Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: valleysniper on April 02, 2017, 08:29:00 PM
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After my posted question of average shot distance for whitetails, I am wondering if Fast flight is really needed. Seems like most shots are 12-15 yds average. Is the xtra speed really needed ?
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No.
I use FF on some of my bows because they feel and shoot better with them. It has zero to do with speed. I couldn't care less about a few feet per second.
I let my bows decide what string they like.
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I don't feel the need for speed, but I do prefer how FF feels at the shot.
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Is extra free performance needed? Is a truck needed when a horse gets you there? :^)
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For me it's how the bow feels/preforms with FF compared to Dacron. To each their own.
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Needed.....no. but....i like it and D97 for certain bows.
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Ok, I guess my question comes down to this. I am going to order a new schafer silvertip. Only diamondwood riser is FF rated. So many exotics to make a custom from. So should I worry about 5-8 fps ? I can also get double carbon limbs. I draw 47# @ 30" ....
Don't know if I'm overthinking it
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I love Silvertips and have owned many over the years. Currently I have three and definitely prefer the FF models. I think you should talk with Beth and Dave about what you want and go from there. They are great folks. It would be best to shoot a Dacron and FF Silvertip to see what you like the best, but that might not be possible. Have fun deciding, because you can't go wrong with a Silvertip.
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Funnie thing , I prefer FF on my longbows but prefer B-55 on my recurves .
Is it necessary ?
No , just comes down to preference .
In Traditional archery , if you are to concerned about speed , you should just shoot with wheels .
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I do not see the need for FF in my recurves. Actually yo be honest I have a few custom recurves that shoot better with Dacron. So I shoot whatever the bow likes.
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It's not about speed. In equally well made strings, there's little difference in performance between dacron and any of the "FF" type materials.
The difference is: durability, consistency, stability.
I agree the average shot on a whitetail is probably 12-15 yds. Pretty sure my average is less than that. That boils down to how many shots a year...one, two, ten?
Now, what does it take to get that one, two, ten shots? How many practice shots? How long did you sit there (in the South it's still HOT when the whitetail season opens...dacron can stretch like crazy in the heat). What kind of crap did you walk through to get to your spot?
If it were just about one, or two, or even ten shots a year and nothing else had to be taken into consideration, I don't think there would be much to think about.
However, when you are practicing thousands of shots throughout the year; when you may be sitting for hours and hours before you get that one shot; when you may be wading through briars or climbing rocks or whatever to get to your spot...that's when the difference in durability, stability, and consistency...not to mention the huge difference in can make in how comfortable the shot it...makes a ton of difference.
No slight towards anyone or any bow, but I personally won't even consider buying a new bow that's not warrantied for whatever string I want to put on it, anymore than I'd buy a bow that required me to shoot a particular type of arrow, or a particular type of broadhead, or a particular type of glove, etc. But, that's just me.
Again, performance differences are at the absolute bottom of my list of benefits when it comes to strings. In a well made string, there's normally not enough difference to make a difference. There are lots of other things that do add up to a big difference.
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Any little advantage is still an advantage! I have had deer duck the arrow at 12-15yds, even with ff string.
It's all personal preference, and what each guy likes for whatever reason, is what he should use.
Bisch
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5-8 fps translates into about 3-4# of bow weight all other things being equal. If I get that essentially for nothing but a different string, I'll take it. A low stretch string also reduces limb vibration and hand shock on every bow I've ever put it on. For me, it's a no brainer.
All the talk about low stretch strings harming older bows relates to the material damaging the limbs, yet with Tips, it applies only to the riser. Rather confusing.
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No. Archers got along fine without it for centuries.
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I don't think so. However, I'm old school and was always taught ff strings were hard on my bows.
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I am curious as to why the bow maker has issues with FF strings on bows made with solid woods not dymondwood type materials.
