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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Michael Arnette on October 27, 2016, 08:55:00 PM
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So I've been having relatively good luck with narrow single bevel heads. I've been a big fan of wider broadheads but have been having a lot of trouble with flight...hence the narrow two blade and amazing grizzly broadheads for the past year. I'll be keeping them for elk to get good penetration. But am curious for whitetail.
...I got some Simmons interceptors after my first pathetic blood trail using the grizzlies. It was a perfect shot on a nice doe and I got one drop of blood. No complaint from the grizzlies as they did their job...there's just only so much a small diameter can do. Poor blood can happen with any broadhead but it got me curious about trying something bigger.
It turns out I was not able to get the Simmons to fly quite as well as I would like so I ordered some of these very expensive but very high-quality Byron Ferguson heads from Schmeiser archery.
They fly beautifully! And holy cow is this some quality steel! It puts every other head I've sharpened to shame. I think I'm going to give them a go on whitetails and turkeys. What is you vote. (Price isn't an issue for me on broadheads).
I'm shooting a 62# TallTines with a 570gr arrow at 185ish fps so plenty of energy for either head.
(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy206/cottonwood88/Mobile%20Uploads/image_49.jpeg) (http://s792.photobucket.com/user/cottonwood88/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_49.jpeg.html)
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FYI The grizzlies are staying in my quiver for hogs for sure, no way am I shooting a $34 Broadhead at a hog lol plus they are great penetrators and bone busters. Just a good broadhead
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So long as they are scary sharp and fly true it really makes no difference. The only question I have is ,if the Grizzlies are working for you why by "hi end broad heads ?
No disrespect intended
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ive also been curious about those heads keep us posted on how they do
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Certainly am hopeful you attain what you desire.
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whoa, whats the cutting diameter on the left head?? thing looks deadly, id love to follow a blood trail from that head.
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I have been contemplating going back to a 3 blade broadhead. The blood trails with snuffers never disappointed me but they never felt as sharp as a 2 blade. I'm shooting interceptors and tree sharks myself but have some doubts on the tree sharks.
I will add that my wide 2 blades seem to fly better oriented horizontal. I'm curious was it a flight issue for you or accuracy. Mine are glue on mounted on adaptors and spin tested then fletched according to the broadhead then numbered to the arrow.
But with Byrons name is on it I doubt it will dissappoint.
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Originally posted by huronhunter:
So long as they are scary sharp and fly true it really makes no difference. The only question I have is ,if the Grizzlies are working for you why by "hi end broad heads ?
No disrespect intended
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With you shooting that kind of poundage, why are you not looking to a 3-blade if you're main reason for switching is more blood on the ground? Just curious.
That head looks wicked!
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Well my vote is for the Schmeiser as it looks like a representative of the Simmons style head and I know they leave great blood trails.
Curious why you were not able to get good flight with the Simmons? I do have to spend some time to get mine aligned and spinning true, but it seems to be an issue with certain insert rather than the heads.
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I'd go with the wider head. At62#, penetration is not an issue. I went from the 1 1/8" wide GK head to the 1 1/2" wide GK head and the blood trails are (usually) noticeably better.
Bisch
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Originally posted by Caleb Monroe:
I will add that my wide 2 blades seem to fly better oriented horizontal. I'm curious was it a flight issue for you or accuracy.
That's funny, I get better flight when my 2 blades are oriented vertically...both small and large diameter. I've tried both orientations and the simmons were all over the place when mounted horizontally... passable but not satisfactory when mounted vertical.
The Simmons just weren't flying consistently accurate...there were too many flyers. I've had the same problem with big 3 blades like the snuffer 160 and I'm sure it has to do with my form and tuning because they seem to fly great for other folks.
I'm with you on the treeshark...I tried them last year and all over the map! I envy those of you who can get them to fly well
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Originally posted by pete p:
whoa, whats the cutting diameter on the left head?? thing looks deadly, id love to follow a blood trail from that head.
