Wilder mentioned and make it unmarked ranges and it all goes to H$%l.
I am a big supporter of shooting longer than what I expect my normal shots to be.
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I am a fan of shooting the distance I like and you shoot the distance you like!
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All the greats I read about like Pope and Young, Fred bear, Jack Howard, the great Howard Hill and the Thompson brothers were all proficient at very long distances.
Every one of those guys could outshoot me any day. Probably from the grave! :biglaugh:
but, looking at how they viewed hunting and shot selection in their times makes it clear that their point f view was far different from what most of us subscribe to today.
Below are a few quotes from Saxton Pope from his "hunting With The Bow and Arrow"
An archer's striking distance extends from ten to one hundred yards. For small animals it lies between ten and forty; for large game from forty to eighty or a hundred.
The first deer I shot at was so far off that there was no chance to hit it, but I let drive just to get the sensation. My arrow sailed harmlessly over its back. The next I shot at was within good range, but my arrow only grazed its rump.
Once, when two of us shot at an old stag together as it raced far off down the trail, the two arrows dropped twenty yards ahead of it.
There, eighty yards away, stood a three-year-old buck, grazing under an oak. His back was toward me. I crouched and sneaked nearer. My arrow was nocked on the string. The distance I measured carefully with my eye; it was now sixty-five yards. Just then the deer raised its head. I let fly an arrow at its neck. It flew between its horns. The deer gave a started toss to its head, listened a second, then dipped its crest again to feed. I nocked another shaft. As it raised its head again I shot. This arrow flew wide of the neck, but at the right elevation. The buck now was more startled and jumped so that it stood profile to me, looking and listening. I dropped upon one knee. A little rising ground and intervening brush partially concealed me. As I drew a third arrow from my quiver its barb caught in the rawhide, and I swore a soft vicious oath to steady my nerves. Then drawing my bow carefully, lowering my aim and holding like grim death, I shot a beautifully released arrow. It sped over the tops of the dried grass seeming to skim the ground like a bird, and struck the deer full and hard in the chest.
this last quote will explain much of the above:
A shot in either the chest or abdominal cavity of a deer is invariably fatal in a few minutes
I'm not putting these quotes up to condemn them. It's just the difference in how they looked at things compared to how we look at them.
Everyone who has posted on this topic has, IMO, valid points. They just don't apply equally
to all of us in terms of our shooting ability or our willingness to test our ability.
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There are multiple methods for improving for extended yardage proficiency. Consistently practicing at longer ranges continues to be an often productive standard practice.
We should never lose sight of the extreme trajectory to be encountered at longer ranges when pursuing game as compared to our wheeie counterparts.
A typical wheelie hunting setup may have an approximate straight vertical drop of 37"s at 40 yards. Where as a typical traditional setup may have an approximate 8.9 foot straight vertical drop at 40 yards.
Striving to improve remains the objective for the majority.
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I like the idea of practicing long and hunting close. To put an exact distance to that concept is totally a matter of personal choice and individual responsibility. I practice at distances that I am not at all consistent at, but I often find it helps me do much better at my valid hunting distances. Some guys can consistently shoot ethically at 30+ yards and others can't. It is that simple. We owe it to ourselves and the game we hunt to realistically work out our effective range and to hunt within it.
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Personally, I think the challenge and thrill of bowhunting, especially traditional bowhunting, is getting close to game in order to take close shots(or having them get close to us).
However, I do see the value in practicing at longer distances to make ourselves better at close shots. I've been stretching out my practice distances lately.
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Jake,
Are you shooting that accurately with or without sights? Seems like I have read several posts from you on other threads stating you use sights on your trad bows. It doesn't bother me one bit if you do, just curious what method you're using if you're not using some type of actual sight other than the arrow tip.
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It may be interesting to note that the elite 3D archers lowest scoring target marks are often encountered on the abbreviated range targets.
They often adjust their setups to better accommodate their closer effective hunting range.
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Sorry to burst your bubble, I hit deer at 15 yards or under because I'm a good hunter, can I hit them in the vitals further away, sure I can, and do. My system is, I shoot instinctively !
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While I shoot TARGETS over 20-25 yards, I usually don't shoot animals beyond there. For me it's harder visually to pick a spot and groups open up, any errors in form are exaggerated (hunting often means taking awkward shots from behind cover), also if the animal jumps the string there is a much higher likelihood of injury vs recovery out past 20-25yds.