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I like my FF tip. I understand your dilemma. Dyamondwood just doesn't catch your eye like those highly figured exotics. I wish they would just make a phenolic I beam sandwiched riser for strength as others do. I shoot FF for the simple reason I don't have to fool with the string any more after I get it tuned to my liking. The fact that it is generally quieter and a little faster makes it a win win. Just not as purdy!!
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Again, no slight towards anyone...but I've been using BCY-X on a Samick Journey for going on 5 years. I draw about 31", arrows are approximately 8 gpp. I have a longbow I shot almost exclusively for 15 years or more, it never had a dacron string on it--most of the time Dynaflight '97, but also 8125 and 450+. [email protected]", arrows approximately 9 gpp. Used it so much it's been refinished twice, and is scuffed up again. Hasn't lost a pound, still shoots like it did when it was new.
As far as I know there's never been any type of study of the effects of string material and bow longevity.
I know I've blown up a lot of bows over the years (mostly selfbows) and all but one had a dacron string on it the time. The only one that had a HMPE string on it failed mid-limb...not at the riser, not at the tips (it was a self bow).
When he was competing, Rod Jenkins put more arrows through a bow in a year than most will in a lifetime. Pretty sure he never had a bow failure that could be attributed to the string.
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I agree with LBR. Fast flight is not necessary and you are giving up a few fps but you can get that fps back by dropping arrow weight very slightly.
Each string material has their own advantages but if you are shooting your bow naked (no string silencers) dacron is superior in my opinion.
Fast flight goes doingggg Dacron goes hummmm
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For me right now "yes"
For me it is about making the best shot with traditional gear I can (I owe it to the game I hunt). I think speed, accuracy, quite, and knowing I'm going to be consistent (stretch and movement), all come from being confident, which FF helps me with.
That's at this point in my life, maybe in ten years I go to woodies and have the chance to shoot daily and everything changes.
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No, not necessary. It's fine to use the advantages the ff offers, even if it is a small difference,,, If that makes you feel better and more confident go for it. In a practical purpose way, I think there is only little difference either way, so just choose, they are both good strings.
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No, it is not necessary, but many like it. I know some guys who believe that their bows perform better with it, aside from the speed perspective.
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No, not necessary, but... Very few people buy a bow with the intention of selling it, but if the time comes when you do FF Tips sell WAY better than non FF models.
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Nope, but as Chad said the polyester based strings can be a big pain in the butt. I still remember having to readjust halfway through 3D on hot days. They also wore out more quickly but I was shooting heavier bows back then.
These days I'm shooting lighter bows so the extra performance is helpful, but even if the newer stuff was slower I'd still use it just to avoid the stretch/creep. Drove me nuts.
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Kegan, exactly.
Is "FF" required? Not any more than fiberglass, epoxy, phenolic, actionwood, aluminum/carbon/etc. arrows, steel broadheads, shooting gloves, etc. Pretty much everything on the planet has been killed with a bow and arrow that utilized none of these.
Do these materials make archery equipment more durable, more stable, more reliable, more consistent, more fun? Definitely.
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Chad two questions. If one has a short draw length would that lessen the chance of shock damage on a bow that is perhaps not FF made? Do you think that there could be string groove issues more with one or the other material? Over the years I have fixed longbows three had only shot B50 strings and one that had a badly made FF string, that had gouging in the string grooves. Most of the time that was caused by grit, the ff strung longbow could still have been grit caused, but it did have lots of broken strands in one spline.
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Tons of variables to consider, draw length being one of them. No doubt a shorter draw would be easier on the bow. Would it be enough of a difference to make a difference? No idea.
I don't think the material will make much if any difference. If the loop is padded and properly built (round), the (FF type) material shouldn't matter. The angle of the string grooves will also make a big difference.
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Originally posted by pavan:
Chad two questions. If one has a short draw length would that lessen the chance of shock damage on a bow that is perhaps not FF made? Do you think that there could be string groove issues more with one or the other material? Over the years I have fixed longbows three had only shot B50 strings and one that had a badly made FF string, that had gouging in the string grooves. Most of the time that was caused by grit, the ff strung longbow could still have been grit caused, but it did have lots of broken strands in one spline.
