Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: longbowman on December 14, 2016, 10:40:00 AM
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I just finished off another deer season and was pondering things. Probably one of the saddest things in this day and age is what's happened to hunting properties. When I first started bowhunting you hunted your property and any of your neighbors adjoining property and they did the same. It was just the way hunters did things. This year as I was getting out of my car at my farm I couldn't help but notice the "No Trespassing" signs on my final neighbors property.
What happened that suddenly you don't get to hunt unless you pay? I miss the old days and when approached by the local "Hunting Lease" people that have all the other farmers land I just said I believe we need to be neighbors and treat each other that way so my property is open to all my neighbors and anybody else who ask and they responded with "Well we're not your neighbor so stay off".
As much as the good old stick & string takes each of us back to a better time greed still seems to rule the woods.
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Wow,isn't that the truth.It is really lousy when you can't be neighbors with your neighbors.Lease,lease lease,guess its the new age we live in. I think I know my neighbors when it snows 12 inches and I'm plowing them all out,just because we're so called neighbors...Ha,got a love it.
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Had between 5 and 6000 acres to hunt growing up,now cannot set foot on even 1 acre.Sad
Terry
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Yep. I've been reduced to public hunting, and playing by their ridiculous rules. I had to sit this season out. Sad, really sad.
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I'm with you. People see deer as a real money maker. We used to hunt all over. Everyone did. I hunt my 30 and state ground. Happy to have my 30 though.
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Human Population dynamics.
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Think about the value of land in the last 20 years though! Take the last 50 years into account and it's ridiculous, land values have skyrocketed and I think this has a large part in the pay to play situation.
For right now I just won't do it, and it's going to have to get pretty bad before I do, I'll even go to another state if I need to
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All the farms around me are more worried about being sued...they turn down leases cause as I'm told..."good lawyers can get by a piece of paper if you get hurt on my property" Money rules on the propertys who are willing to let you hunt and if someone offers more see ya goodbye. I've been hunting state land now for 16 years now, almost been shot a few times it's a scary place. Truly hope before my kids are old enough to come with me I find a safe place to take them...even if I gotta pay to do it.
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Sad, but true, and now the Republicans want to sell off our federal lands or give them to the states, who aren't financially equipped to manage them, and will in turn sell them off to balance their budgets.
Yep, hunting will be sold out of existence for all but a few. We're a dying breed.
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I started hunting as an adult in 1965. Before that as a teenager. We use to hunt what we called "abandoned farms", farms not longer occupied and abandoned, usually with falling down houses and barns with overgrown fields, and never posted. There were tons of them. No more.
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Kopper hit it on the head, I believe. When one country has 90%+ of the world's lawyers,each looking for money, being nice to your neighbor doesn't look quite as good as it once did.
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We used to let people hunt....until they left gates open, cut a fence,went where they were asked not to go and stole one of my stands.....now we post and enforce it.....simple answer is....not many will respect someone elses land like we used too ....it is sad , but with every one as sue happy as they seem now.....all gates closed and locked..... :nono:
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People here in Texas talk about hogs messing up their pastures,but if you ask them to go and get a hog or two it's out of the question,unless you fork over a little money.
Kopper is right about the lawyers thing. I had been pestering by buddy about talking to his dad to let me use their property for a lease. He finally got back to me and said I could hunt there for free,so if I messed up in anyway we didn't have a contract per say,and they could kick me right off. I haven't done anything to make them mad,and take better care of it than I would my own place. He said they had people leasing from in the past and it was a nightmare. That may be one reason also people are leery of letting people hunt their property.
I hurt my back pretty bad in a Mc Donald's parking lot one time,and it was their fault. They had people contacting me,and I never did anything about it,and will have back problems from time to time because of it. My buddy said that was the main reason that I was allowed on the place to hunt. They have a lot of land and oil,and are paranoid maybe with good reason about being sued.
I think even with all this other being said that it is mainly greed.
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I understand that when you own land you own the only asset that will never be made again...what there is, is all there is and that makes it very valuable. I have literally hundreds of acres open to me to hunt for free if I want to because I asked and proved that I would take care of it so not EVERYBODY is out to get ya but I still miss the days of neighbors being neighbors. My farm is always open for the asking but so far the only people that asked immediately asked where they could drive their 4 wheelers and when I said you are welcome to WALK anywhere and hunt they turned it down like I was a jerk. It's still open to anybody who asks however.
So I guess I'll go home tonight and slap the snowshoes on a go for a walk where I own and continue being grateful for what I have.
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Complex issue, but legal ramifications would limit my allowing trespass if i had land.
Contracts mean nothing. Anyone can sue anyone...then you pay money to prove you weren't liable...only winners are attorneys!
Friend wanted to hunt WY years back...he's a preacher so he contacted churches in the area. Some ranchers came back saying they ONLY let Easterners hunt cause they respected land and closed gates...locals didn't.
We can point fingers but the new age people with self interests seem to be at the crux of it and we've allowed it to happen... Greed, lack of personal accountability, inconsideration...they all have burgeoned in recent years in all areas... not just our beloved hunting...
They can't take our guns, but they sure can take away where we can go to use guns, bows or even fishing rods!
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In my area of Indiana it is directly related to how most "hunters" treat the ground and landowners. It never ceases to amaze me how folks take for granted and take advantage of access to ground...never investing a dollar or a minute of work, then get bent out of shape with a landowner asking them to close a gate or something, or trashing the woods. When I started hunting the main property I'm on near home it was open for the asking, and there were probably a dozen different trucks I'd see over the season..and of course nobody seems to hunt alone - never "me" always "us" hunting, so Lord knows how many people that was.
Now, 18 years later, I'm the only one with permission to hunt this ground. Over the years the landowner and family got sick of what people were doing and kicked them off one after the other. From shooting one of the landowners dogs (yep, true story...and a "bowhunter" no less that the landowner used to let set up a camper in one of the fields), to leaving pee bottles laying on the ground under trees to showing up with groups of people the landowner never met - one of which tried to kick the landowner's 50 year old son off the property, "hunters" can really be jackasses.
The difference - I actually became friends with the landowners over the years, and not to use them for hunting rights, but because they are good folks and a friendship developed. I actually CARE about them, not just show up a week before season to get permission (WOW, NOVEL CONCEPT!).
The only things I went out of my way to do over the years was to comply with all their wishes about where to park etc, posted the land at their request out of my own pocket, and made it VERY clear that what the typical "hunter" was doing to their land and trust made me sicker than it made the landowner.
That said, I know it will eventually change as older members of the family pass away etc. so I bought my own place to hunt. And sorry, but I too post my land and lock the gates to keep off the modern day "hunters".
Times have changed, and so have "hunters" - I frankly cannot blame landowners in general from locking the gates.
Sad, but true.
R
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I have always refused to post my land but had an experience this past fall which makes me wish I would have. I, like you grew up in a time when we shared the wood lots around our homes and helped neighbors in need.
My new neighbors bought 3 acres that butt up to my property on my NW corner. We share a strip of woods that is an excellent deer corridor for deer traveling East to West and visa-versa.
