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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: TURKEYFOOTGIRL on May 17, 2016, 11:24:00 AM
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Friday night i had a big bear weve been pursuing all year come in. Eleven yards from stand. Drew back took my time and shot. Hit right where i was aiming. Watched him walk off for 100 yds. Left until morning to trail. 12 hrs later started trail with my Teckel. Trailed over 600 yards to steep nasty stuff and found bed. Last sign. Was too many blowdowns and too steep to let dog work. Circled and searched that day and the next with my other dog a Drahthaar and never found bear. Sick to stomach.nTrail appeared to be liver hit from every thing i saw. Have always heard not to hug shoulder so kept back a few inches. Total penetration. I videod with two cameras. One over shoulder and one waist level. Could post pics to see what went wrong. Just dont want to cause controversy, want to educate. Im still hunting and will be super nervous next shot. Ive shot a lot of bears with same shot and most go 20 yards.
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In my experience that bear was not liver hit. Never seen a bear that was liver hit go more than 150 yds before laying up - they get sick real fast. It may take all night to bleed out but they don't move. Also from my own experience, a bear that goes that far is not fatally hit. I had a pass thru tight to the shoulder on the biggest bear I have ever seen - same thing happened as you have related - tracked him for 4-5 hours and never found him.
After that happened I was more cautious about shot placement and now go by the rule I saw back then - half way back, half way down and 4" forward.
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If someone is good on photobucket i can send 2 photos of hit. One from each camera.
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Send them to me.
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Having not seen the photos I will say this:
Internal anatomy isn't consistent. Blade rotation and path is always somewhat random. There is always a chance for a 'well hit' animal to escape and live, even when the hit appears letter-perfect. It's our nature to find an explanation or some type of logic, but it defies logic. I have personally seen deer survive chest hits with total penetration from a sharp broadhead. One guy killed the previously-hit buck later and proved it. This kind of thing is why we read about people who take 3 gunshot wounds in the chest and live, while someone gets one in the gut and dies in 20 minutes. I've shot deer squarely through the abdomen/intestines and found them dead quickly in a couple cases.
You might make the same hit on 20 more bears and kill every one of them cleanly. Don't let one fluke occurrence mess with your mind. This is is bowhunting and it's not 100% even when it looks that way.
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http://s53.photobucket.com/user/Chris_Blaskowski/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Picture0516161726_1_zpszvgug5q3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
http://s53.photobucket.com/user/Chris_Blaskowski/media/Mobile%20Uploads/13221742_483336091857701_1796365563004636410_n_zps4zsbwtni.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
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First picture from a camera waist level. 2nd picrure over shoulder. If you zoom way in you can see fletchings.
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I think it's too high and too far back.
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I'm going to watch this one, because that's as close to where I would have shot him as I can imagine. I don't know much about bears.
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Yeah that arrow looks good to me. He is turning into the shot slightly. Should be a dead bear but what Kevin said applies...been there done that. I took care of a guy in the ER that took 2 to the lungs with a .45. Should have been dead as a hammer...walked out in a week.
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A little high but that's not the problem. It's about 4" back at least. The lungs of a bear are small and the heart sits between the elbows.
The hair on them can cause confusion as it hangs down about 3" below the belly and comes off the back of the shoulder crease a bit.
I used to run a bear outfit in Washington state years ago and told the guys to imagine a football between the elbows. Let the air out of it and your golden.
I'm afraid that's a gut shot on that one.
Mike
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Looks perfect to me, that's where I would have shot him too. Mid-body and a little back from the shoulder, great shot, its unfortunate something went wrong.
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Somebody may need to change this picture in our animal shot placement thread!
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh601/ftrahan/bear-target_1.jpg) (http://s1254.photobucket.com/user/ftrahan/media/bear-target_1.jpg.html)
It's not a perfect shot, but seems lethal to me
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I would have thought that was a dead bear too. Good luck on the next one.
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Have shot several bears myself and have to agree with Wingnut on this one .
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Do keep in mind: The higher and farther back you hit lungs, the farther you are from the heart. What this means is that the vasculature is smaller and bleeds less on average. A lung hit back and high is not the same as a lung hit near the heart where many large vessels are present. To this day I still prefer a dead-center (top-to-bottom) shot 4-8" behind the leg. I personally don't sweat the hair length. I pick my elevation and spot it behind the leg into mid-chest.