I have spoke with Bob Morrison about this several times and he states that draw length has a lot to do with what a bow can take or not take. If you think of the concept, it makes sense. Shooting a FF string on a vintage bow that you only draw to 26" wouldn't be as bad as one you draw to 30", would it?
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Shooting a FF string on a vintage bow that you only draw to 26" wouldn't be as bad as one you draw to 30", would it?
A shorter draw is not as much stress on old bow limbs, both at full draw and at release. Again though...is it enough of a difference to make a difference? How about padded loops? Heavy arrows? How heavy?
Might get away with it, might not. As far as I know there's been no studies on the effects of string materials on bow limbs, old or new.
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maybe not necessary but desired - harder to sell a dacron only bow IMHO.
I can't stand the string creep
Just my 2 cents
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not required at all...dacron is a fine string and I found that when shooting almost daily and I leave my bow strung that creep is a non issue...as it has been already worked out...and an equally broken in string is set as a backup and taped so it wont untwist...so really no creep just some settling of the strands happens. That being said most of my bows have D97 on them but I would have no issue going to a B50 or the newer B55. I dont like the super skinny strings how they feel against my fingers...dont care about speed...but do like how the D97 seems to wear better than my dacron with less waxing.
I will not poo-poo a bow that is dacron only just like I wont walk away from one that is FF only.....Once I get the bow set up and have a second backup string set up...I really could care less what it is made out of as long as I have a backup and have been shooting it a bit to ensure it is holding braceheight. Good luck.
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It is not needed...but on some of my bows..especially vintage bows it can change the whole feel of the bow and improve the shooting qualities significantly. At least for me
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It can make wearing a brace unnecessary.
Tedd
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Not needed, but it certainly improves performance. Every bow I've ever shot with a Dacron string has been improved by putting on a low stretch string, be it D-97, D-10 or anything else that's not Dacron on it.
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Of course it's not needed. It is nice though! Comes off the hand cleaner I think
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Not needed.
Some bows shoot better overall with B-50 or B-55 no doubt!
However most shoot better overall with the latest FF strings.
For instance I have a new 1960 Kodiak replica and have tried 3 different FF type strings on it.I have the one B-55 that came with the bow.No comparison.The B-55 shoots noticably better on this particular bow.Softer,quieter and sweeter feeling than any of the other 3 FF strings I tried on it.I have had other bows like this one that were better with B-55,B-50.
I thought it shoots great when I got it with the B-55.Cant wait to try my FF strings on it.Should be even better.Not!
Its not one size fits all.
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Needed? No.... but a little extra speed never hurts
FF is more stable, durable, has less hand shock, and is quieter in my opinion. Faster is just a great bonus.
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Not needed. But it's pretty cheap so why not?
I wouldn't let it affect my decision to buy a particular bow if everything else was good.
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I believe the consensus (in no particular order) is:
1. It's not needed...BUT
2. The resell value will always be higher with FF compatibility, higher than the FF upgrade cost.
3. Performance will be increased.
4. Shootability (is that a word?) may be increased.
5. You can still use a dacron string if you desire.
6. There is nothing wrong with owning a bow with stronger limb tips and riser that you get with FF compatibility.
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Pretty much, except in my experience I'd swap 3 and 4. Performance may be increased (maybe a little, normally not noticeably except when going from one extreme to another), "shootability" (less shock, better consistency, better stability) will be improved--at least it has been on every bow I've tried both on.
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According to most if a Hill style longbow has the glass wedge in the tips it fast flite compatible. Some say the recurves from the 60s with the fiberglass overlays are not. Those fiber glass overlays have more stuff than that single wedge in a Hill style bow. One of my friends is shooting at times a cheapy he got off of edunk. It has no overlays, it came with no string, so he ordered a string. He has been shooting that bow off and on for 6 years, the string he bought was a fast flite and it is not even padded, they told him it would last longer, but no mention was made as to what bow they were making the string for. I could see no wear on the bow from it.