Instead of just hunting his side of the fence within this great corridor, he put up a ladder stand on our shared fence line and opened up a nice shooting lane into my CRP field and Clover food plot by cutting trees ( about 15 cedars and shingle oaks) and trimming overhead branches on my side of the fence. While investigating the damage I found a game camera aimed at a sugar beet and cracked corn pile with an additional ladder stand overlooking the bait and within the corridor.
I chalk it up to stupidity, disrespect and laziness. He was given a ticket for hunting over bait on the 4th day of firearms season for hunting over bait. We did have a short conversation and he knows it's me that turned him in and in his opinion I'm the poor neighbor. Yeah we aren't friends. And that's okay with me. We don't have much in common.
If I had posted my land his list of tickets would have also included trespassing and looking back at this guys attitude when confronted about the baiting and the property damage I wish it would have been posted.
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I could tell you plenty of stories about neighbors and the levels of respect they showed me and other landowners back in the 1970s on up. You would have thought an unposted area of road or farm meant "free-for-all hunting property right here!" It was the continued disrespect for landowners which led Ohio to get tough and enact laws requiring hunters to show written proof of permission to hunt...or potentially face arrest and citation.
Hunters who hunted where they wanted and crossed fences at will. Hunters who drove up and parked 6 or more vehicles on a roadside to gang-drive a piece of land. Neighbors who told other people they could hunt the next guy's place and not worry. We had a neighbor bring a friend on our place without asking, and they shot a deer 125 yards from our house...a deer we were watching as we ate dinner. My wife was beyond upset.
"Good fences make good neighbors"....Robert Frost
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I remember those old days here too. However, I am truly blessed with good neighbors that let me hunt. I was hoping to get permission for a trad gang friend, but they feared being sued. Sad times!
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Yep, since the late '60s we've gone from free-for-the-asking on prime deer/elk property to $25 per hunter in the '70s-'80s to $3500 through an outfitter now. Needless to say, we don't hunt there anymore.
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It is still that way where I hunt and I even added some more area this fall
DDave
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Unless a handle is gotton ahold of on CWD, all the money in deer hunting will tank anyway in the not so far future. Who here is willing to risk eating deer meat that has a higher risk of being infected with CWD? The authorities only will say, that as of right now there is no known risk to humans consuming infected deer, but do not say its no risk. Unless something more concrete is established, and a more aggressive way of control happens, deer hunting is about to take a major change. Its beginning to spreading more rapidly with recent test results here in Kansas. So far, mainly the west half, but only a few short years ago it was only a few Counties. Many of our children or grandchildren may have a hard time even finding deer, let alone a place to hunt them. Scary thought....
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It's been "hunt only your own" in my neck of the woods for a long time, I'm saying at least the past 20 yrs. or so. Just the way it is. Trailing a wounded animal is a different story. But, hunting...no way.
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I guess I wasn't as lucky regarding public land as some. Grew up pretty poor, but at least Pennsylvania had alot of public land. It was farm country, and even in the 70's and early 80's, it was easy to see what happened. The farms got sold and developed, and the small amount of land that was available to hunt went away. Realized at an early age that if you want to essentially guarantee that you have a place to hunt that wasn't public land, that you needed to buy it.
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I think a couple of factors are at work here.
1. Many properties are being gobbled up by groups specifically managing the property to make a profit.
2. Many smaller landowners, largely due to the bad economy, simply need to charge a fee just to help to hang on.
As much as I understand the cold hard facts of the need to watch the costs, I sure do miss the days when you just called a neighbor and asked to hunt. Generally, he just said to be careful and make sure to close gates. Neighborliness just isn't as commonplace as it once was.
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It is NOT greedy to want to hunt your own land and expect others to stay off. If you think just because you hunt and you happen to be near someone else's land and somehow this entitles you to access??? No that is called mooching. If you own land and want to share it go for it. I started hunting in 1970 and was taught first thing to secure permission on private land by asking for the privilege. Paying a fee is nothing more than participating with the landowner to pay taxes.
Traipsing around on other peoples land is bad manners at a minimum.
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Well said Longbowman, and I couldn't agree more.
I have a neighbor that has always allowed me to hunt his property (40+years), but the other hunters he has recently given permission to tosses me off. Its not worth the arguement.lol
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"Sad, but true, and now the Republicans want to sell off our federal lands or give them to the states, who aren't financially equipped to manage them, and will in turn sell them off to balance their budgets."
Wow Orion, liberals never miss an opportunity to take a partisan/political drive by swipe, when the issue is really non political. This issue is the fault of one political party over another?
Sorry, but that is baloney and a pretty shameful post that doesnt belong here imo.
How about all the hunting land that has been sewed up by Tom Brokaw, or Ted Turner? How about all the land around Boulder CO in open space off limits to hunting. Not too many republicans on the CO open space board I can assure you.
Go to the front range and look at the sprawl that has taken so much land away from hunting. Are all the houses and shopping centers owned by republicans?
How many Hollywood liberal democrats have bought huge ranches in Montana, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming and stopped all the hunting there but by a select few?
It cuts both ways in this. It is a social/ societal problem, not a political one. But you already knew that.
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Landowners here in KY have strong protection if they allow hunting for free. As soon as they charge though the liability and goes up.
Here's a link where you can see some of the states with the best protection for landowners which encourages them to allow, non-lease use of their property:
http://huntingheritage.org/legal/featured-statutes
In my experience, lots of landowners simply want to get enough to cover part of their annual property taxes. But, when they do that they except more risk.
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It's not fake news, Brian, it's the truth. I'm hoping our prez elect, because he doesn't see eye-to eye with a lot of Republicans, and because at least one of his own kids hunts, may be able to thwart those efforts. We'll see.
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I've never known those days. Seems more like a fairy tale to me than reality. I don't doubt your experience in the least. It's just so far removed from my own. A buddy of mine is a pastor in a small town out of state. He always seems to know somebody who will let him hunt their blind, tree stand, etc. on private land. The ethic is still there. It's just not one I've experienced myself.
I agree about the "hog problem." Seems as though everybody wants in on the action to have a hog hunting lease as a revenue generator than to actually exterminate them as an invasive species. Even our own fish/wildlife department went from 5 tags for about $8 many years ago to $23 each now. If they truly wanted to take down the invasive species, they would have to make them commercially worthless. If they were suddenly all cost (via crop damage), I'd bet that farmers would wipe them out pretty darned fast. As of now, there's just too much money to be made in keeping them alive and well.
Funny thing is that I can hunt out of state with the same friend for about $800 all-in (airfare & license). I can take up to 6 deer, a few pigs, turkey, etc. Or I can drive 90 minutes from my house, pay $600 for a coin-flip odds at one pig. So far, I'd rather pay the extra $200 and spend some time with an old friend and his family.
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Jerry, with respect, hogwash.
The fake news is that you think your side is not responsible for the original posters perceived problem. You choose to lob political hand grenades instead. Pretty typical of liberal democrats in my opinion.
I would argue your side of the isle has locked up just as much land to hunting as anyone. Maybe more. But somehow you want to blame republicans only. I call bs.
Your side of the isle is home to the anti hunters, the animal rights acitivists, the anti weapon people, peta etc. How many democrats have bought land and closed it to any hunting?
Do you have any stats that show republicans have the market cornered on owning hunting land, leasing etc If so. I would really like to see it. That is the issue the original poster was asking about.