1 9/16th" ...just over 1.5"
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I have had some problems with getting good broadhead flght in the past, even though I was pretty well-turned. I came up with a theory, and so far it's proven true for me...
The issue is that when the arrow flexes as it comes out of the bow, and since the arrow isn't flying straight until the feathers straighten it out, that wing (broadhead) on the front of the arrow starts catching air and pulls the arrow off in a different direction. It makes sense that if that "wing" is positioned to cut through the air instead of planing against it, that maybe the broadhead can cut through the air and the arrow can straighten out before going off course. So, I took a few arrows and a torch out and shot a few. If the flight wasn't good, I heated the glue, twisted the insert in the shaft about 30°, and tried it again. Eventually I found a configuration that flew straight. I then twisted all my inserts to seat the broadhead at the same angle in relation to the cock feather, and I was good to go. I got great arrow flight out of those arrows. And since everyone has unique ticks and bad habits and arrow flight quirks, it makes sense that vertically-aligned broadheads work for some, horizontal for others, and various angles in-between for others still.
Lately, all my broadheads seem to fly well no matter how they are positioned, so I haven't had to bother with it. I am shooting big Zwickey's out of my 68# recurve this season, and they fly just fine.
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how much do the Byron heads cost compared to the grizzly's? and have you tried the Centaur Heads?
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I'd go with the bigger head, but no surprise there :)
One issue with broadhead flight that often gets overlooked - like Archie said - you're putting a "wing" out front - only makes sense to put a bigger "wing" on the back - Michael, what are you using for feathers? Maybe get a bit more feather on the back? I don't know if this applies to your setup or not.
I know it is a fad nowadays with traditional archers to use tiny feathers, but there IS a reason feathers are on an arrow in the first place, and within reason bigger is better. I'm not a fanatic "tuner" - over time I have gained an understanding of what spine arrows work for me and my setups, and all I do is shoot fletched arrows with broadheads, watch the flight, and say "good to go" or "not good to go".
Good arrow flight is paramount, but you can really make up for things with more feather...like big broadheads, or a muffed release etc. Its OK to shoot a touchy setup (and small feathers are touchy) for form development, but for hunting I want a forgiving setup and big feathers are that. I like 4 X 5.5 inch medium to high profile parabolic burned feathers set at 60/120 spacing with as much helical as I can get. For 3 fletch the old "Maxi-fletch" if you remember those, were nice. They were 5.5 or 6 inches long, and high profile banana cut.
I've never had a flight problem with big heads - and big feathers.
Just an "old school" thought....
R
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Those Ferguson heads look exactly like the Simmons Interceptors. If the Fergusons fly well out of your setup, I'm sort of baffled why the Simmons won't. I shoot the screw-in Simmons Interceptors and they fly great.
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I am also a little surprised about the flight issues on the Simmons. I have never had a problem with Interceptors or Tree Sharks. I would shoot the bigger head with your set up especially since it sounds like you can get them sharp.
The Centaur heads are also good and come in 1.75" width.
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I have been on the two blade bandwagon for years. Zwickey Eskimos for years and this year 225 gr Tuffheads. Penetration was the goal. Always wanting that offside hole. This fall I had the privilege of bear hunting with a friend that "knows" bears, Sergio Venneri. I can't thank him enough for opening my eyes to the Rothhaar Snuffer. It's appearance flies in the face of current Ashby style thought. It's such a big wide three blade it just shouldn't fly or penetrate, right? Wrong! It was fantastic. Flew great and opened up a bear and blood trail like nothing else I've seen. Bear went 25 yards. As Sergio challenged me "Penetration is great, but after a pass through how far do you really need to bury it in the ground?" At realistic bowhunting distances I'm sold on the massive hole and quick death these produce.
I'm shooting 60# @ 27" longbow with cedar 580 gr arrows.
