Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: BAK on September 02, 2016, 10:17:00 AM
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I've had a couple of ASAT suits over the years, and they worked very well in certain environments.
Here's where they don't; I do most of my hunting from tree stands now in large dark barked trees here in Iowa, Maples, Oaks, Bass Woods etc. The ASAT suit is an over all light colored outfit.
I have been busted multiple times wearing it during low light periods. I've hung it up in the tree and gotten back and looked at it myself. I show up like a neon sign up there wearing it.
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I hunt Ohio every year in hardwoods and I have not been busted while wearing ASAT 3D - unless I was moving too much
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I don't think any camo pattern will work in all situations. That's why I have several patterns. Luckily, all my current camo seems to match the locations where I hunt. Does ASAT come in multiple colorations?
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As with all things I should have added my disclaimer, your mileage may vary. LOL
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(http://i65.tinypic.com/20avwww.jpg)
I think it blends in pretty well where I hunt. Buddy took this shot of me after he walked over to find me after a morning hunt and couldn't. He was like, you blend in so good!
Asbell wool and Asat bibs.
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KS Dan has done pretty well with it.
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I hunted for years in Germany (not bow hunting unfortunately). Camo is relatively new there. In the past hunters wore medium green pants and coat with a light green shirt. I'm convinced it's movement that game spots rather than colors. The main criticism of American hunters outfits by German foresters was that their clothing was much too dark.
I was sitting up against a large tree squirrel hunting many years ago near St Louis, MO wearing a cream and green checkered shirt and jeans. Two hunters walked by me within 5 feet and never noticed me.
Just my experience FWIW.
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I dyed my ASAT so the white is a light brown color and I think that helps.
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Let me ask you, have you used UV killers on it?? Anytime I've been picked off in low light was in my old stuff that was washed I'm scent less detergent, but had brightners in it. I'm convinced deer see UV better at dusk than they do during the daylight. I've never had a prob with ASAT.
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It ain't the camo's fault, as Bladepeek already said! It's movement or a lack of cover. Camo makes zero difference to a deer. It sure causes hunters to unhinge their wallets, though.
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I believe deer are colorblind? I like a camo pattern that has a good mix up of light and dark. I agree most camo is too dark for my liking, and makes you just look like a dark blob. Mossy oak has always seemed too dark to me, except for the tree stand pattern. I've never worn ASAT, but in the pic above it looks pretty darn good.
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Likewise - been busted before sunset in-the-dark-shade ground blinds. Try spraying some light gray on it. The "white" of the pattern appears unnatural in those situations. Most often it's an old 'alpha' doe who figures it out.
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I agree. I don't like ASAT either in anything but wool. The synthetic variation is too harsh of a contrast. The black is too black, and the tan is too light in hardwoods. I feel the same about Kuiu's original pattern. I cringe when I see midwesterners in it. It looks good in tundra at rifle distances, but aside from that, you look like a ZEBRA.
However, My old hunting partner has an ASAT wool pullover that is faded and muted and he kills a lot of deer out of it. But... He literally left it out in the sun for weeks to soften its color.
With that said I rarely get busted out here (messy brushy Cottonwood river bottom thickets) wearing a very muted Sleeping Indian wool pattern. But when I go back to Ill and hunt hardwood forests with ONLY VERTICAL limbless straight trees, I think I look like I'm floating in space if a deer approaches at a right angle to me. I get busted when I'm literally frozen... NO MOVEMENT.
It's easy for guys defending a pattern to say, "you moved". But I have been doing this 30 years and there is something else going on. I think Its the lack of cover, and the variance in normal vertical tree pattern that the deer pick up.
Or maybe Illinois whitetails are just smarter than Montana deer.
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It all depends upon the makeup of the terrain/area you're hunting. If there are darker tree's, leaves, etc go with a darker pattern. If the area consists of lighter surroundings go with something that is lighter for example ASAT.
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Not trying to be a jerk but the wool in the above photo to my eyes blends in better than the camo. Our eyes are all made the same but our mind "see's" a little different from person to person.
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I agree with M60gunner that the wool shirt is much more effective than the ASAT in that photo. I also agree with some of the statements that UV may be a factor in how well deer see us.
Years ago, UV was a topic covered in a whole bunch of articles. The consensus was that, basically, deer see deeper into the UV spectrum than we do. Many of the dyes used in clothes (including commercial camo)use UV as a "brightener". We see it as a bolder color, and the deer see it as a glow.
My son is an artist, and I like his take on camo shading and color. His view is that the most effective camo would be one that gives the impression of space. If the colors and shades are right, you don't get the impression of a solid object, but rather there seems to be a space with smaller objects suspended in it, such as you often see with foliage.
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Deer and most mammals dont see how we see. All you need, is something that breaks up your form. ASAT does just that, very well.