This is a non political issue, but you choose to point fingers, You have a few pointing back at you.
Im sure you are really rooting for Trumps success, wink wink
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I don't have a side of the aisle, Brian. In truth, though, dems aren't advocating for selling federal lands, republicans are. If that happens, the rich will end up with them, on both sides of the aisle. I don't doubt that rich liberals, as you call them, have as much land locked up as rich republicans.
If the federal land are sold or given to the states, or just made available for sale, those same rich liberals and republicans will buy them. Doesn 't make any difference who buys them. It means that little folks like most of us will then no longer have an option when the private lands are closed to us, or priced beyond our means. There will be few federal land to hunt.
BTW, I don't know what side of the aisle you think I'm on. I try to be compassionate toward others, but I'm certainly not an anti-hunter (been hunting all my life and plan to continue to do so), I'm not anti weapons, (I probably have more shotguns, rifles and hand guns than you do, and a concealed carry permit as well) and I certainly don't agree with anything PETA says or does.
Sorry OP. Afraid I contributed to side tracking this one. Just that from my perspective, what we're seeing happening on private land now could very well be facing us on public land in the future.
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Originally posted by Orion:
Sad, but true, and now the Republicans want to sell off our federal lands or give them to the states, who aren't financially equipped to manage them, and will in turn sell them off to balance their budgets.
Yep, hunting will be sold out of existence for all but a few. We're a dying breed.
Hey Orion. I know it's popular to bash a group when we're p!$$ed, but please check this out.
"The lone congressman from Montana is being offered the chance to lead the Department of the Interior Tuesday by President-elect Donald J. Trump, according to multiple media reports.
A retired Navy commander, who commanded SEALs and other special operations forces in Iraq, Republican Rep. Ryan Zinke met with the president-elect Monday.
On Monday’s conference call with reporters, Jason Miller, a spokesman for the Presidential Transition Team, said Zinke was a strong candidate for joining the Trump cabinet.
“Congressman Ryan Zinke from Montana. Congressman Zinke was an early Trump supporter,” Miller said.
“His background includes time in the Montana senate and 22 years as a Navy SEAL. Congressman Zinke is a strong advocate for American energy independence and he supports an all-encompassing energy policy that includes renewables, fossil fuels, and alternative energy,” he said.
Miller added, “Zinke believes we need to find a way to cut through bureaucracy to ensure our nation’s parks, forests, and other public areas are properly maintained and used effectively.”
The man Zinke replaced in the House, Sen. Steven D. Daines (R.-Mont.), Tweeted out his support for the Zinke pick:
Follow
Steve Daines ✔ @SteveDaines
.@RepRyanZinke protected us abroad and in combat and I know he will do the same for our treasured public lands as Secretary of the Interior.
6:27 PM - 13 Dec 2016
49 49 Retweets 119 119 likes
Theresa Pierno, the president and CEO of National Parks Conservation Association said:
For the last 100 years, Americans have visited and explored our national parks, stunning landscapes and rich pieces of our history set aside for future generations. It is up to all of us to protect our national parks, including the President-elect and his new Interior Secretary. Mr. Zinke has expressed support for the Land and Water Conservation Fund, opposes the sale of public lands and has expressed concern over proposed mine development adjacent to Yellowstone. In contrast, Mr. Zinke has advocated for state control of energy development on federal lands, a move that threatens our national parks. Mr. Zinke has also repeatedly voted to block efforts to designate new national parks that would diversify the National Park System.
The League of Conservation Voters, a left-wing lobbying group, gave Zinke a three percent rating on its 2015 scorecard.
Environmentalists might not be pleased with Zinke, but neither has he always voted with conservatives, or even Republicans, since joining the House of Representatives with the class of 2015.
In July, Zinke voted with Democrats to unsuccessfully block a program to transfer federal land to the states.
According to a report in the Bozeman Daily Chronicle:
Zinke’s crossover vote comes as the Montana Democratic Party and his opponent in the November election, Denise Juneau, try to pin the congressman to his party’s support for transferring control of federal lands to the states, which, opponents say, is a step toward privatizing public lands.
The day after the vote, Zinke announced that he had resigned his post as a nominating delegate at the Republican National Convention over the GOP’s pro-transfer platform.
“I’ve made it very clear time that I do not support the sale or transfer of federal lands,” Zinke said in an email via his press secretary Monday. “That’s why I broke with a majority of my colleagues…. Our public lands are public for a reason. I do not support any roundabout ways to get rid of the very federal lands that form our Montana way of life.”
Zinke resigned as a delegate to the Republican National Convention, but he and his Spanish-speaking wife were strong supporters and surrogates for the new president.
When the retired Navy SEAL commander endorsed Trump at a May rally in Billings, Montana, the congressman said everyone has a duty to work to turn the country around by supporting the New York City developer. “We rise and fall on the same tide,” he said, adding:
It is time for us all to do our duty and it is time, Montana, to make America great again.
People ask me if Donald Trump will make a great commander-in-chief–well, I’ll tell you what–we need a commander-in-chief, who will put the interests of the United States ahead of the interests of raising money for the Clinton Foundation and we need a commander-in-chief, that will put our troops first and not abandon them in battle as Hillary Clinton did in Benghazi.
We need a commander-in-chief who will kill and capture our enemies, rather than catch and release them at Guantanamo Bay.
The former All-American lineman for the Oregon Ducks, who graduated with a degree in geology, said that, unlike President Barack Obama, Americans need a commander-in-chief who does not fund the nuclear weapons programs of Iran and treats veterans with respect. “We need a commander-in-chief who will put our veterans at the front of the line, rather than having them die in line waiting for health care.”
Zinke wrote about his experiences as a Navy SEAL in a book released in the last week of November, American Commander: Serving a Country Worth Fighting For and Training the Brave Soldiers Who Lead the Way.
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Guys. Not to side track the OP- and NOT making this political- but everyone should be aware of some dramatic legislation in the pipeline that has the potential of doing the very thing Jerry (Orion) is warning about. There is significant movement to give Fed lands back to the states. It sounds very conservative and small gov't (which is the position many of us in a hunting world probably are) - however, some of this has already occurred and states either sold it to private interests for debt, or the state stopped hunting on it. This is NOT a weird conspiracy thing. It is a reality that is actually being considered. It may actually occur in the next few-20 years. Google guys trying to educate us about this; like Randy Newberg, bet even Clay Hayes is informed about this, Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, etc. The reality of many Federal lands that we have all assumed a freedom to hunt on may be closed in the near future. No joke.
EDIT: Note the post above. There has been a real effort to transfer these lands. Sounds like Zinke broke ranks to keep these lands public for us.
Dan in KS
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This is exactly why I bought my little 120 acre piece 20 something years ago. 2 of the neighbors said I am free to hunt 1 is posted for him but we have an Greene to that if we shoot a deer and it goes on the others property they are free to go get it. Just call first in case one of us are hunting close. That way we don't disturb the other. Plus I still have several other locations I can hunt. All total I have over a thousand acres to hunt. Proud to say I am a country boy and some things still done on a handshake and your "word"
My neighbor to the south bales about 20 acres of hay on me. I let him have it for free. In turn he limes and fertilizes my food plots. Win win
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KsDan, Jerry different debate, different thread in respect for the original poster.