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Originally posted by tarponnut:
Personally, I think the challenge and thrill of bowhunting, especially traditional bowhunting, is getting close to game in order to take close shots(or having them get close to us).
However, I do see the value in practicing at longer distances to make ourselves better at close shots. I've been stretching out my practice distances lately.
:thumbsup:
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This has been a good thread for me personally...gave me time to think thru a few thoughts.
We all base our choices on experience(s).
I had one back years ago where I didn't see a tiny lead pencil size green briar that deflected an arrow shot at 22 yards at a broadside, quiet deer.
Hit behind the 11th rib onside and out behind the 4th off side..pass thru. But missed diaphragm and punched the liver.
I was at least 20 yrs younger...and at "ethical" range i failed to see a tiny twig that deflected an arrow from double lung to liver! Took that animal 2.5 hrs to die with the other state line only 125 yards away. Had I tried to get down, and it ran, I'd never got it.
I about gave up hunting watching that animal suffer and since, no matter how well I hit at what range, I won't shoot IN THE WOODS beyond 20... and that changes depending on lighting and other factors, always shorter, never longer.
I know guys who are crack shots at longer range... have great eyesight and take longer open shots. I don't get those, probably cause where I hunt in thicker stuff where deer move more.
That's Eastern hunting or so I found.
I applaud those with better accuracy then me and especially those with better eyesight. Deer move, foam doesn't. Stuff happens. Murphy has been a close cousin all my life.
enjoy the hunt... sticks aren't limited to lesser accuracy...I'd say stick hunters are, due to a variety of factors, but nothing is universal! Some excel.
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I'd say we have evolved.
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Pauldeadringer-yep I recently switch over to a DAS sight. Before I was using a fixed crawl out to to 30 but, it made my bow too loud so after the season was over I bought a sight and switch back to split. Best of both worlds for me. It helps me focus on a spot or a precise hit and for quick close shots I just cant it to the side. Here is a group I shot before switching with a fixed crawl and totally bare bow at 30. No doubt 3 under and clapping or instinctive can do exactly the same thing.
https://flic.kr/p/EbPwwW
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I'll have to look into the DAS sight. I have thought about using a pin sight as a form check.
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From what I gather from reading all the comments we do agree that closer is better for hunting. Yes, out west game like antelope can test your skills. But blinds have increased the success ratio by getting them closer.
I enjoy shooting arrows, close, far, don't care just want to shoot arrows. I will not shoot at game further than say 25 yards. Then the conditions have to be what I consider perfect. Get me to a 3D shoot and I want to shoot from the wheel bow stakes. I want to have fun at shoots, practice for hunting is no fun, it is work. It does take work to hit a pie plate at 20yards every time. Maybe I am to serious about hunting practice but that is how I feel.
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Originally posted by Jakeemt:
Pauldeadringer-yep I recently switch over to a DAS sight. Before I was using a fixed crawl out to to 30 but, it made my bow too loud so after the season was over I bought a sight and switch back to split. Best of both worlds for me. It helps me focus on a spot or a precise hit and for quick close shots I just cant it to the side. Here is a group I shot before switching with a fixed crawl and totally bare bow at 30. No doubt 3 under and clapping or instinctive can do exactly the same thing.
https://flic.kr/p/EbPwwW
I can shoot groups like that at 30 also! I can also have one little form glitch that send an arrow from the yellow to the black on that target. At 10-15yds, the arrow with the glitch is still in the yellow! For hunting, closer is better!
Another note: For me, personally, a 9" circle is not good enough for whitetail, pigs, and like size animals. For elk, buffalo and other bigger critters it is fine!
Bisch
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I could give a rats butt how far someone can shoot. Being able to hit a target butt at 50 yds does not impress me...being able to hit a 3D Deer at 30 yards does not impress me.
Some have the time and skill to shoot out to 50 yds and take those long shots with confidence. Others do not have the time or skill for whatever reason and shoot less than 20 yards.
What does matter to me is that YOU stay within your limits when shooting living-breathing-bleeding game animals and only take high percentage shots based on YOUR own abilities.
Someone can hit a target 9 out of 10 times but I am not willing to watch them try on a whitetail at that same difference. If it goes well it is GREAT...if the deer takes ONE STEP before arrow impacts it could go from double lung to gut shot.