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I think Asat would be great in tree stands after the leaves drop. I also found the Asbell wool a better blend. I think Asat would stand out in my Maine ground blinds that use fir branches as my background fill.
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If I can remember I'll do a photo later in the year of some up in a big old oak and show you the results.
I am talking about later in the year when you don't have all the leaves to hide behind.
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just saying' but the wise old alpha doe is gonna bust out ANY time there is something in the area that wasn't there yesterday. hardest thing in the woods to kill, IMO.
i have had great success with ASAT, and have it on everything from wool to cotton to 3-D leafy. i have noticed that as the sun sets and the shadows get longer, the light part of the pattern does seem to stand out a little much.
the key, of course, is not to move. they just can't see you if you don't.
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oops. double post.
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IMO, camo patterns are like fishing lures, designed to catch us, not the fish/critter.
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Best I ever had was the old original Skyline - Apparition. Exceptional when up in a tree stand.
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Originally posted by BAK:
I am talking about later in the year when you don't have all the leaves to hide behind.
There are (or should be) tons of twigs, and limbs in the canopy around you....esp when on the ground looking up. Clouds are light colored many times....the whole skyward is lighter. You would blend perfectly,,,especially without leaves. ASAT, Skyline Apparition, and Predator Fall gray, all capitalize on this fact.
If you actually got seen late, id guess the camo had nothing to do with it. Once light fades, everything goes into silhouette. If so, you'd look like a totally black blob up there in the shape of a person. Camo goes away when no light can reflect detail. ....and/or you moved!
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I have been using ASAT before there was "ASAT." I use to make my own. Been using it commercially for 30 years. Sure like it. Sure have a lot of deer and turkeys look "right through/past me."
I know the arguments- and I agree that wool has a soft edge and tones that are tremendous. I also like the original BROWN Predator (which I do have in wool from Bemidji- woohoo!!)
But assuming deer don't see color, look at the above posted photo here in black/white. Imagine it in focus with the surrounding area (out of focus in photo). There is no "blob." ASAT "disappears." And truly- my overall experience is animals look past me.
When it comes to trad- I have to draw a bow in the animal presence. Dead quiet (DEAD quiet- fleece, wool, or well worn cotton!!). And broken patterns sure seem to work well.
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/asat_zpsztziucgb.jpg) (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/danrudman/media/asat_zpsztziucgb.jpg.html)
Dan in KS
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I hung coveralls, coat and pants in trees of varied camo patterns once...
The big bold light and dark blotch stuff did well close and far off. The common stuff we see today with many colors with small limb patterns, blended into one "man outline blob "when you got back more then 20 yards...
However, what we did notice, was standing their talking 40 yards away, with the varied patterns off our shoulder in peripheral vision, was when a breeze moved the garments, the big blob of lighter patterns "FLASHED" and caught our eye.
So the concept of movement gets one more vote from me. Lighter segments seem to reflect ambient light way more.
Traditionally, I wear one pattern up top and a different type /style camo bottoms, just to avoid the blobing of a man silhouette. .
I've also hunted with guys who used their wife's laundry product which most all have "brighteners" in them... As the light dropped, I could spot them like a blue-ish glow off in the woods...
I think (agree w/ others) brighteners, UV and movement trump all but the darkest patterns. I also agree positive and negative spaces in linear fashion help conceal to a point especially in late season tree tops!
Many of us have experienced or read that gun hunting, we'd sit with flour orange on and have deer step over outstretched feet/legs, if the wind was right and we remained motionless.
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To my eyes the Asbell wool is more camouflaged than the high dollar ASAT.
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How much is Asbell wool anyway? I can get ASAT pretty darn cheap....
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It's not the pattern, it's the movement or the sight of a big glob up in a tree.
Rule #1 - don't stare at a deer ever except when drawing and picking the spot. NEVER make eye contact.
It helps, but no camo makes you invisible. A deer would be just as alarmed by a moving stump with eyes as a human.
The buck in my avatar was 15 yards from me while still hunting at ground level in solid dull colors. No camo at all except a Winona forage cap (I did have face paint when I shot). I only moved when the deer's head was behind a tree.
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I like my original Predator camo!
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What Sean B said. (UV killer helps)
ASAT camo is very effective because it works visually at the distance most game animals will be encountered. It doesn't turn into a dark blob at twenty yards like many modern camo patterns do.
I like the old 1940's WWII style camo Fred Bear used to wear,too.Big shapes and lots of contrast.