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I'm with Bisch, I don't think penetration is much of a problem but one thing that I think is overlooked is an archer's form when shooting at an animal. I think short drawing when shooting down, nerves, shooting from odd positions can all make our perfectly tuned arrow not fly well and a wide broadhead can really take off. We have shot together and you know my form is never good so that is why I shoot a long narrow broadhead. Also I don't think a quarter inch wider cut makes much difference. I would stick with the grizzles. JMHO
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FWIW, I have had broadhead tuning issues in the past, but it was only because of my arrows weren't tuned. If I bareshaft my arrows and they are flying like darts, it wont matter, period. I have shot the huge tree sharks on 3-3" feathers. The simmons interceptor is the a great head and I've never had any problem getting them to fly.
Michael, I'd bet your WAY over spined remembering you asking about a .300 spined arrow a couple of weeks ago. I know 2 examples to go by.
1. Curt Cabrera shoots a .340 spine(if I remember correctly) out of a bow around #60 with the big jim 300 grain 3 blade on front.
2. Chris Spikes shoots around #62(if I remember correctly) and he also shoots a .340 with a brass insert and the 190 grain tree sharks, so both of those guys are shooting right at 300 grains up front from a #60 bow and are shooting .340's.
(just thinking out loud here)
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Go with a 3 blade, no more issues!
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Thanks Daniel, I've bareshafted for spine...I don't think my issue is spine I think it has to do with tiller/nock hieght. It's been a problem ever since I switched to 3 under shooting and I think that would explain why they don't fly well horizontally but do vertically. The vertical tune is what I am having trouble with.
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I've tried some big 2 blades..tusker aztec, the big ace etc.
I couldn't get them to fly well either.
I imagine it was my form too...cause in theory any head should fly well if all things are tuned well...including a well tuned form..lol
Anyway... I've more or less decided those big planing surfaces just magnify my mistakes.
So I've switched to a 1 1/8" cut 3 blade.
They don't plane near as much at all.
when you do the math...
1.125"÷2=.5625" (height of each blade)
.5625"x3=1.6875"=1 11/16" of total cutting blade.
so with the tiny 1 1/8" 3-blade head that doesn't seem to plane hardly at all, I'm getting more cutting than the big Byron head (1 19/32").
...not to mention they cost about 1/3 the price.
The tree shark type of design does seem to "tear" darn big holes though through the skin..not sure about the less stretchy parts in the middle.
just food for thought..
to answer your question though...if you like those byron heads and they fly well for ya they'll certainly do the job on deer...
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I have killed many deer over the years. Nothing has impressed me more than the Simmons Treesharks. Arrows about 600gr pushed with 47#@ 27" blow right though deer.
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I can shoot bare shafts to 30 yards and they fly like a lazer beam. (Tweak your tuning more) you need to have good solid form consistency. If not shoot Bigger fletch or 4 fletchings.
You hunting deer n Turks. Shoot a 3 blade woodsman elites or Vpa.
Save the single bevels for hogs. My 2 cents.
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Caleb, you should try the Grizzly Instincts. You will not have any problem getting them scary sharp.
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I switched from grizzlies to 3 blades and 4 blades heads because when I hit the shoulder bone I couldn't penetrate with the grizzlies. I figured it was better to put a big hole on marginal shots if I avoided the shoulder. It has worked out well for me since blood trails have been great. I shoot the Palmer Extreme cut broad head currently which is basically an oversized Muzzy phantom.
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I like the quote Mint.
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Don't overthink it Michael. You've had a heck of a season so far, don't let one blood trail make you re-think things...especially right in the middle of season. I've had the same thing happen on perfect hits with big 3 blade heads. No two blood trails are the same and sometimes they just don't make sense.
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Got to say it though...if you got poor blood with a Grizzly it was shot placement not the broadhead as I have shot hogs and bear with a Grizzly Kodiak and looked like someone was using a bucket to slosh it around.
That being said....dont over think it too much...but I would find a broadhead you have confidence and use it. If the broadhead is sharpened properly and put where you intend it to go or very close....and is of stout construction and a proven design...it is going to put the animal down.