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It's probably as bad here in Texas, or worse than most other places. Very little public land and leases are getting ridiculous. A cheap lease here is $1,000 per year. And you make people mad if you kill a legal deer and it doesn't measure up to their expectations. The lease I'm on is pretty strictly managed and I follow the rules of course even though I don't always agree. I love the place and have hunted there literally all my life, so I'll stick with it. But I have another little piece of private property I hunt for free, and I'm the only one allowed to hunt it. I enjoy my time there more because I know I can shoot any legal deer and not make everybody upset!! I tuck back every extra dollar I can so hopefully one day I can buy my own little piece of property.
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I made friends with farmers 30 years ago, just to be a friend. When hunting came along for me, I was welcomed, and have taken venison and firewood off his land for three decades. I helped drive him to and from his tractor or combine, always picked up after myself and slob hunters. After he passed, his daughters continued the kindness, and I in turn take a stick of sausage to their home each Christmas.
An eastern outfit, Base Camp, has been advertising a lot around here, and bringing the Lease mentality to Indiana. Money talks, and LOUD. I lost the privilege of fishing one of the best waters in west-central Indiana, but the land owners had more money to make ends meet. The only constant is change...
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Bigriver- I am probably not in the "know" about all discussions. Just reading through and noticed Orion's statement about land transfer. MANY on TG- may not be aware that this is actually happening. And for many of us who are more conservative- it seems awkward as it actually has been promoted mostly by modern conservatives who want the rights to reside in the states. I too am one who wants rights left to the states- at the same time the Fed land system was a tremendous development in our history from which we as hunters really did benefit. And as stated- it is not a joke that we may lose access to these Fed lands. Check into it. This legislation is real and happening as we speak. I am encouraged to hear about Zinke.
Dan in KS
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One of the best (only?) things you can do is write your Congressman and your Senator about public lands staying in federal hands. Having said that, if I was sure the state would not sell the lands, I'd be more for state ownership than federal (sorry). I spent nearly 30 years in state agency wildlife management (IN, KS, MO, and KY). Public lands were PRECIOUS and rare in three of those states (not so much MO) and we would do anything to obtain more and keep it for hunters.
I am concerned about this, especially for the West where I like to visit my (and your) lands from time to time for a 7-10 days.
Back to the thread:
I've hunted private land most of my life until just about 6 years ago when a local fellow was leasing up land to outfit hunts. My landowner wouldn't have kicked me and my son off but I could tell he wanted a bit of "help". So I offered to pay annual property taxes ($1,500 year - 135 acres). I wrote a lease (web search) that at least addressed liability and my accepting of same. I found a way to buy the land this past summer.
I've always found it pretty easy to get private permission EXCEPT in Kansas. In IN, MO, and KY it was to my advantage that I was a biologist. It was not in Kansas. One summer I used plat maps and several days of driving an hour out from Newton to knock on doors. Met a bunch of very nice landowners. Some even seemed tickled (??) that I was knocking on doors) I was turned down by every single landowner when I asked permission to bow hunt deer. Most already had their land leased, some only for birds but still would allow no deer hunting because their lessee wanted exclusivity.
I remember one ranch had a pile of shed antlers laying right out in the open next to the house. Teasing?
I've been kicked off of two private tracts, one in Indiana and one in Kentucky. Both times I objected to another's hunter violation of game laws. In one case the hunter was cited (Indiana around Potato Creek SP) and in KY I just had to "remind" another hunter of the proper harvest reporting requirements. Neither landowner appreciated my input. But, I could not look the other way.
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Keeping to the original focus of this thread...
I suppose easy access to neighboring lands was once a given. So many factors...so many years...have combined to change rural perspectives. A book wouldn't cover every thing that has changed the issue of easy access to private land for hunting. For some landowners it's a privacy issue. Could be about legal issues. Financial opportunity is a big one. More hunters seem to want exclusive rights to a property...wasn't that way 40 years ago. I also think part of it is the changing demographic of rural landowners. The easygoing guy on the 1960 Allis Chalmers tractor is mostly dead and replaced by younger generations with different attitudes and perspectives. The guard has changed. Many rural landowners are not farmers...just people who want out of town. The net effect is not a land or access-sharing ideology. It's more of a 'my land is my home' perspective, and the truth is most people don't have an open-door policy to their home...or their land.
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There's really nothing to debate here. Just a muse on my part. Europe went through this hundreds of years ago and now only those with money can hunt. I hate that it may be this way in my own state but it's getting closer every year. As a pastor I can't help but think of the neighbor-loving-neighbor aspect of the whole thing and yes...those are rose colored glasses I have on and will keep on as long as I can. Good hunting all!
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I expect that this, as is the case with a lot of similar problems in the world, has a lot to do with population increase. The population of the US has increased by about 100 million in my lifetime. You can't increase the population of a country by 50% in one lifetime without major impacts. I expect that this problem will solve itself one day, probably not in a way to our liking.
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I am not sure if I should start by saying fortunately or unfortunately regardless I agree with almost everyone's post in this thread. I however can simplify this subject matter down to one word that has put hunting and our traditional values in this death spiral. MONEY !! The outdoor networks and social media have amplified the problems. Portraying hunters consistently and quickly harvesting 150" plus whitetails. Selling products and the next magic gadget. I actually pay for these channels on a monthly basis and I do not mean to paint with a wide brush as there are several shows televised that I like. They "keep it real" for example Fresh Tracks with Randy Newberg. He hunts public ground, teaches conservation, dedication and work ethic. There are a few shows like this that I enjoy but the overall message has digressed into farming deer and harvesting the biggest buck in the area. The hunting public have been inundated by this message. I fell into this trap. I have been bowhunting for 40 years. I started of trad, switched to compound and found myself on a quest for Booners or Bust. What I found was dissatisfaction, harvesting many deer and feeling disappointed because they were not as big as I wanted or not as big as somebody elses. 15 years ago I almost quit bowhunting then I remembered how much fun I used to have hunting trad. I dusted off the old equipment and have never looked back. I am like most of you in that I grew up in Southern Illinois and now live in Indiana I used to have countless acres of private property in both states to hunt but unfortunately most have been leased up. I still bow hunt both Illinois and Indiana but I have very little private property to hunt on but I am still enjoying myself out there with my trad equipment. I may meet my maker with out ever harvesting a Booner but I have made a lot of friends through the years and live for the friendships I have made with my trad friends. I am hunting a little private ground and a lot of public ground still managing to harvest a doe and a decent buck in most years and I am having a ball not putting a lot of pressure on myself and having a blast pursuing what has become a rich man's game. I still do things the old fashion way, I knock on doors, ask permission, offer to work in fact Saturday I am delivering a few Christmas hams and thanking the farmers for allowing me the privilege to sit a few days in their respective wood lots. There is still a lot of farmers out there that respect people who take the time to talk to them and ask permission and become friends. People just need to shut the tv off, put the electronics down, slow down and breathe and go shake some hands. Even if you get told no you have met a new person and stayed true to our old fashion roots of looking a man in the eye and having a sincere conversation with him. We can't give up. There was a thread I saw earlier about a member teaching his neighbor boy how to shoot. If we do not reach back and not only get the next generation shooting but teach them the very ethics of respecting people, property and communication skills then our lifestyle and the very fabric we so dearly love will be gone as we pass on.