That bear could have a hole in both lungs and keep right on going to eventually survive. Yes...it does happen.
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g61/Chris_Blaskowski/Mobile%20Uploads/13221742_483336091857701_1796365563004636410_n_zps4zsbwtni.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g61/Chris_Blaskowski/Mobile%20Uploads/Picture0516161726_1_zpszvgug5q3.jpg)
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Agree with Wingnut. Too high and back. A black bear's ribcage is much narrower toward the front, almost cone shaped. Bear ribcage is also more compact for the animal's size which puts relatively smaller heart and lungs further foward.
Never shot one with an arrow but butchered two VT bears my son shot past few years. Hung the ribcage in a tree for the birds to pick at all winter so looked at them a lot and showed them to visitors to point out the difference to deer anatomy.
That picture shows the vital area much too large. Have Boddington's Perfect Shots book which appears to be by the same artist and many of the vitals are not accurately placed. Prose is excellent, though.
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What broadhead?
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Nothing i saw in person or video put the shot any higher than halfway up. Angling from the stand i feel higher would have helped. I just feel the "middle of the middle" for bears is incorrect. Will shoot the next one like a deer. Right in the crease. Not gonna name broadhead cause a friend makes them and i cant blame the head. It was a 1 3/4 inch cut single bevel concave 2 blade. Just sharpened and still sharp after.
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Arrow was soaked in blood. I just felt the blood was dark. Zero smell or gut material.
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Look at this and tell me where you think you hit:
http://www.ballistics101.com/images/bear_images/bearshotplacement.pdf
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Hey Daz. That's real cool! And helpful!
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Nice packet Daz! I would say between 4th and 5th rib from back halfway up. Basically straight up the backside of the offside leg, little light color fur spot. Which shows LIVER. Who made up this middle of the middle thing?
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I have no idea where the "middle of the middle" came from.
I helped out in a Northern SK bear camp growing up, and "leg forward a touch above/behind the elbow" was preached for archers (shoulder break for "the other" hunters").
I tracked more than one bear that had been shot too far back by folks who didn't understand anatomy, or got thrown by the homogenous coat and just "shot at black".
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Daz, that's way different than the previous picture I took off TG thread and GREAT info. IF I ever have an urge to shoot a bear, it will be tucked in the crease and he will be slightly quartering away if I can help it.
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Sorry to hear your story. Ive killed a few bears, lost a few too, and been down dozens of bear blood trails. I would have thought you had made a perfect hit there.
Instances like these are why Im such a believer in big two blade broadheads lik the simmons tree shark. I figure the bigger the head, the more arteries cut, and better blood trail as well. The Ashby studies want to force smaller single bevel heads on us to penetrate heavy bone but our odds are far greater to hit liver, gut, or any other place than the shoulder bone. And I seriously doubt my recurves will push anything through a bon as heavy as a bears.
Again, sorry you lost him. I dont think you did anything wrong there.
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Originally posted by TURKEYFOOTGIRL:
Who made up this middle of the middle thing?
Well, I'm no expert but, if you measure tip of nose to tip of tail (what tail?), "the goodies" are closed to "middle of the middle". Unfortunately, tip of nose to tip of tail isn't how I look at a bear. I do everything I can to ignore the head of any animal (unless I'm trying to shoot it in the head).
I've also heard a very well known archer / hunter who insists that they shoot wild hogs "right in the middle" but that doesn't make sense to me, either.
homebru
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I have to say,seeing those pictures,I would have called that a dead bear.Sometimes stuff just happens.I once shot an antelope right behind the front leg and was later shocked to find that I only got liver.It was recovered,easily.I later shared bear camp with a pathologist and picked his brain about a lot of this stuff.He pointed out there was a big difference in the position of the rear of the lungs between inhale and exhale.It's the only explanation that made sense to me.
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Thanks for sharing this. I would have thought that was the money shot too.
After reading the posts on here, it looks like close in by the shoulder would be the ticket.
Good for you for bringing this up.
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I too have lost a nice bear but wasnt too happy with my shot. I would have been pleased with myself for the shot placement on this bear.
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Unlike ungulates, there can be some big differences in body dimension ratios bear to bear. Older boars will have no neck and carry a lot more weight at shoulders, whereas sows often carry less weight at shoulders and more at the back end.