As far as arrow flight...the broadheads have to be on balanced...I spin mine while mounting on wood shafts while the glue sets up with downward pressure. Then spin test to see if any wobble...if yes, then reheat, reposition and do it again. Typically I get it the first or second try...
I shoot 190 Ribteks, 200 Grizzly Kodiaks, and the Grizzly Instincts (3 blade)...all fly great. If I have poor flight it is usually my release not the arrowhead.
Bill Dunn is coming out with a new Grizzly head that will be double bevel...if you have problems getting a proper edge on the single bevels.
Good luck...but personally while the Simmons heads are impressive...the price and shape of the blades are more trouble to sharpen and not worth it to me.
If I was not shooting and very happy with the Ribteks and Grizzly heads...I would likely go to the TuffHead for my next head. If I ever run out of my stash of Ribteks...that will be my new double bevel head unless the new Grizzly Double Bevel is all that I think it might be.
Keep em sharp...
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I bough some Cut throat 200grn and they fly great.
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I have to say I'm partial to some good old Zwickey Eskimo, or Eskilite.
Yeah I guess they can curl, but they fly great.
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Welp, I'm sticking to my good old grizzlies...I'm just confident with them and have had great results save this one most recent fluke on the doe I mentioned.
I do think I'll keep the Byron heads for turkeys next spring
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Yup. Go with what makes you confident. Good shooting stems from confidence.
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So then, what is the theory about why the Ferguson BHs fly better than the Simmons, which they obviously copy?
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They are vented and lower profile
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Originally posted by Michael Arnette: no way am I shooting a $34 Broadhead [/QB]
i edited your statement to reflect my opinion.
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Originally posted by Archie:
I have had some problems with getting good broadhead flght in the past, even though I was pretty well-turned. I came up with a theory, and so far it's proven true for me...
The issue is that when the arrow flexes as it comes out of the bow, and since the arrow isn't flying straight until the feathers straighten it out, that wing (broadhead) on the front of the arrow starts catching air and pulls the arrow off in a different direction. It makes sense that if that "wing" is positioned to cut through the air instead of planing against it, that maybe the broadhead can cut through the air and the arrow can straighten out before going off course. So, I took a few arrows and a torch out and shot a few. If the flight wasn't good, I heated the glue, twisted the insert in the shaft about 30°, and tried it again. Eventually I found a configuration that flew straight. I then twisted all my inserts to seat the broadhead at the same angle in relation to the cock feather, and I was good to go. I got great arrow flight out of those arrows. And since everyone has unique ticks and bad habits and arrow flight quirks, it makes sense that vertically-aligned broadheads work for some, horizontal for others, and various angles in-between for others still.
Lately, all my broadheads seem to fly well no matter how they are positioned, so I haven't had to bother with it. I am shooting big Zwickey's out of my 68# recurve this season, and they fly just fine.
Agreed on the broadhead positioning. Shooting Zwickey No Mercy and Grizzly 200s (screw on), I get the best flight when the broadhead is perpendicular to the string. I'm guessing it's because it's cutting the air vs paddling through it, as you describe. Impacts are inconsistent in any other orientation. With my factory-made arrows, the Grizzlies were very picky about fletching orientation as well -- cock vane in gave better flight. Why? Who knows. Just did. But when I fletched up some 5" feathers with more helical, suddenly, it quit being an issue.
Can't say I've had all that much experience on penetration. But a few years ago I took a big doe with my buddy's .243. The shot went high (hard rest) and didn't leave a spot of blood. We found her the next morning only 20 yards in the brush with barely a drop coming out of her mouth. Reason: high lung shot never gave enough time for the blood to fill up her lungs. Her heart stopped long before the chest could fill up. The bullet never exited but completely fragmented inside -- making her lungs into mush. Still, not the slightest blood trail. I'm guessing that blood trails are more a function of shot placement than projectile width. Again, just my limited experience in rifle hunting.