Post by: J-KID on May 11, 2006, 01:30:00 PM
Here is a testimonial from Charles Land who is a "Master Learning Facilitator For the Coaching Association of Canada, as well, I am also an NFAA Master Coach at the Pro level 4."
"Dear Jay . . . I have been working with archers from several countries that include Canada, USA, Holland and England and it is absolutely amazing that, without exception, I have had a 100% success rate on the cure of their respective degrees of target panic. These archers are all at the advanced, up to and including, one that is an Olympic archer. It makes me feel very special when I look and see the expression on their face when they come to realize that there is a cure and now a future. This is outstanding information and I would just like to thank you for helping me to become a more competent coach and trainer of coaches. This information is now going to form part of my seminars ( yes . . . I will be giving you your just credit ) when I work with various levels of coaches and athletes."
Basically, target panic can be identified by the symptoms. Either you experience a premature release or a premature hold. A premature release is most common with instinctive shooters and a premature hold is most common with sight or gap shooters. Often, the premature hold is followed by a push toward the target and a sometimes violent release or plucking in an effort to release the arrow in the direction of the bullseye.
There are many other causes for slumps in accuracy and missing. Many of these are also discussed in the book. I can also help you with these problems if they go beyond the everyday struggles that all of us have (and enjoy to some degree) as we try to perfect our shooting.
You can email me with a detailed description of your symptoms and I'll be happy to help. (Actually, I am supposed to be grading out psychology exams and am looking for a distraction.) Target panic robs the joy of archery from far too many and if I can help you find that joy again I will be pleased. Email me at [email protected] and we'll see what we can do.
Jay Kidwell, Ph.D. (Post hole Digger!)
Post by: Raven on May 11, 2006, 02:22:00 PM
!["[heman]"]("graemlins/heman.gif" "\"\"")
Post by: buzzcut on May 11, 2006, 03:19:00 PM
Jeff
Post by: J-KID on May 11, 2006, 05:21:00 PM
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on May 11, 2006, 05:33:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on May 11, 2006, 05:58:00 PM
Trad Gang Sponsors to purchase online/catalog,
Three Rivers Archery
Lost Nation Archery
Post by: J-KID on May 11, 2006, 06:18:00 PM
Post by: Blackhawk on May 11, 2006, 06:29:00 PM
I ordered your book from Three Rivers about a month ago when I was in the middle of another training program to "cure" me when it arrived. It was just a short article written by Larry Yien, and his method seems to be similar to what you advocate.
I was releasing as soon as I hit anchor with a violent pluck every few shots. I bought a clicker which helped, but as soon as I removed it, I was back to my old habits.
I tried visualizing that the target was something I did not want to shoot (such as my pet lab or loved one or...) and that helped for only a few shots. I would revert back to the old habits in a short time. :scared:
Larry's method was to try a week long regimen of drawing to anchor and holding for several seconds without releasing. After a week long of this, he said to draw, hold and release. I tried this and it worked some, however, at the last 3-D shoot I attended I began the quick release thing again. :knothead:
As for your book, I only read the last chapter on target panic. You have the best description of what transpires in the afflicted person's mind I have ever read. I think this is a good beginning for someone seeking a cure. I have gone back to the weeklong beginning routine of training my little brain once again.
I am ready for any advice, video, audio, etc. that can have a positive effect. Archery has been a part of my life for over 50 years and I am not willing to give it up without a fight. :confused:
Post by: J-KID on May 11, 2006, 09:02:00 PM
Once again, anyone wanting some personalized help with target panic - this is your chance. Or actually, you can email me anytime I guess. When your techniques are 100% successful it's fun to help!
ttt
Post by: coconutdave on May 11, 2006, 09:50:00 PM
Thanks for the email, I'll give your advise a try starting tomarrow. :thumbsup:
Dave
Post by: bluemoonrising on May 11, 2006, 11:18:00 PM
Post by: Danny Rowan on May 11, 2006, 11:41:00 PM
I sent you an email. Not about TP, about something else.
Danny
Post by: J-KID on May 12, 2006, 12:04:00 AM
Post by: Steve H. on May 12, 2006, 02:21:00 AM
I've actually been wondering if some kind of hypnotism might help?!?
Post by: J-KID on May 12, 2006, 06:42:00 AM
Get the details to me Steve and we'll work on it.