All of these things can add up to difficulty in the moment ascertaining vitals position, especially on a black bear. We found that there seemed to be less difficulty for hunters placing the shot well on lighter color phase bears (blondes and light cinnamons).
I was stalking a big cinnamon boar near day's end last week, and at one point had to double check, because his body position presented one way, but it didn't seem "right". If i had followed through on shot execution where he was at the aiming point my brain said was there it would not have ended well.
Because hunters don't see bears as often as ungulates, we don't seem to be able to recognize the form as quickly. It's almost as if the novelty of the form throws us off.
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Oh boy, what tuff luck. Your shot was exactly where you were aiming. Interesting feedback and analysis by the group.
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If the bear was looking towards you and he had his body twisted you got guts. My wife did the same thing but we found her bear, we ran it down and another arrow finished it. I helped run a bear camp in northern Manitoba for many years, well over 300 bears were shot in the time I was there. I seen a lot of different and sometimes crazy hits, we once found half an ear laying by the bait and the hunter claimed he had a perfect hit. Bears can be deceiving on where shot placement should be and when you shoot from a tree stand it becomes more difficult because of the shape of the rib cage . I would say the height of the shot you made is perfect especially from a tree stand, but you are to far back for the slight angle he is giving you. We also found out one other thing that helped on marginal hits we switched to multi blade heads. You may cut something that a 2 blade will miss and penetration isn't any different.
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g61/Chris_Blaskowski/Mobile%20Uploads/download_zpsu66ajvld.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/Chris_Blaskowski/media/Mobile%20Uploads/download_zpsu66ajvld.jpg.html)
This shot is interesting but it looks like lungs and liver gone.
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g61/Chris_Blaskowski/Mobile%20Uploads/download%201_zpsb8hk8c0l.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/Chris_Blaskowski/media/Mobile%20Uploads/download%201_zpsb8hk8c0l.jpg.html)
This image looks like almost exactly my shot. Should scoot forward 4 to 6 inches
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Thanks for posting this! Very informative. Taking notes...
Definitely saving that bear shot placement guide. Thanks Daz
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Great thread! Very Helpful!
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TURKEY- I was a little confused on your last post with the pic of the live bear. . . ?? Are you saying the red dot is where you DID HIT- or is the red dot where you SHOULD HAVE HIT?
The position of the off leg really reveals a dramatic shift in the vitals. I know when shooting other animals we are often looking for that line to the off shoulder.
Great thread and info as mentioned. Thanks for helping educate us.
Dan in KS
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Its justva image i found on the web. I dont think my point of impact was far off from that red dot. Maybe back a touch but well within the circle. When i was at full draw on the bear he was quartering away decent then just before release he turned broadside. Maybe still slightly quartering.
Next time i will aim towards the front of the circle in that picture.
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Having been at Bear Quest for 12 years, I would give guys anatomy lessons on why they had a great shot or lucky shot on the bears we were skinning. The shot looked OK...but one peculiarity of the bear chest is that it is cone shape flaring at the abdomen and narrowing toward the front legs. I've seen where a broadhead skimmed off a rib and slid forward never entering the chest. One bear we skinned had that happen to but the arrow cut the brachial plexus (where all the major vessels come out of the chest to the front leg) as it slid forward. So even though the shot looks good, it could have been defelected and neve entered the chest...thus a flesh/muscle cut.
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That's exactly what happened to me on a nice cinnamon Bear Jeff. We saw later on video that the bear turned at my release. My arrow skipped along ribs and under shoulder blade. A friend of mine killed the Bear two weeks later. His entry hole was two inches from where I hit. Seeing your pix on original post I too would have thought "Dead Bear".
But as Kevin said weird things happen.
Two years ago I thought I shot a nice buck thru the heart. Trailed him for two days over 3 miles on fresh snow and never even saw him again.
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That Bear is dead close by ! Sell your Teckel and look for ravens !
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Looking at the pictures I can sure see why you are questioning what went wrong - I would have felt very good about that shot. But as Tippit said, strange things happen. A bears chest is amazingly cone shaped as it comes up under the front legs. Once you take the front quarters off one you can really see it.