That is why I dont like long shots on animals when hunting... I have passed on dozens and dozens of animals that were past my comfort range...some with racks that would be in the record books...but I just wont do it.
The man that impresses me THE MOST is the one that cant shoot worth a darn past 20 yards but he fills his tags EACh and EVERY YEAR by getting to 15, 10 and even 5 yards. He hunts within his limits.
I have found it much harder...and respect those that can do it often...to get within an animals danger zone successfully and then make the shot. Just getting there is tough enough where their eyes, ears and noses are nearly perfect....then drawing and making the shot successfully is the creme de la creme. Beautiful...artistic...epic!
Give me a fella that fills his tags at less than 15 yards every year over the guy that does it at 40... same with modern hunters...I will take the guy with a lever gun or blackpowder that does it at 50-75 yards over the guy with the scopes and stuff at 500 yds.
The challenge is getting in that close...and living within your capabilities no matter the trophy in front of you.
How I choose to shoot and ENJOY my hunt is personal...and not for public opinion. Maybe that is why I hunt alone 90% of the time.
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Groups are fun and make for great pictures with a bow hanging from a 3", 5 arrow group at 25-30 yards. Sometimes I'll get one like that, it makes me grin, and try to break my arm (patting myself on the back) but if I only based my accuracy on my grouping ability I'd be one sad archer. I'd probably have to limit my shots to 17.8 yards, but I wouldn't feel comfortable out to 18. :knothead:
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Originally posted by Bisch:
I shoot a LOT of 3D, and I hunt a LOT!!!! Of all the traditional shooters I know that shoot regular wood bows off the shelf, I would be willing to bet 90% of them cannot shoot 6/6 arrows CONSISTENTLY in a 9" circle (and I do know a few pretty salty shooters too). If you can, more power to you, but the percentage of folks who can is very, very low!
I also agree with you that anyone should practice longer range shots, and that as proficiency is gained at the longer ranges, the shorter ranges a do get easier.
Bisch
Wait.. You've shot with me.. What are you trying to say???? ;)
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I will take shots at Ground squirrels to forty yards most shots are at 30 your not going to get any closer . to get to 40-30 yards I'm full camo and been crawling to get that close. Some times I hit them. But on all other stuff I want them as close as possible. But shooting those ground rats at those distances makes getting a bunny at 20 a piece of cake. We all should try to get our groups as small as possible at all ranges. Just in case. You might have a rabid field mouse coming at you at 45 yards.
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There's that dang "proficiency" word again!!!
I shot a 10 point a few season back and hit him square in the shoulder at 31 yrds. I didn't know how far it was until I stepped it off afterwords. It just felt right. BUT, I never found that deer. I've made some great shots and some not so great shots at all ranges. So now I try to keep my shots as close as possible. I set my stands up for close shots. My stands at my feeders are set up at less than 10 yrds. I'm a lot more comfortable/confident at close ranges. And it's a thrill to get close! I shot a 250 lb boar at 4 yrds while sitting on the ground a couple months ago and passed on a good 8 point at a little over 20 on the last day of season. I know my personal limits and try stick to them. And I still blow it sometimes!
I strive to be great but I'm not there yet! :)
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But that 10 percent of the great shooters can do some inspirational things when shooting their bows. Like Betty Grubbs who was a two time NFAA Instinctive Division Champion and would shoot into the holes of 45 RPM records for TV Demonstrations.
Take your Wife's Elvis records and try that sometime and see if you get to come home.
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Originally posted by Bisch:
I can shoot groups like that at 30 also! I can also have one little form glitch that send an arrow from the yellow to the black on that target. At 10-15yds, the arrow with the glitch is still in the yellow! For hunting, closer is better!
Bisch [/QB][/QUOTE]
I agree with you there man I can get those form flaws too. I like my shots closer too man. I'll take a shot at 30 if everything I just perfect but, I'd rather be closer and if anything is off I'll pass. I got a doe at 8 yards from the ground this year. Easy chip shot trouble was she still partially ducked the arrow and it turned into a high double lung. I recovered her but she ran a ways. Things can and do happen up close too all shades of grey in this sport.
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P.S. I am not trying to brag nor do I think I am a great shot or anything. I only posted that group to show you can do it without sights.