Jay
Post by: Nu2Trad on May 12, 2006, 07:55:00 AM
Post by: J-KID on May 12, 2006, 08:24:00 AM
Jay
Post by: varmint on May 12, 2006, 08:28:00 AM
Not TP related,but I saw your post and figured I reply where you would see it.
The recurve I got from you(along with your autographed book)awhile back is great.I've been shooting it quite a bit since I received,and I'm looking forward to this coming season.Even got to talk with Owen and Tom Jeffery at our Trad Shoot earlier this year.
So,I guess I'll just lend my .02 cents and tell everyone that it's a very informative book,and puts alot of things in perspective.
Thanks for getting me "on the button"!
Post by: J-KID on May 12, 2006, 08:47:00 AM
Post by: marc_groleau on May 13, 2006, 06:44:00 AM
Post by: Steve H. on May 13, 2006, 11:02:00 AM
Post by: J-KID on May 13, 2006, 08:00:00 PM
Post by: ChuckC on May 13, 2006, 10:17:00 PM
Chuck
Post by: yleecoyote23 on May 13, 2006, 11:05:00 PM
Thanks for writing the book, I need to get one of the newer editions now!!
Post by: J-KID on May 16, 2006, 03:52:00 PM
Post by: Ghost Dog on May 16, 2006, 11:17:00 PM
I am a pretty good shot, but I have been having a terrible time feeling in control of my release. I used to dread practice because of this. Jay sent me some very simple exercises to overcome this problem, and within seconds I could hold on target with NO problem. What a relief to feel in total control of my shot, and not just release becuase I was on target. Thanks Jay!
Bob Moon
Post by: Nook on May 17, 2006, 10:46:00 AM
Jeff Harper
Post by: last arrow on May 18, 2006, 02:56:00 PM
I am getting a solid anchor all the time after less than a weeks work. I am hoping to get to my bow during daylight soon so I can try working outside to see how shooting at distance will effect things.
Thanks Jay and I hope we can return the favor in the future.
Post by: Ghost Dog on May 19, 2006, 02:46:00 PM
Post by: Gordy on May 20, 2006, 11:52:00 PM
Shot my first 3D in awhile today and shot par (for me).
BUT, I had switched back to my longbow, so I must say that I have seen some real improvement.
As I described it to Mr. Kidwell, I've found a new comfort zone in my shooting and am finding more control. I have a ways to go yet, but feel I have been givin some realistic tools to work with. :thumbsup:
I'll try back in ahwile and see if my scores improve. For now, all I can say is; it's getting fun again !
Thanks Jay
Post by: bluemoonrising on May 28, 2006, 11:10:00 AM
Post by: donb on June 01, 2006, 09:06:00 PM
Post by: Tedd on June 10, 2006, 09:23:00 AM
Your advice has me shooting better than I have in years. I didn't know how bad I was struggling.
I hit more bullseyes in the last 3 weeks than I did in the last 3 years. I'm in control!
I ordered the book, but it was back ordered. Darn.
I must have had "it" real bad cause I have to do my drills pretty regular or I'll slip back to my old ways.
Thanks again.
Tedd
Post by: okie archer on June 12, 2006, 01:00:00 PM
I just converted from compound to traditional late last fall. I started with a 50# Martin Vision (bought off Tradgang) and found I didn't have control of the bow. I had no trouble pulling the bow back, I just couldn't hold it at my anchor and aim properly. I felt "over-bowed" and I'm a good size fella so imagine my surprise when I had trouble with a 50# bow. After shooting a couple months and not getting anywhere with my 50# bow, I decided to buy a 40# Martin Vision (bought off Tradgang) to work on form thinking this was my problem. A couple months went by and I did better with the lighter poundage bow but my groups were wide and I still didn't shoot well at all. I needed lots of improvement and I was trying to do it my own way.
I saw Jay's post here on Tradgang so I ordered his book then emailed him about my problem. He replied that my problem was "premature hold" and said he could cure it and gave me exercises to work on. In about 3 days of doing the exercises with my 40# bow, I was already shooting much better. It was amazing how quickly the exercises helped me. Just to test that the exercises were really helping me and that this wasn't just a fluke, I decided to try out my 50# bow and I was still a little skeptical. Afer all, I spent a few months trying to do it my way and was not getting better. With the 50# bow I did the exercises as the book describes and then started shooting. WOW! The exercises worked! I was amazed and excited that I could finally shoot my 50# bow and hit what I was aiming at.