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Originally posted by McDave:
I expect that this, as is the case with a lot of similar problems in the world, has a lot to do with population increase. The population of the US has increased by about 100 million in my lifetime. You can't increase the population of a country by 50% in one lifetime without major impacts. I expect that this problem will solve itself one day, probably not in a way to our liking.
Yep. We humans lived in perfect balance with nature for 250k years. There were maybe 500k humans on the entire earth for most of that time. Suddenly, in the last couple thousand, we've exploded to 7 billion (a 14,000-fold increase) and we're busy blaming lobbyists and trusting that politicians can fix it. Nature always prevails. And the last thing we need is a politician trying to fix it.
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Well, it's been about 20 years since I had the chance to deer hunt private land...I have had a few folks let me squirrel hunt but once deer season opens, I'm locked out.
All the land owners (with huntable land) that I know or have contacted around here either hunt deer themselves, have family who hunts or they lease.
The local state places that I've hunted just aren't worth bothering with. I could elaborate but I'll save that.
I actually killed a buck this year but that was in my 4 acre back yard. I actually have about 2 acres that I let grow up. I have a tripod out there. I sit and something either shows up or it doesn't. Usually it doesn't.
I used to get a lot of deer traffic, which is why I took up deer hunting again after a long lay-off (because I didn't have anyplace to hunt) but then the cutting started. All the cover around me has been cut down so I'm like a little island out in the middle of nowhere. The deer traffic is a tiny fraction of what it used to be.
I remember when my father quit hunting more than thirty years ago with the complaint that there wasn't anyplace left to hunt.
What he meant, of course, was no place close to home.
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So ...hunting land. I love to hunt the Indiana National Forest, although, finding deer there can be hit and miss. Unfortunately, it's pretty far away and I just can't seem to be able to spend enough time there to hunt effectively.
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This year a guy I work with told me I could hunt his farm. WOW!
By by the time we talked about it, he was farming every night (he leases his land but works for another farmer part time during the season).
Anyway, he didn't have time to show me around.
Once he finally had time to take me home with him after work...I was sick one weekend, had to be out of town another weekend...then they were picking beans so I was told I couldn't hunt and then gun season opened. During the first couple of weeks of gun season his nephew has the place.
I did manage one walk out there. I say walk because it was mostly a scouting trip. The property is basically a thin strip of trees (very thin in most places) along a creek bordering the cop fields, which were beans this year.
At the far end is a little wooded corner, of which, about two acres is his. I counted 4 tree stands in there.
Deer hunting land? I haven't really had any since the 80's when I first took up archery and deer hunting because I started seeing deer on the little farm I used to rabbit and dove hunt.
I can't even imagine the sort of hunting that I read about on the forums because I've never actually seen such a thing.
If hunting dies it will be because the average person, who might otherwise be interested, just doesn't have anyplace worth hunting.
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I do not think that one can dispute that the advent of the compound bow, more than any other factor, contributed to
the changes in hunting and land access that everyone posts and laments about.
This started in the late 70s and early 80s as tens of thousands of new hunters, again as a result of the advent of the compound bow, put demands on property use.
Back in the days of "traditional" archery, it was easy to get access to land to hunt.
Crossbows, inline muzzleloaders, etc. all contribute to the influx of hunters and an increase on demand for land, but once again, the compound bow is clearly the technology that tipped the balance to what we see it is today. And the compound bow turned deer hunting into big business.
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For sure, the number of people wanting hunt has gone up in relation the the amount of land available...more demand for less land.
Equipment may have something to do with it but I saw the same thin growing hunting with my father and we were small game gun hunters. The demand for the available hunting land still increased.
Another thing to consider is the commercialism and all the hunting/fishing TV shows. At one time, hunting was something that country folks did for fun or just to get meat. Now it's more of a sport like golf...for city folks, wealthy folks or whatever.
Why should a neighbor let me hunt for free (or what I can afford) when the nice buck stomping around their property is worth THOUSANDS of dollars?
It really has become a "sport".
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I have been paying close attention to this thread before adding my 2 cents into the hat.
Staying away from the political side of this thread but add my perspective as a land owner. I moved here to southern Iowa two years ago from Pennsylvania. Buying a old farmhouse six miles back on a gravel road with 12 acres, then 118 more additional acres of adjoining property about a year after ago. I moved here because my love for bowhunting whitetails.
This year I agreed to let a few people gun hunt it because they have had permission from the previous owner to hunt it the last few years. But I would be the only one bowhunting it. I only hunt with a recurve.
Okay, I told them some concerns and rules, one, absolutely no shooting towards my house. Two absolutely no driving on the winter wheat or fields. Four wheelers only and on the edges. Three, No littering. Four, No driving deer. That was basically it. And I did not want a dime.
Opening day of firearm season comes. About 11 o'clock my wife calls me to the kitchen window to see a F250 of one of the hunters laying on its frame stuck right there in the middle of the winter wheat. I had to get my tractor to pull him out. His excuse was that he forgot. I had to fix the enormous ruts he left because if not, it would have caused drainage problems come spring. Then number two, I see two does break cover along the creek bottom as i was splitting wood. Kicked up by a hunter driving deer. The posted hunter opened up and the only thing he hit was my chicken coupe that's a mere 25 yards from my house!! When I confronted him and the other guy, they both denied it! Sent them down the road and after finding several empty pop cans. Next day, a neighbors 17 year old boy stopped and asked if he could hunt my upper CRP. I said sure Wyatt, go ahead and be safe. A few hours later I hear 2 shots coming from my upper CRP. So I took my four wheeler up to where Wyatt was to only have one of the hunters that I ran off the day before accusing Wyatt of trespassing!! That he had exclusive hunting rights to this land. I told the guy that he needs to leave my property immediately or be locked up!! Wyatt took a respectable buck. And people wonder why land owners act the way we do? I am not accusing anyone here but just sharing my very own experience as a landowner.
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Also, landowners can be held liable for anyone hurt on their land in a lot of states as well.
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Funny how some people fall hook line and sinker for what the liberal media spouts out.
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Zwickey-Fever
Avatar Image I feel your pain! I'd hate to be a landowner! That's exactly what a normal hunter has to face to get permission. I totally feel your pain! Sad but reality of life now a days. Wish I had a better answer! Just hope that some how you meet up with hunters who feel and hunt the same way you expect them to act!
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A neighboring farmer was sued because a individual got hurt climbing a stand and now he is forced to have the people who hunt his land sign a waiver. When did lawyers become a big factor in the way we hunt??
Also, the same individuals who I ran off was supposed to come down and help me with some minor things, mend some fences and help cut firewood. Not a bad price for hunting a farm in southern Iowa. All agreed but not one showed until second week of November to hang trail cameras. Oh well, lesson learned.
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I own 150acres, my 2 neighbors have 250 and 200acres each. We don't lease any of our land, we have had several offers but never felt the desire to lease. In the past we allowed non family members to hunt our properties, however, after a few years of tolerating the total disrespect for our properties we no longer allow others to hunt our lands. I agree with the others about the liability issues but I also believe many people don't allow hunting on their properties because of the lack of respect some hunters have for the property they hunt on. I know not all hunters are disrespectful but it only takes a few bad apples to put a bad taste in your mouth about allowing others to hunt on your property.