I'm wondering if the high angle of your shot had anything to do with it? Personally, I disagree with those who say your hit was too high - I am thinking the opposite. It looks like it was a bit below mid-line, and combined with that steep angle that might just have caused the arrow to slip along outside the rib cage.
99 times out of 100, your bear would have been down within less than 100 yards. But sometimes strange stuff does happen, and luck still plays a part - sometimes good, sometimes bad.
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Yeah i feel that bear is somewhere in there. Not sure how he made it so far. Watching video it doesnt appear anything weird happened angle wise. It went straight thru and hit log leaning at bait. Was back in today listening for ravens. Heard and saw some but never anything looking like a kill site.
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I guess if we could hit a baseball-sized spot with 100% reliability (bear distances) we would see fewer of them go unrecovered. I'm personally not completely convinced this bear died from that shot. I would have bet MONEY it did, had I been there and seen the hit. But again, there is a certain degree of roulette when you combine internal anatomy, blade alignment/path, subtle animal movements or reactions, etc. Would the exact same hit produce the exact same outcome (unrecovered bear) most of the time? My thought is no...it wouldn't. Did the bear ultimately die? I think it's reasonable to believe it did but not until making it's escape good.
Would a 3-blade do better? Some say it would, but I'm not convinced. I too have had multiple instances of 3-blade heads skipping off ribs on angled shots and sliding between the chest and shoulder. I recovered one and proved it. Would a hit 4" forward produce 100% kill rates? I doubt it. Sooner or later Murphy shows up and wrecks our logic. Being logical humans we always try to find the logical answer to a puzzle, but in some cases the outcome is a matter of randomness and illogic. I can accept that, even if I don't enjoy having it happen to me.
Great discussion.
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I studied your picture more and I see the hair of the elbow under the chest and it is far back. the back half of the bear is broadside but the front half is turned looking towards you . He has his body twisted creating a forward quartering shot . You may have gotten only one lung .
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Can drawing.a video on photobucket? I could edit to like ten seconds. Bear is quartering but turns head toward me when he hears me drawing.
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g61/Chris_Blaskowski/th_chris%20lost%20bear_zpsxffy3ugc.mp4) (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g61/Chris_Blaskowski/chris%20lost%20bear_zpsxffy3ugc.mp4)
heres a fifteen second clip of shot. I do believe it was all liver. No lung and just a bit back.
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i think ur right about the liver hit
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Its a lot plainer in the video he wasn't twisted or quartering towards you just shot alittle far back and Im sure you feel bad about it . The last bear I shot was in 99, I made a bad shot and hit him right in the middle of the guts, I had shot about 25 bears and he was the only one that got hit to far back. I watched him go about 50 yards and drop dead on the run no death moan, no kicking or thrashing it was just like he fell asleep in mid stride, it surprised the heck out of me. The next thought in my head was thank god for Snuffers!
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Originally posted by TURKEYFOOTGIRL:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g61/Chris_Blaskowski/th_chris%20lost%20bear_zpsxffy3ugc.mp4) (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g61/Chris_Blaskowski/chris%20lost%20bear_zpsxffy3ugc.mp4)
heres a fifteen second clip of shot. I do believe it was all liver. No lung and just a bit back.
Agree with you a little to far back .
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I've killed three black bears with 42, 35 and 60 yard recoveries, no losses. I believe your shot was too far back. In my opinion, the first presentation at the start of the sequence with the slight quartering away was your best shot. At the time of the shot, he's actually turned slightly towards you on the front end and the left front leg was actually coming back (maybe at sound of shot) and gives the illusion that the shot is closer to the lungs than it was. Finally, all three bears I've shot took off like scalded cats, yours actually looks hunched up in his run out-just like a gut shot deer. I distinctly remember marveling at how quickly a bear can move with each one I shot. Yours looked like a trot out compared to mine with that little bit of footage.
I'm sorry you lost this bear. No one obviously likes to see that, but it is a good learning discussion, especially on how we may see an arrow and where it actually hit.
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Im hoping my wife or i get another crack this year. I would like to slowly dissect one and get lots of pictures. Its crazy how the bear had his front foot all the way back by the back foot seconds before i shot. My intent was to shoot that quartering shot then she turned at full draw and i thought broadside. Perfect...
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I believe that shot was low and too far back. When hunting bears from a tree stand better to be high than low.