I went back to the 40# bow to work on form and repeat the exercises. My groups shrank tremendously. I stuck with the 40# bow for a long time because the lighter bows are easier to do the exercises with in the beginning. So, about a month later I grabbed the 50# bow wanting to see if I could still shoot it after having set it aside for a while. As you can probably guess, the answer is YES! Ok, so now I'm convinced that the exercises work and I mostly shoot the 50# now. I will occasionally break out the 40# to work on form and of course work on the exercises. As Jay states, these exercises should be part of your regular shooting routine. (Read the book!) I find myself falling back into the old routine of the "premature hold" on occasion and all I have to do is go back to the training to fix it. It works!
Another ineresting aspect to the exercises was that they helped me find my anchor. I also went from shooting with a glove to using a tab. I prefered a tab but before reading Jay's book couldn't shoot well with it all (I couldn't shoot well period). When I started the exercises I used a tab only and now I use a tab full time. I'm not bad mouthing gloves, I just prefer a tab and Jay's shooting techniques made it so I could use a tab. His book helped me tremendously as you can tell. This is the only book I've read to improve my shooting and I highly recommend it to anyone else who's new to traditional archery or anyone who wants to improve their accuracy. The success rate speaks for itself. The problem really is all in your head and Jay can fix it. Thanks Jay!
Art.
Post by: steve morley on June 17, 2006, 01:35:00 PM
Anyway I found you book very interesting some points I had figured out already for myself beforehand and many points he suggested I hadn't thought of.
Picked up the Bow today and shot at my friends place, said he hasn't seen me shoot so well for at least 12 months and with my Longbow I was dropping arrows into a A4 size face at 50 yards, it's been a while since I've done that kind of shooting with any consistency and it's given me a real confidence boost.
I'm now feeling very relaxed and controlled about my shooting and I'm looking forward to reading the book thoroughly and implementing Jays ideas fully into my training programe.
Being a top international tourney shooter it shows us that no matter how good an Archer you become, there's always something new to learn.
Post by: Papa on June 17, 2006, 05:42:00 PM
Post by: Gordy on June 17, 2006, 10:14:00 PM
Still working through it, although is has been and will probably continue to be a long road.....for me.
Post by: steve morley on June 17, 2006, 10:59:00 PM
I thought it somewhat miss-leading in that it seemed geared towards instinctive hunter types and after reading it thought the book went beyond instinctive archery\\bowhunting. Being a tourney archer I think I might have never purchased the book if it wasn't for the posting on this forum.
It was a lucky find for me.
:D
Post by: 1/4 away on June 22, 2006, 04:26:00 PM
Post by: gcoleman on June 24, 2006, 06:04:00 AM
[email protected]
Post by: Raven on June 24, 2006, 11:14:00 PM
GOOD LUCK! :thumbsup: :archer:
Post by: gcoleman on June 25, 2006, 06:47:00 AM
Post by: huntsmanlance on July 07, 2006, 03:36:00 AM
but seriously....i have been shooting for about 5 years and about a year and a half ago i developed what others called on here...."IT" My form of "IT" is somewhere before i get fully drawn back my mind starts sceaming...Release! Release!!!.......now i am plenty strong enough to hold even a 65# bow at full draw for some time......AS LONG AS I AM NOT AIMING AT SOMETHING!
I finally posted on here in the forums and was told what "IT" was and some information on how to kick it......but i still havent so far....it nearly made me quit shooting altogether there for awhile....
I am definately going to order this book!
Post by: Tom A on July 07, 2006, 01:39:00 PM
Post by: talkstosquirrells on July 09, 2006, 11:41:00 PM
Post by: talkstosquirrells on July 10, 2006, 11:43:00 PM
Post by: huntsmanlance on July 12, 2006, 04:58:00 PM
Jay thank you for taking the time to help others out!
Post by: Doug R on July 12, 2006, 09:18:00 PM
Post by: talkstosquirrells on July 13, 2006, 12:49:00 AM
Post by: PaPaFrank on August 22, 2006, 09:23:00 AM
Post by: pappy on August 22, 2006, 10:24:00 AM
Pappy
Post by: Eric Krewson on August 29, 2006, 09:26:00 AM
Post by: pappy on August 29, 2006, 10:50:00 AM
it will help me I seems to be doing better.I
sure hope so I have been struggling with this for 3 or 4 years.The only problem I have is holding my self bows back for the time it take to go through the routine he suggest.I hate doing that with my selfbows so I think I will get a glass bow to do it with.Good luck!!!