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I guess someone forgot to tell me that I was limiting myself by shooting instinctive ......now that made me laugh.
:biglaugh:
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Originally posted by crittergetter:
I shot a 10 point a few season back and hit him square in the shoulder at 31 yrds. I didn't know how far it was until I stepped it off afterwords. It just felt right. BUT, I never found that deer.
So you missed the heart by about 6+"? I'd love to be the guy who can't ever miss by that much at 15 yards, but I am not. If you didn't range this buck before the shot, how do you know it was the distance that caused the shoulder hit? I'm betting there was more too it than just the range. I guess I see a pulled shot as pulled shot... it won't work out at any range (for me). I guess I'm lucky to only worry about the range until after the shot. I actually passed a nice bull or 6 different cows this past September at 50 yards. Shame on me for ranging the elk, I happily passed at that point. When I get my 200 yard bow set up, then we'll talk about ethicallity. :archer2:
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Come on guys. Let's keep this place respectful. We can still talk about and debate touchy issues without resorting to the BS seen on other sites. Makes us all better.
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I don't worry about how well other guys shoot. I just worry about how well I shoot.. :)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/DCP01357.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/DCP01358.jpg)
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Originally posted by BWallace10327:
Originally posted by crittergetter:
I shot a 10 point a few season back and hit him square in the shoulder at 31 yrds. I didn't know how far it was until I stepped it off afterwords. It just felt right. BUT, I never found that deer.
So you missed the heart by about 6+"? I'd love to be the guy who can't ever miss by that much at 15 yards, but I am not. If you didn't range this buck before the shot, how do you know it was the distance that caused the shoulder hit? I'm betting there was more too it than just the range. I guess I see a pulled shot as pulled shot... it won't work out at any range (for me). I guess I'm lucky to only worry about the range until after the shot. I actually passed a nice bull or 6 different cows this past September at 50 yards. Shame on me for ranging the elk, I happily passed at that point. When I get my 200 yard bow set up, then we'll talk about ethicallity. :archer2: [/b]
Brent, I actually missed the heart by about 3". He was slightly quarted away and I tried to tuck it behind the shoulder but I hit the leg bone. I didn't realize how far it was until I got down and went to the spot I shot him and looked back at the stand. Then stepped it off.
My point is that I took a shot that " I " never should have.
I later that day I passed a small 6 point at 15 yrds and shot a very small spike at about 10 yrds.
I learned from it and am better for it. But I still get sick when I think about that deer.
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Roy, I had a chuckle at your expense... Actually laughing at myself on this because I've done the same.
The fire extinguisher in your picture sure is dinged up.. :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
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Thanks Pat, I am glad you shoot good groups like that also.. :)
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Whenever I see a pic of a fantastic group, I just look at all of the other holes in the target and it is easy to see that all of the groups are not always that tight! When punching paper I'm about a 240 shooter with my longbow and wooden arrows. The three ring is just about 9" in diameter, every arrow would be a kill shot on an elk, on a 100 lb blacktail it is still unacceptable. I do not make a 4 ring shot on each and every shot I take but I still hunt and do well.
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I whole heartedly agree with practicing at greater distance than you hunt. I know it makes me a better shooter. Its also cool to an arrow fly that far and be on target. I a have spot where I can shoot out to 70 yards and it is a blast.
Each hunting situation is unique. The alertness of the animal, the angle, the distance, the vegetation. I think we all have to go by feel.
I will also day that the old time greats operated a bit differently. Howard Hill recounts taking an extremely long shot at an elk (180 yards IIRC?) that he missed and then taking another shot! I doubt that same shot would be tolerated today, even from an alltime great.
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Depends on the size of the animal. A 30 yard shot at a Kudu isn't that hard. But for whitetails I want them under 20.
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Not trying to be a smart tail and not bragging. I have killed over 200 pigs, maybe 150 deer ,turkeys and a whole bunch of small critters. If you totaled them all together my average shot is maybe 12 yards.
I have worked on "systems" to make me a better shot at longer range but shooting instinctive works for me. I tried gap shooting and on the range I was decent in the swamp poor.I found I can shoot instinctive better than I can judge distance with a bow that shoots 160 fps. If a fella is worrying about how far with a longbow in his hand he is hunting with the wrong weapon.
I have killed some 40 yarders and last summer killed a 31 yard pig. I did`nt think how far I thought "broadside.