Rodney
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Good points on this thread on what is a tough subject. I had access to private land many years ago and then lost it and hunted only public for almost 10 years. Now I have access to some private land again. The leasing thing is complicated for sure. Lots of reasons for a landowner to lease his land...income is probably the first. Unfortunately for the landowners, people who pay money to hunt will sometimes take liberties with the land because they feel they can as a paying customer. This leads to a landowner no longer allowing anyone to hunt the land which is bad for all of the sport.
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I've seen hunters and fishermen abuse property but in recent years I see it more and more on public land like the National Forest.
Just this season my wife and I stopped to check out one of the spots we camp in sometimes. Somebody had cut down a ton of young beech trees to fashion a lean-to. We see a lot more tree cutting. This is just one recent example.
We sometimes camp just off the road. There are no "official" camp sites but folks tend to use and re-use the places where there is a good spot to pull off.
The garbage we pick up is unbelievable.
I hate not having a place to hunt but, if I were a land owner, I'd be real hesitant to let anybody on my land.
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30 years ago I knew of a farm that had an old flooded stone quarry...the best bass fishing that I've ever seen.
The owner let folks fish. He left an access road open and a fairly large area to park.
It wasn't long before somebody shot up a bunch of beer bottles and left all the busted glass and boxes all over the place. Somebody we 4-wheeling all through the standing crops.
Needless to say the owner fenced the place off and posted it. How can you blame him?
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Something I should add about the National Forest where we go just south of Bloomington, Indiana.
We used to go there a lot when I was self employed and could schedule trips during the week (Mon.-Fri.)
We've run into some real nuts on the weekends. My wife is usually with me. She carries a gun and has the dog but I still don't like leaving her in camp while I hunt. Not with those people around.
If I went alone, I wouldn't want to leave my camp unattended.
Now that I work Mon. through Fri. I mostly just don't go.
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Where I hunt in Florida land is $12,000-30,000
an acre! It's absurd. I've established some good relationships with landowners over the years but land changes hands and other factors will affect that.
I'm saving for land elsewhere for when I retire, young.
When I taught school in rural Iowa, I had too many farms to hunt and at no charge. The only stipulation was that I HAD to shoot deer. I miss that.
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Yup, Back in the 60's when I started this I hunted roughly 2000 acres of adjoining land and did so ALONE. Today I share 200 with my nephew and the surrounding land is full of lessees.
As far as I have scene, I am the only one bow hunting with a BOW.
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In the 60's when I started hunting it was small game (mostly shotgun) hunting with my father, uncle and cousin.
My father and uncle would pick a direction/area. We would drive until we found a place that looked like it would hold bunnies and/or birds and knock on the door.
Not everybody said yes but many (maybe most) did.
As I said though, I still have a MUCH easier time finding a place to squirrel hunt than deer hunt. I've got a neighbor who own a GREAT patch of squirrel woods. He lets me hunt until deer season opens. Actually I usually stop well before deer season opens so they don't blame me if their hunting isn't so good.
The land owners I'm talking about will let me use the property but they aren't going to share the deer. LOL
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Sorry, I feel like I'm taking over the thread but it's a subject that almost always on my mind.
A couple of years ago I decided, once again, to just give up deer hunting. Keep in mind my deer hunting usually involves a lot of practice shooting, getting gear together and then hunting for a place to hunt...and sitting in the back yard never seeing deer.
Of course I get on the net and read all about the great hunting and it all gets pretty depressing. LOL you know how some people get depressed during the holidays? That's me during the deer season.
Anyway, I decided to give it up and focus a little more on fishing. I've got a lot of pretty decent fishing opportunities around here and I don't have to beg.
Last year I never took my bow into the woods. I fished late into the fall/early winter and did really well.
This year I somehow got the hunting bug in a big way but I still don't have anyplace to hunt...although I did luck out and actually get one on my couple of acres.
Funny, that was about a month ago and I haven't seen a deer here since.
Sorry for the rambling/whining.
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Read an article last night by Ted Kerasote discussing how we hunters are, most often, our own worst enemies. The article is in David Petersen's book, BLOODSPORT, which I am enjoying... sort of... Very somber. I have met VERY few people over the years who I would enjoy hunting with. Our values are just too different. And I do my best to avoid other hunters when I'm out. I suspect many landowners feel the same.
By the way, maybe it's a CA thing, but I have been told that although you CAN sue a landowner for damages if you're injured on his/her property, the courts will not award anything unless there is obvious negligence. Basically, in a legal sense, the hunter assumes all the risk if (and this is key) it is NOT a commercial lease. So if the access is free, the hunter bears most of the risk. But if you pay for access, then the landowner assumes some risk. I think this has a negligible effect on public access to private property but it certainly keeps frivolous lawsuits to a minimum. Consult your trusted attorney to verify -- I'm not an attorney.
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I've never had access to much private land for free. Killed most of my deer on badly over hunted public land. This year I killed my buck on 10 acres of timber that 3 other people hunt and we still have to pay for it. I got in on a lease in a better area but I can only get there for a week or so during my vacation. So I adjust my expectations when hunting the public land near home (most of the time) and I go enjoy better hunting during my vacation. I've got access to 2 other private land areas but the amount of timber between the 2 combined is less than 5 acres. It's way past supply and demand. I don't foresee it getting any better and with the dwindling deer numbers in many areas it's going to really "separate the men from the boys." As it is now I don't see a single deer on 75 percent of my hunts. But it's been that way where I live for a long time now so I'm used to it. I hate to say this but overall I don't think the future of Bowhunting is all that bright. At least not for the average guy. It'll be here in our lifetimes but the only long-term solution to having a place to hunt for yourself, your children and your grandchildren is to buy a large enough piece of land to facilitate that. Of course not everyone can do that.
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Regarding liability...It's not exactly the same thing but I was a scuba diving instructor for a long time.
I did carry insurance but it was cheap. I was required o have clients read and sign waivers which, as I understand it, do hold up in court.
I'm not a lawyer but legal risk management was part of the whole thing so this comes from the training that I received...
There's no iron clad protection from liability for "damages directly resultant" from a failure to provide a "duty of care".
The key phrases are in quotation marks. The relevant questions in a law suit are Is there a duty of care? and are there damages caused by a failure to provide that duty of care.
What "duty of care" is a hunter reasonably expecting from a landowner?
Here is a big problem. In the case of a suit, you may win. But it could still cost you so much that you lose. It generally cost a LOT of money to be in court.
My state (and maybe most others?) have laws on the books that are meant to protect land owners who permit their land to be used for recreational purposes.
I don't know how much protection they really offer but the intent of those laws are to encourage land owners to let folks hunt and fish on their lands.
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Another key aspect is the idea that the duty of care provider is judged in relation to the "reasonably prudent person"...or reasonably prudent scuba instructor or reasonably prudent land owner.
In theory, you are not legally expected or required to foresee and prevent anything and everything.
If a hunter takes a swan dive out of his own tree stand that he placed in your tree, his injuries/damages are NOT a result of your failure to provide the duty of care of a reasonably prudent land owner.