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As noted before, there are lots more variables to consider besides the tip over lays (or lack thereof). I've seen two bows with the tips literally sawn off by a FF string. Old bows, no tip reinforcement, no padding in the loops.
Some folks may get away with it, other's won't. Some people hunt from elevated stands without a safety belt and don't fall. Some don't. Neither is worth the risk IMO.
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No one has mentioned noise either. I have found I don't need silencers on my longbows with fat Dacron strings and what low pitch sound there is does not tend to be noticed by animals as much as a higher pitched sound.
Also if you heat your strings before stringing up the bow I find little / no future creep.
I'll stick with my old ways....
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I think on the above bow, it has rather wide tips and does not get drawn far, besides only being shot occasionally is why it has not been damaged so far. He also likes to melt bee wax and dip the loops. I told him to do that with the B 50s I made for him, so I wouldn't have to make so many, maybe that extra lubrication helps the bow. He was one of the people that had a longbow with bad nock wear from a crusty string. I did tell him to get an endless B50 for that shorty recurve if he wants to keep shooting.
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Noise is a relative thing, very dependent on lots of variables besides the string. I have, over they years, had lots of people comment on how quiet my bow was (with a "FF" string on it) and I've had lots of customers tell me their bow was quieter with a "FF" string I made than the dacron string they had been using. For whatever it's worth, IIRC lower pitches travel further. My feathers generally make more noise than my bow.
Since all modern string materials (including polyester/dacron) are a type of plastic fiber, heating them can easily result in damage. String material manufacturers even caution against over-burnishing, due to generating too much heat.
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Before I went to having Chad make my strings, my method of stretching B50s was to hang them on a stout hook bolted to a beam in my basement, then I ran a rope loop through the other end, put it on my boot and put all of my weight on the new string. It only take a minute or so of dangling like that to get to max stretch. I have my wife hold a loaded bow alongside for comparison. This eliminates the needs to loaded and unload the new string on a bow so often. When I shot heavy bows putting an intentionally short new string on a bow just to let them stretch out was not the best thing for my torn hip muscle. It takes a lot of extra umph to get a string that is two inches short and unstretched on a 68" or 70" longbow.
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Animals hear higher pitches better than people and they are more directional.
Heating them enough to melt beezwax causes no issues. Bob Swinehart heated his.
I have also been told by a well respected bowyer that lower stretch materials can mask poor design and tiller thereby making them feel "better"..... so there is that.
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If I do not die of old age before that time, I will be shooting B50s on that bow from said bowyer. I just shot 300 or so this afternoon and I am still on my feet. It took a bit of doing this spring to get back, but the ice on my low back does feel good.
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Learned alot in this thread. Thanks!
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Animals hear noise better than people period. Lower pitches carry further.
String (except for white/natural) goes through a "heat treating" process when it's colored...the color is a baked-on coating, because plastic doesn't accept dye. This is a controlled treatment.
Bowyers are people with opinions. Jack Harrison would void the warranty if you used dacron. Many of the more unusual claims I've seen/heard about strings were from bowyers, and one contradicts the other. Archers who shoot accurately for a living use the better materials.
If materials other than dacron can "mask" a poor design or tiller, just think what they could do for a good design and tiller!
If someone likes to shoot squirrel hide strings, that's up to them. Nothing wrong with that. I like selfbows myself (I put the better string materials on them though). It doesn't change the fact that HMPE and HMPE/Vectran blends have real and verifiable benefits over polyester (dacron).
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I see you sell bowstrings. Hmmmm. I don't. I hunt.
The crack if a twig is hugh pitched and likely to alert an animal, whereas the low hum of a bumble bee may not.
I think it laughable you compare dacron to squirrel hides, but whatever.