I think that true instinctive shooting takes years to become good at.A lot of folks these days try it a while and say it is no good.Kinda like shooting a Hill bow,you gotta commit..lol The 3 years or so I shot 3 under set my shooting back a ways. I am now back on track and shooting near as good as my prime. Shoot the way you are most confident at and if it works good at longer ranges it will work surely at the close shots we should all strive for.
One more thing...You don`t have to hit the 10 ring on a deer to make a clean kill. The lungs on a deer are bigger than a milk jug and a lot of those low scoring 5~s would be short blood trails. If a fella practices their woodsman skills half as much as their shooting they would need long shots less. Most new tradbowman will have all the books and vids for shooting but will seldom ask a hunting how too question.Cheers,RC.
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Nice Post Robert!
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All you need to do is know your own limits. Game size also plays a part.
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Most of the guys I know that kill on a regular basis aren't systematic one trick ponies. They can hunt AND shoot. No reason you can't be both.
Give me the guy that can shoot AND hunt.
Thought I would throw in my two cents in since this seemed to get off track of being a shooting thread into some sort of hunter thread. Lots of folks that claim this or that don't kill near what others that don't do this or that. Like RC for instance, bet he's killed more that some folks here claiming all sorts of things.
Get off your but, learn the proper way to shoot, being a good shooter IS part of being a successful hunter. Its called *well rounded* and not limiting yourself to a few yards cause you can't shoot well enough.
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Originally posted by Roy from Pa:
I don't worry about how well other guys shoot. I just worry about how well I shoot.. :)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/DCP01357.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/DCP01358.jpg)
Gee, Roy that looks like a bunch of mismatch arrows from the trash barrel. Would have been easier to jam them in if ya woulda put points on em. :laughing: :laughing:
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I have to admit, that does look a little staged, or shot from 3 yards. Sorry, but that is the way it looks.
Like the guy the other day that never answered on a thread about how many hogs he had killed. Then showed up on the big hogs thread with a picture of a mount. No bow, no field shot, no story, no history, just a mount. Plenty of mount pictures on the internet and they sell mounts everyday on the internet as well.
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RC-I have not killed near as many big critters as you but I also agree on the importance of woodsman ship. Before I switch over to archery (never took up compounds) I was an avid small game hunter. The last season I was serious about hunting with my little single shot 20 I killed 87 squirrels that season along with 2 coons, 12 rabbits, and few crows. Lol my archery success rate is waaaaay down by comparison. I know I for one tried to shoot instinctive for about 2 years and frankly I gave the ghost up because I simply suck at it! Lots of great instinctive shots out there but, I'll never be one. Lots of great hunters too that keep it under 15 yards mostly. That's where most of my shots are too though I am still honing my bigger game skills. I want to repeat that I would never tell people to shoot game at long or short distances. That's up to you and what you know you can do. I was just trying to point out that you can make serious repeatable hits at long distances because stick bows really are not inaccurate. There just seems to be a perception that they are. I shoot at long ranges because it tightens me up when I am closer and I enjoy the challenge.
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I'll take the shooter/hunter as well.
What about the angora goat running away at a quarter and intercepting an arrow at 30 yards dead perfect? I've heard about that story as well. There was a witness to that one as well.
How about the story on that one?
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Originally posted by RC:
Not trying to be a smart tail and not bragging. I have killed over 200 pigs, maybe 150 deer ,turkeys and a whole bunch of small critters. If you totaled them all together my average shot is maybe 12 yards.
I have worked on "systems" to make me a better shot at longer range but shooting instinctive works for me. I tried gap shooting and on the range I was decent in the swamp poor.I found I can shoot instinctive better than I can judge distance with a bow that shoots 160 fps. If a fella is worrying about how far with a longbow in his hand he is hunting with the wrong weapon.
I have killed some 40 yarders and last summer killed a 31 yard pig. I did`nt think how far I thought "broadside.
I think that true instinctive shooting takes years to become good at.A lot of folks these days try it a while and say it is no good.Kinda like shooting a Hill bow,you gotta commit..lol The 3 years or so I shot 3 under set my shooting back a ways. I am now back on track and shooting near as good as my prime. Shoot the way you are most confident at and if it works good at longer ranges it will work surely at the close shots we should all strive for.