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I too had thousands of acers to hunt as a kid and can't step foot on them now...
Greed has taken over the hunting heitage...
Said this years ago and will stand by it to this day, "CANCEROUS LEASES will be the DEMISE of hunting as we've known it"...
Personally have never lease and will go to my grave knowing I never did so...
Kills me when I read here on this site and others SHOPPING for or selling a lease...
People won't stand together to fight it and money and greed will prevail for the wealthy... Get used to European style hunting in the future...
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mgf...
I follow your thinking on this. But as a landowner I can assure you many landowners do not feel protected by those laws; nor do those laws prevent an individual from hiring a hungry lawyer and filing a lawsuit. Since the state doesn't send it's own hungry lawyer out to defend the landowner, he's left to deal with whatever cost and hassle arises. This wasn't too great of a risk many years ago, but now? Turn on your television and you'll be hard-pressed not to see 3 or 4 ads every few hours from attorneys pandering to people. "Have you been injured due to the carelessness of another person? Have you lost your job or incurred serious medical expenses? You may be entitled to compensation! Our team of experienced...."
It's ridiculous but we have become so litigious that it's easier for people to say "NO" and just eliminate the risk...whether it exists or not.
Some guy falls out of a tree and on the way down he knows the landowner isn't at fault. He dies. The landowner knows he didn't cause it. The dead hunter's wife knows it was only an accident. But she's facing a very uncertain future and is advised to file suit. "The landowner's insurance company will pay, even if they don't have to. They'll want to settle this and move on. Litigation and trials are expensive. You're practically guaranteed some amount of money, and you're not hurting the landowner at all".
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Michael,
land values are relative...when it only cost 150 bucks an acre I only made 300 bucks a week....it's still the same thing....
That's not the issue.....there was 150 million people here when I started hunting....there's 320 million here now.....
and there are a LOT more axx-xxles
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Guess Im different. I have hunted lousy public land and marginal private land for almost 40 years. I came close to giving up deer hunting here, then I fell into a lease with a few friends.
The owner has a hard time paying his taxes on the land, which has been in his family for decades. He is a poor boy, just like me. Its the only way he can keep the place in his family. Works out well for all of us. I bet there are a hole lot of people in the same situation.
I have to scrape up the money and give up a few things to pay the fee, but it is so worth it, for me.Guess that makes me greedy. It could be said there are too many free loaders that want land to hunt for free. It cuts both ways.
The guy should be able to do with his land as he sees fit. If he didnt get the lease money, the property would probably end up a subdivision, who does that help? Certainly not any hunters.
It is not as cut and dry as people think, that is what makes it such a difficult issue.
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Okay, here is another point that I failed to mention in my earlier post. My wife's grandfather owns a small farm in Hancock County Illinois, 280 acres. A few years back he was approached by a outfitter to lease his land. He took the outfitter up on the offer but said that he did not want to come out his house and see a hunter in blaze orange, not leave any gates open and respect his land. Come hunting season he starts missing cows immediately because of two gates left open. He had to round up his cows twice. Then comes the Illinois firearm season and there up in a tree about 125 yards away was a hunter in blaze orange. He called the outfitter up and told him to get the guy out of there and do not hang anymore stands that close to his home. Then one day he took a ride to the back end of his property to where he found huge ruts left by for wheeler or UTV. Needless to say that he had enough.
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Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
Michael,
land values are relative...when it only cost 150 bucks an acre I only made 300 bucks a week....it's still the same thing....
That's not the issue.....there was 150 million people here when I started hunting....there's 320 million here now.....
and there are a LOT more axx-xxles
I don't think you find land around for much under 3,000/acre and some is much more. I sure don't make twice that in a week.
The cost of everything has gone up but I earn less than I did 20 years ago.
My wife and I were looking at a 16 acre piece this past summer. They were asking $45,000.
I might have been able to buy it but that's a lot of money to spend for a small piece to hunt.
To try to build and live on it, I'd be jumping into $100,000 in debt.
I'm 57 years old, my earnings are dropping like a rock and I currently live in a home that I've paid off.
Assuming a bank would even go along it just seemed like too much to take on at my age and current station in life.
In many areas of the country hunting is really becoming a game for the wealthy...well wealthier than me anyway.
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It is complicated. Most here tout the free enterprise system and that is what this is. The landowner has every right to use any legal means to make some money, pay his taxes, pay his liability insurance, and feed his family. Most support this until it impacts their lifestyle. The landowner does not owe anyone a free place to hunt.
Yes hunting has changed a lot in the last 75 years but it changed a lot in the 75 years before that. It will keep changing, that seems a given.
We as hunters will have to adapt and evolve or eventually society will stop it all.
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I'm all in favor of free enterprise and a land owners should have the right to use their land as they see fit.
That doesn't change the fact that society changes over time and not always for the better.
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A couple of years ago I went shopping for a lease. I don't remember the exact numbers but what I found was around $2500 for a farm that had a pretty small woodlot.
With some planning I could come up with $2500. After thinking long and hard I decided that it was more than a couple of deer (if that little wood lot is a good one) was worth to me. Especially for that kind of hunting...no room to move to go after the deer...just put up a stand or two, sit and hope for the best.
I know it isn't the same everywhere in the country. I live "out in the country" but I'm not far from a bunch of big cities...Chicago, Indy etc. There is a lot of money chasing a few deer.
I bought a new boat motor instead.
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Originally posted by mgf:
...no room to move to go after the deer...just put up a stand or two, sit and hope for the best.
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Somewhat thankfully, I hunt wilderness areas for just that reason. I've hunted small plots of private land before & it just doesn't feel right to me. 100 acres just isn't enough room to roam. Having constrictive boundaries and audible sounds of civilization kind of robs the wildness out of the experience for me. Feels more like farming than hunting.
In my younger days, a buddy and I trespassed on a 30,000+ acre working cattle ranch. That wasn't too bad -- plenty of room there. But upon spotting the cowboys on horseback heading our direction, we suddenly became more like prey than predators. We managed to stay out of sight & I don't think they were aware of us at all. Good stuff for stories now but not something I'm willing to try again anytime soon. At least in the wilderness areas, I can roam without really having to worry about my own neck.
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I really don't get all this "there is nowhere to hunt" mentality. When I first started hunting in the 1970's, there were very few deer to hunt in many states. If you wanted to hunt bad enough you got in your car and drove hours to where there were deer that could be hunted. Not very many are willing to do that today. If the hunting stinks where you live, look elsewhere!
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Originally posted by JohnV:
I really don't get all this "there is nowhere to hunt" mentality. When I first started hunting in the 1970's, there were very few deer to hunt in many states. If you wanted to hunt bad enough you got in your car and drove hours to where there were deer that could be hunted. Not very many are willing to do that today. If the hunting stinks where you live, look elsewhere!
That sounds great but...you need to money and the time off work. That's what a lot of us don't have these days.
I'll go a step to help make your point a little. I have national forest 3 1/2 hours driving time for my home.
In theory, I could drive the 3 1/2 hours Friday night after work. Hunt Saturday, Sunday morning and then drive back to be at work by 5:30 AM on Monday.
Does that sort of thing sound like any fun at all? It really doesn't to me. Oh, I might be up for a weekend or two of that in a season but that's not hardly worth the cost of the tag.