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Here's my theory on it. How many animals have patterns on them to help them blend in? I know there are a few, but most are predominantly a solid color, usually brown or gray. And we all know how quickly a deer will disappear when it stops moving. Camo patterns add limbs, leaves, shadows, etc., but those things already exist in nature. If there are lots of limbs, they will be crisscrossed both behind and in front of you. If there are shadows being cast, they will be cast on top of you as well. Solid brown, green, or gray doesn't look like a big sheet of solid colored paper when you wear it, it has various shades because the varying angles, shapes, and folds show up as light or dark spots depending on the lighting conditions. It's the same principal that allows you to distinguish the outline of a dear's shoulder, ribs, and hind quarters even though it's a uniform color throughout. Most of last year, I hunted in OD green cargo pants and a brown fleece pullover. My go to spot is a 14" ladder with a fairly small amount of cover, and I watched deer all year from as close as 4-5 yards. The only times I got busted was when they smelled me, when they were in a position where my outline was visible, or when they caught me moving. Not saying the various camo patterns don't work well in certain situations, but I think dull solids or softer patterns like plaid wool or flannel are more versatile for using in a variety of areas.
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Originally posted by M60gunner:
Not trying to be a jerk but the wool in the above photo to my eyes blends in better than the camo. Our eyes are all made the same but our mind "see's" a little different from person to person.
what he said...
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Originally posted by Tajue17:
Originally posted by M60gunner:
....the wool in the above photo to my eyes blends in better than the camo.
what he said... [/b]
X3 here...
Also, it has become apparent to me through the years that if I use two totally different "patterns" on top and bottom, my "blob" appearance is diminished by half. Years ago I took Terry's approach to wearing a dull, earth toned pant with my Brown Deception pullover. It worked well on the ground and up high.
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I agree a lot with what matt said, lots of game has been taken in my area by people wearing brown carhartt pants and bibs.
I like predator because the big open spaces kind of create the illusion that you are looking "through" it. At least in my mind. But big block plaid can act much the same.
I also wash my hunting gear with baking soda instead of laundry detergent, I have no clue what a deer does and does not see, but its easy enough to wash them separately so why not.
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Try stalking turkeys and you will get an education on camo. ASAT has beat a lot of birds for me. Notice in the BW photo above that if everything were in focus- like reality- you would never see the edge of the hunters outline. I see on this thread a lot about movement- I get away with a lot of movement with either ASAT or Predator. Also- I have friends who use ASAT leafy for ground hunting. Deer often look through them even when they are drawing their bows.
Just 2C more
Dan in KS
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X2 KSdan
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If asat doesn't work I should be in real trouble cause I rarely wear camo at all...lol
I'm usually in solid color cargo pants and a solid color shirt with a camo vest and solid hat.
But to mimic as said above asat is one of the best camo designs for how animals see. For get how it looks to us. It's all about the animals view.
More importantly, if you are relying on your camo ad part of your 'hiding system" you should rethink things a bit. Any camo is highly over rated. It's your front and rear cover, skylining, etc that gets makes or breaks the hunt in my opinion.
But it I had to pick one camo pattern as the best my vote would be for asat. Regardless of material type.
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Originally posted by LB_hntr:
If asat doesn't work I should be in real trouble cause I rarely wear camo at all...lol
I'm usually in solid color cargo pants and a solid color shirt with a camo vest and solid hat.
But to mimic as said above asat is one of the best camo designs for how animals see. For get how it looks to us. It's all about the animals view.
More importantly, if you are relying on your camo ad part of your 'hiding system" you should rethink things a bit. Any camo is highly over rated. It's your front and rear cover, skylining, etc that gets makes or breaks the hunt in my opinion.
But it I had to pick one camo pattern as the best my vote would be for asat. Regardless of material type.
Couldn't agree more. In spite of what I said above about not needing camo, asat is one of the better looking camos I've seen. The modern high definition photographic patterns haven't impressed me in real world applications.
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Originally posted by 9 Shocks:
(http://i65.tinypic.com/20avwww.jpg)
I think it blends in pretty well where I hunt. Buddy took this shot of me after he walked over to find me after a morning hunt and couldn't. He was like, you blend in so good!
Asbell wool and Asat bibs.
That is a fantastic picture....and I swear on my honor I am not trying to sell wool here.....but I think the wool plaid blends better than the ASAT
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Originally posted by Roger Norris:
Originally posted by 9 Shocks:
(http://i65.tinypic.com/20avwww.jpg)
I think it blends in pretty well where I hunt. Buddy took this shot of me after he walked over to find me after a morning hunt and couldn't. He was like, you blend in so good!
Asbell wool and Asat bibs.
That is a fantastic picture....and I swear on my honor I am not trying to sell wool here.....but I think the wool plaid blends better than the ASAT [/b]
I agree
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I don't think there is a perfect pattern for all situations. The asat looks a little light up against the tree but in open woods looks great. The wool plaid is probably more versatile. I use a home made leafy suit I cut from camo blind material. It fooled a whole flock of turkeys at 15 yards standing in the open.