One more thing...You don`t have to hit the 10 ring on a deer to make a clean kill. The lungs on a deer are bigger than a milk jug and a lot of those low scoring 5~s would be short blood trails. If a fella practices their woodsman skills half as much as their shooting they would need long shots less. Most new tradbowman will have all the books and vids for shooting but will seldom ask a hunting how too question.Cheers,RC.
:clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
Well said!!!
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I used to shoot 2 arrows while practicing, but now I only shoot one.. It got expensive.. :)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_6464.jpg)
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Jake: Stickbows are only as accurate as the folks shooting them, and most shooters aren't very accurate. I agree that shooting at longer ranges helps improve accuracy on shorter shots as well.
I limit my long range shots for a couple of other reasons. First, if the animal moves just a little from the time the arrow leaves the bow until it hits the animal, it can turn what was an accurate shot into a gut shot, or other low percentage shot. Second, at 40 yards, in any kind of cover, I can't see small brush, sticks, etc., near the critter that might deflect an arrow making it a bad shot. Third, I feel a whole lot better about positioning myself at 10-15 yards from the critter, particularly a mature critter of the species, than I do about a 30-40-yard kill shot.
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I wish I could agree, but distance isn't always the only factor to consider. The only animal I've ever wounded and lost, out of nearly 50 different seasons, was a nice 5x bull elk. The shot was about 70 yards and he went to run as I pulled the trigger. With reaction times like that, a case can be made that a 12 yard shot with a traditional bow is too far because the animal could move from heart/lung to stomach/liver.
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For me to shoot over 25 yards at a deer a number of things need to fall in place. One is if the deer begins to browse on something and if I can time my release to the browsing. A steady speed of a walking deer is quite often more predictable than a nervous deer standing still, but those walking speed shots need to have the shooting style and much practice to make them predictable. It is not something that a lot of guys that practice only static target style form should try out of desperation. I never shoot at a deer that is looking at me, I don't care how close it is, not do I ever shoot at a bounding deer. The last one ran a ways stopped, looked away and started walking still looking away. The Hill head went through a rib, slashed across the back of the heart and out, deflecting and breaking on an oak shrub sized tree. It was more than 20 yards away.
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Well, I will shoot at a deer looking at me depending on the circumstance. The buck in my avatar came out of a poplar thicket with another buck that was a tad bigger than the one I shot. The bigger buck was a full frontal opportunity, the other buck was a slight quarter towards me. The shot was about 25 yards and I actually remember very little about it. My body went into auto pilot mode. From the time I first saw the buck to when it disappeared with my arrow in it was about 3 seconds.
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Jake you bring up a good point. I think it's a matter of simple statistical probability. I am willing to take a 1 to 10 chance that I will wound (ie animal that doesn't die within 2-3 minutes in a heart/lung scenario) the animal and possibly not recover. I'm not willing to take a 1 to 5 chance if that makes sense. In the past I have done some arrow slinging but I've had some close calls as well as animals that suffered too long.
For this reason I limit myself to approximately 25 yards or the yardage then I can consistently put 9 out of 10 arrows into the kill zone but that distance is different for everyone.
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...I might also mention that my 25ish yard guideline is for whitetail. on Elk I'm very confident at 35 yards due to the bigger target. Of course I have no experience actually shooting at an elk lol maybe September!
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Think it is subconscious that we take those shots we are comfortable with. Never thought too much about it until it keeps coming up as a topic, and I think we just overthink it.
Even as a youngster hunting, always passed a shot if I had doubts and it just came natural - didn't even think about it. That would be shooting those bullfrogs between the eyes with my Benjaman pellet gun when wading down creeks outside Coyle, Ok. Had to hit just right or they would stay alive, but between the eyes like my father taught me, they float for a few minutes and you can wade out to get'em. If that shot could not be taken, you waited until that ole frog came up in the water again. Same with bow hunting.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Nice Post Robert!
X2, very well said :thumbsup:
Tracy
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I've been doing most of my practice anywhere from 30 to 50yrds now when I get close to around 15 I shoot over the target. Now I just set my baits up at 30.
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Had to get my 100 post, sounded good to me anyway
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Roy from PA,
That fire extinguisher looks like it's been taking quite a beating!
Three fingers under ain't working for you brother. When you get outta that sling I'll give you a few pointers.
PS. I never did like you.