I'm communicating my opinion from experiences and the readers can take from it what they want. Dacron works fine. Use what you want to.
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No it's not needed, nor are laminated bows and carbon/aluminum arrows, factory machined broad heads etc. it's all a matter of preference and we as traditional archers have a lot of options when it comes to gear.
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Two4hooking, He sells Dacron strings too ya know...
FF type string have come a long way since it was first introduced. Far superior to B50 at this point in pretty much every way.
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Thank you md126! Cyclic-Rivers, I agree 100%.
Along with building strings, I'm also a hunter, target shooter, recreational archer, and I help coach a 3-time State Champion NASP archery team (going for our 4th win Monday--just won our North Half Championship for the 4th year in a row). You could say I'm involved in archery a little bit more than just making strings.
I've studied strings and string materials for over 20 years, and part of that is talking to thousands of archers, most of which hunt. I've been involved with two string making videos, and attend large events with BCY to help out with folks who have questions about traditional bow strings. I don't claim to know it all, but I do have more experience than the average archer. Selling strings has been a huge advantage in advancing my education about them.
I didn't compare squirrel hide to dacron. Squirrel hide was used by some Indian tribes as a bow string. My point was it will work and if you like it that's fine, but there are better options.
Now, comparing the sound a string makes to a bee...well...lol...birds, squirrels, and raccoons make some high pitched noises that don't seem to bother deer, so does that prove strings with a higher pitch are more desirable for hunters? ***insert sarcasm smile here***
Heck, I have some rivercane arrows with stone heads coming. I hope to kill a deer with one. It's a choice. I don't have to try and argue that they are better than carbon or aluminum and steel to justify my choice--they aren't, but I'm going to use them anyway. They will do the job if I do my part. Just like dacron isn't a better string material, but it will work if that's what you want to use.
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I am not 100% certain on any of the things being talked about but I'd be willing to bet money that a high pitched sound will spook an animal much easier than a low pitched sound. High pitched sounds are generally not heard much out in nature. This is why I believe that low pitched sounds and music is used more in relaxing music. It's because it relaxes you and is not alarming.
A high pitched sound like a teaspoon hitting a wine glass produces a high pitched sound that will alarm people whereas hitting a large drum lightly will produce a low pitched sound and will not alarm anyone.
As for high pitch not traveling as far as low pitched, sound follows the inverse square law just like light. All sounds volume falls off at the same rate so I can't see this being true if both the high pitched sound and low pitched sound have the same exact volume.
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Here's one answer to the low pitch travelling further. There's are lots more.
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-bass-travel-further-than-high-pitched-sounds
There are gobs of high-pitched sounds in nature, from insects to birds to frogs; squirrels, raccoons, rabbits, etc. All sorts of animals make them.
Thunder is low pitched and travels for miles, but the initial high-pitched "crack" of the lightening strike doesn't.
I am certain of the facts I presented concerning string materials, and they are easy to verify.
Again, if you like polyester (Dacron ) strings, by all means use then. You don't have to justify your preferences to anyone. I'm just presenting facts to help those who are learning make an informed choice.
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(http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/two4hooking/Trad%20Know%20How/Behavioral%20Audiogram%20of%20White-tailed%20Deer_zpspu9tcv1d.jpg) (http://s481.photobucket.com/user/two4hooking/media/Trad%20Know%20How/Behavioral%20Audiogram%20of%20White-tailed%20Deer_zpspu9tcv1d.jpg.html)
I may just be a dumb redneck hunter, but I do know what I experience with my Hill style longbow sporting Dacron and how it differs from when I shot other things and materials in an animals reaction.
Sorry if it conflicts with your "facts".
Just my experiences personally.
Peace out.
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I'd love to see you at a shoot. I shoot 60#+ hill style longbows with fast flight strings and I'll guarantee that your bow is louder than mine. There's a massive difference in performance and feel to boot.
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Just sitting here LMAO.....