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Originally posted by Marc B.:
Originally posted by Roger Norris:
Originally posted by 9 Shocks:
(http://i65.tinypic.com/20avwww.jpg)
I think it blends in pretty well where I hunt. Buddy took this shot of me after he walked over to find me after a morning hunt and couldn't. He was like, you blend in so good!
Asbell wool and Asat bibs.
That is a fantastic picture....and I swear on my honor I am not trying to sell wool here.....but I think the wool plaid blends better than the ASAT [/b]
I agree [/b]
I definitely feel that the plaid is better. Dont get me wrong, I do believe that asat can break up your outline with its ability to create lost and found edges. Look at how my leg fades into the trunk of the tree shadows.
I think its tough to beat a good plaid shirt though. High contrasting clothes has always been my go to. The woods have so many shadows and highlights and variations that I try and find dark darks and lighter lights in all my clothing to fit the bill depending on the time of year.
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Dull, muted clothing is the key, not the pattern. The material the garment is made out of can make a huge difference in the light reflection.
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n559/jeffbschulz/longbowphotos003-4.jpg) (http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/jeffbschulz/media/longbowphotos003-4.jpg.html) (http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n559/jeffbschulz/longbow054_zpsda68dc7d.jpg) (http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/jeffbschulz/media/longbow054_zpsda68dc7d.jpg.html)
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Wool absorbs light, cotton and synthetics reflect light.
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So your buddy climbed a tree and took the pic? First of all, if he did, it's not what the deer sees unless he's in the tree. Everything looks different from a deers viewpoint.
Personally, I like light colored camo. When a deer looks up, the sky/clouds are light colored. Its like they look through me.
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Agree too about apparent light absorption. "Seems" wool and even cottons do a much better job than some of the higher tech materials.
This thread seemed more about ASAT or not- rather than wool and other materials. My original ASAT for years was the older cotton versions- though colder weather always saw me in wool in older Brown Predator (very near ASAT if you have not seen it before). In these days- I still use Predator, but much of my seasons will be ASAT in the Merino versions from First Lite.
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Deer jump right into the grill of my truck and it ain't camo at all. :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl:
Seriously now I have excellent luck with ASAT leafy until the wind shifts or if I move too fast.
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Try wearing Plaid wool, it may be better!
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http://www.atsko.com/u-v-killer-18-oz-trigger-spray/
I used to get busted years ago but not any longer. 99% of clothes have brighteners in the fabric that deer can see like a light on in a dark room. I am a firm believer that deer can not see all the detail in some camo pattern, but see the UV brighteners instead. Atsko UV-Killer works. Amazing stuff and I even seen that Dead Down Wind has a version called "UV-Gaurd".
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I exclusively hunt from the ground these days and I'm a huge fan of ASAT. I use a wool ASAT pullover. The contrast and colors have softened over the years. Deer seem to look right through it. In my 7 years of trad hunting I've gotten closer to deer in this pattern then anyother I have used. Last season I had a nice 6pt within 3 yards.
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If a deer gets so close that the hunters fills the "frame", as in the photo, you're likely busted:)
As a lifelong visual artist and art teacher for 25 years I see the natural world differently than most hunters, just as hunters see the world differently than non-hunters.All good points above, though.
I think a face mask makes a big difference for deer and definitely turkeys.
Of course, being stealthy means more than camouflage. It means keeping movements slow, reading a deer's body language(which comes from experience), moving at the right time,shooting a quiet bow, etc.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn66/tarponnut/NC%20doe.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/tarponnut/media/NC%20doe.jpg.html)
I took this yearling last fall in NC, she was with a mature doe and another yearling at 8 yards (for five minutes before I shot)! I was 12 feet up a tree(I told it was way too low:) Check out my camo!
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We can argue camo patterns and materials all day long and probably never reach consensus.
One thing that most of us probably agree on is that background makes more of a difference than camo or anything in front of you. I always hunt the opening day of firearms season with my younger son at his father-in-law's farm. There is a fence line which is also the property line. It is ripe with deer travel, but we always avoided it as the neighbor is also a hunter and it felt a bit like poaching his land. We have permission now to shoot on his side of the line, so my son put up a tree stand right on the fence line. There is a large, broad hardwood that has no place on its trunk for a ladder stand. Instead he used a skinny little tree which has practically no upper structure. No matter what camo you are wearing, including a gillie suit, you would be silhouetted against the sky regardless of the time of day. In order to not hurt my son's feelings, I agreed to sit there opening day. In one sense it was a good stand in that it allowed me to see deer moving everywhere around the area. Next day I got back on the edge of the woodlot. All the trees are bare at that time of the year, but the swaying limbs and the moving shadows they create are very effective in masking outlines no matter what you are wearing if you have adequate bulk behind you to break up your outline.