The other problem with it is that I can't be there enough to have any recent scouting on which to base a hunt.
You walk into those big woods cold and your chances of getting in bow range of a deer are just about zero. There's an awful lot of woods where there aren't any deer. I've walked my legs off in those hills just to come up with a day-old pile of poop. LOL
It would be a great place to hunt if it were closer and/or I could spend more time there.
"Just drive"...you make it sound easy. LOL
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But that is exactly what many did in the 70s and 80s. Depends how much you want to go.
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Anyway, that's why I never say that that I don't have any place to hunt. I say that I don't have any place that's worth hunting.
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ChuckC is right about that. My part of Ohio was whitetail central back in the 1970s, while the rest of the state was trying to find a deer track. Hunters flocked here from hours away so they could hunt.
I'm not saying everyone wants to do that or has the means and energy. I have a friend who drives almost 5 hours every single weekend (with a few exceptions) to come from Michigan and hunt here. He does it because he has a great location and it holds plenty of fine deer. He's probably made 10 or 12 trips down here and spent hundreds of hours hunting this year.
I'm not sure I would do it, mainly because I'm not that into deer these days. There was a time when I got up at 3:30am and hit the road to drive an hour...then walk 30 minutes...then climb to my stand and wait 30 minutes for shooting light. I did it day after day after day...and I killed deer like clockwork.
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Originally posted by ChuckC:
But that is exactly what many did in the 70s and 80s. Depends how much you want to go.
In the 80's I lived in the Chicago suburbs and I had quit a few places to hunt.
But, yes, it's all in how much you want it. What I described isn't any fun for me so what is there about it to want?
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Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
ChuckC is right about that. My part of Ohio was whitetail central back in the 1970s, while the rest of the state was trying to find a deer track. Hunters flocked here from hours away so they could hunt.
I'm not saying everyone wants to do that or has the means and energy. I have a friend who drives almost 5 hours every single weekend (with a few exceptions) to come from Michigan and hunt here. He does it because he has a great location and it holds plenty of fine deer. He's probably made 10 or 12 trips down here and spent hundreds of hours hunting this year.
I'm not sure I would do it, mainly because I'm not that into deer these days. There was a time when I got up at 3:30am and hit the road to drive an hour...then walk 30 minutes...then climb to my stand and wait 30 minutes for shooting light. I did it day after day after day...and I killed deer like clockwork.
Key phrase there "Means and energy". Both my means and energy seem to just keep diminishing.
I guess I'm still "into deer" some but it has to be put in perspective with lots of other things.
I'm really not so into deer that I'll spend lots of money and hard time when there's little chance of success. That's not hunting. It's paying and working for nothing.
Let the state keep their tags.
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Well I for one think you're perfectly normal. Lots of us are only willing to expend so much time, money and energy on hunting. Deer are often local animals and hunted as is convenient. When it becomes inconvenient, interest declines. I know a number of really serious (and good) bowhunters who only hunt deer occasionally and aren't motivated to pursue them with any degree of serious effort.
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Yes, everything is relative.
I remember my dad saying to me many years ago that he was sorry he got me started hunting.
Now I've got a 31 year old son who I got started hunting and he's having an even rougher time than I did.
I'm not sorry I introduced him to the outdoors but...
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I'll throw in my 2 cents. I've experienced some of what most of you guys have described. This year i lost the privilege of hunting literally hundreds of acres that i grew up hunting with my dad, and that my dad grew up hunting with his dad. Dozens of memories and nostalgia gone due to one person's take on his families land. It's been tough so tough on my dad that he has all but lost his interest in hunting at least this year. It sucks losing land to hunt but it's not my land to decide on. I decided i was NOT going to let this ruin my bow season.I love bowhunting too much to quit. So i looked for neighboring properties on plat maps, found phone numbers and went door knocking. Most said no but some said sure. And although i didn't acquire access to much land i acquired access to some close to home and close to areas that held big deer. Probably less than 50 acres total. It's not much but it's a start. I had a blast this year an missed two does so far. I guess my point is don't let things discourage you. If you love to hunt you'll find a way to make it work for you. It's definitely hard to ask for permission but you never know. It never hurts to try. And as most said that's the only option these days. If you're not comfortable doing that then hunt public, if that's not good enough stick to 3d archery.
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My point was not that it isn't expensive...it's always been expensive in relative terms.
The difference is "the aXXXXXXole factor: It used to be that when you were given permission to hunt a place- you respected it, you respected the landowner, you respected the game. You went to see the landowner when it WASN'T deer season.
For every one of us that still do that, there's now FIFTY axxxxxxoles who don't ask permission, or throw out trash, or shoot things they aren't supposed to, or steal tree stands, or hunt without licenses, or take over the limit....landowners get tired of the BS.
I had a piece of ground for 11 years 1996-2007...until it was sold by the owner - it was THE FINEST piece of ground in a county that has been archery only for 25 years....had B&C deer on it...and all I had to do to get it was go to the courthouse, write a letter and talk on the phone.
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I contacted by a guy off of the internet as to a local lease to bowhunt,,I could not believe my ears when he said he was expecting to have 30..Hunter's on 123acres. THIRTY!!!!!! ..GREED at its finest.... unbelievable..
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I can be as political as anybody on this site, but I am not sure I feel that this discussion really needs to be politicized to figure out what is going on.
People lease out their land for hunting based on what people will pay. Likewise, they sell it based on this same thing. It is their land, and they would be stupid to sell it for less, so it is hard to blame them for taking what they can get.
As for the Federal government giving land back to the states, many will say they had no right to take it in the first place. I am in that group. Now, the thing to do is to put pressure on the state to preserve it for public use instead of selling it off. This is a state level political issue that will require a lot of local input.
I readily understand the pain of increasing costs and lessened opportunities. Some years ago, I bought a small 65 acre property that cost in excess of $200,000. That was painful. In my area, there still is a lot of public access land, though. I really don't think it is as over hunted as it used to be, as fewer people are hunting, particularly in archery season (I think).
I may be all wrong, but I am certain the fault is not at the feet of individuals who sell their property on the open market.
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I see your from pa. And I have not read through this post. But I'll tell ya what I think about why people posted there property in Pennsylvania...
Plain and simple. Low deer numbers. Don't come on my ground and shoot our deer. Not many to go around and guys don't like to share there deer. Especially now a days in Pennsylvania. It's a touchy subject around here anymore.
There are also allot of idiots hunting and they cause landowners problems.
Heck I can't even get permission to trap them coyotes off people property. They usually don't want you on there at all... or someone else is already on there already. Too many hunters in pa. Thankfully our state has lots of public lands.
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This has been amazing to watch this thread roll on from my original "Just thinking" muse. While I'm still sad at the way things are now days compared to when I started hunting in the mid 60's I understand most of the why's. Like I mentioned, I'm a pastor and my churches are full of good, hard working farmers that have tons of acres. I have permission to hunt all of them but every scenario brought up here about property misuse has been seen by them at some time.
I also still believe that most people are kind and loving at heart and if you show them that in return then you will be counted as a friend by them and a neighbor and you will most likely have places to hunt.
I guess if I could give a Christmas gift to everybody here it would be a good place to hunt and good neighbors to share it with.