:laughing: :dunno:
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I shoot low stretch FF type strings for how they feel,the bow feels more solid and not springy.I don't shoot it for any speed increase.Just not a fan of dacron!
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A bow that shoots nice with a B50 string does a lot of other things right as well. I recently handed a longbow over to a friend that was rather harsh with a B50. That particular bowyer puts the single glass wedge in his tips and only advocates padded fast flights. My friend found that my reconstructed grip on that bow fit his hand perfect and he was putting a bit of pressure on it. He noticed the harshness, so I put one of Chad's BCY strings on it. Huge difference on that bow. He went home and preceded to shoot for three solid hours. The next day he was at his chiro, no rotator cuff damage. I warned him about his round house draw and goose necking. When his shoulder settles down some shooting instructions will be in order. Anyway, also with that bow we had to go five pounds up in spine when going to the Chad string, which was a good thing because that is what I had on hand.
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Thanks men! :thumbsup:
High pitched sounds are generally not heard much out in nature.
You've never heard crickets, cicadas, squirrels, rabbits, raccoons; birds from chickadees to ducks to hawks and owls; foxes, bobcats, coyotes, panthers/cougar/mountain lions; frogs and toads (especially tree frogs); whitetails, elk, etc?
I've been fortunate to hunt in MS, AL,TN,SC, GA, CO, NM, and Northern Ontario in all sorts of environments and there's always something vocalizing some time or the other, and it's almost always in a high pitch. About the only low pitchs I've heard that I can think of off-hand is a bull frog, a moose grunting, or a bear.
No idea how you can determine a different pitch would cause a different reaction in an animal because every situation is different and you can't test both to compare reactions.
I've blinked at the wrong time while 20+ feet up a tree and spooked deer, and I've seen a deer stand there and watch with interest while two people were carrying on a conversation.
If I've made a mistake in the facts I listed, please point it out so I can correct it. I've made mistakes before, and I'm sure if I live very much longer I'll make more...but if I can be shown the error of my ways, I'll gladly retract the fallacy.
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Do any of you guys use linen for your bow string? I'm curious as to how that would compare with both fast flight and Dacron.
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If I remember correctly, the old linen strings had less stretch than B50. I read in an old magazine article that the endless B50 string would stretch some, so one was expected to needed to twist it more than the early strings, which I was assuming were flax linen. As far as to what pitches deer react to, would my blinking eyeballs be a low pitch or a high pitch? I know that sound my nose makes when I sniffle, scares the crap out of them.
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I've been in this trad game along long time. I've not had a single bow that didn't shoot better and quieter with a properly made HP string and the skinnier the better. And I've killed a lot of critters all over the continent if that matters.
Is it needed absolutely not! But I don't see myself ever going back to over built noisy slow strings. PERIOD.
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quote:
Originally posted by Roy from Pa:
Just sitting here LMAO.....
:laughing: :laughing:
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Originally posted by pavan:
If I remember correctly, the old linen strings had less stretch than B50. I read in an old magazine article that the endless B50 string would stretch some, so one was expected to needed to twist it more than the early strings, which I was assuming were flax linen. As far as to what pitches deer react to, would my blinking eyeballs be a low pitch or a high pitch? I know that sound my nose makes when I sniffle, scares the crap out of them.
Interesting. I'll have to give linen a shot. I like the fact that it's a natural material as well.
As for pitches and how loud the sound of the string is. I currently have a longbow stringed up with BCYX and while it is slightly faster than a Dacron string it makes a very un natural high pitched sound. I must say that BCYX will last forever, I have not even waxed the string not once and it shows almost no fraying even after 6 months of use.
If someone could make a string that was natural sounding like Dacron yet did not creep at all it would become very popular among hunters.
This is directed to LBR but the sounds you mentioned are not what I'd consider high pitched. I'm talking about the loud sound of a fast flight string slapping the limb of a recurve that has no padding on the limb.
That loud smack and twang.