Pappy
Post by: Gordy on September 09, 2006, 09:35:00 AM
More importantly, I am able to feel immediately when I make a TP related mistake and immediately correct it using the simple exercises.
I'd love to borrow my copy of Mr. Kidwells book to anybody and everybody who needs it, but I'm not letting that thing out of my sight.....ever. ;)
Practice more .... shoot less. It's working for me. :thumbsup:
Post by: pjsnell on September 13, 2006, 04:18:00 PM
I have shot a 45# recurve for several years, and can draw and hold at anchor comfortably with this bow. I recently got my hands on a 50# longbow that I struggle to get to anchor with.
Note: I have measured the recurve on a bow scale, and it is 45# @ 28. I have not scaled the longbow yet.
Thanks!
Peter
Post by: Ray on September 16, 2006, 09:31:00 AM
Post by: Eric Krewson on November 05, 2006, 08:35:00 AM
The second day of our archery season I had a 12 yd shot at a spike buck. I drew and HIT ANCHOR for the first time in 30 years of bow hunting. Just as I hit anchor the buck looked up at me. After he spotted me he had no trouble ducking my arrow.
I do the exercises often and am much more focused when I draw on a target.
I was so grateful for him unselfishly taking the time to help me with my TP I ordered his book yesterday. My way of saying "thank you Jay".
Post by: bayoulongbowman on November 05, 2006, 09:06:00 AM
Post by: J-KID on November 05, 2006, 12:25:00 PM
Post by: bayoulongbowman on November 05, 2006, 12:46:00 PM
Post by: bayoulongbowman on November 05, 2006, 06:35:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on January 25, 2007, 01:48:00 PM
Have you seen postive results? :thumbsup:
Post by: last arrow on January 26, 2007, 09:51:00 AM
You provided me with instructions last year and it has helped control my short drawing. Occasionally, I will find myself short drawing, but it is usually corrected with a few draw and hold or draw and move right -left before release exercises.
I sometimes still have problems with releasing before my bow arm is "locked on" target. Now I am working on getting a solid bow arm while focused on the spot before releasing.
Thanks for your help, it is good to be in control.
Post by: bayoulongbowman on January 26, 2007, 10:03:00 AM
Post by: gobbler10ga on January 27, 2007, 09:57:00 AM
Post by: J-KID on February 01, 2007, 09:07:00 AM
Instinctive Archery Insights: Revised Edition is now being translated and published in Estonian and German. I guess it will be around for a while. I'd like to give it one more final revision someday; however, I am currently working diligently on a new book "Parameters of the Soul." If you think you might be interested in a distinct Christian psychology, constructed from the ground up, keep an eye out for it in 2008. I've been working on this book for 15 years and will be relieved to get it finished.
Thanks to all and good shooting!
Post by: Grant Young on February 01, 2007, 09:44:00 AM
Grant Young
Post by: B.O.D. on February 01, 2007, 01:46:00 PM
I can hold all day if I know I'm not shooting anything.
He emailed me right back and sent me 4 different little drills to do with my bow.
I went out this aft. and tried them out.
I could not believe the difference it made when I was done the drills.
For the first time in a long time I shot 9 out of 10 arrows with a deliberate hold at full anchor while picking my spot.
My draw felt effortless, the bow quiet and smooth.
Arrow flight was AMAZING!
How these little drills work is beyond me, but it shows how mental archery is.
How in the world 4 SIMPLE drills with my longbow helped my ability to be in control again is amazing.
Jay is a true GURU of this stuff.
If you have not read his book, DO IT!
I'm going to continue the drills every other day for a week until it becomes ingrained.
LOOK OUT critters...I"m BACK!
Thanks Jay.
BD
Post by: Dragonslayer on March 04, 2007, 12:51:00 AM
Rich
Post by: J-KID on March 04, 2007, 01:01:00 AM
Send me a PM with details about what you are experiencing. Include as much information as possible about the problem and how it effects your shooting. We'll see what we can do.
Post by: Dragonslayer on March 04, 2007, 02:16:00 PM
Just letting you know I just sent you a letter to you, hopefully it gets there.
Thanking you in advance Mr Kidwell.
Post by: Dragonslayer on March 04, 2007, 02:17:00 PM
[email protected]
Post by: keith brimmer on March 05, 2007, 03:25:00 PM
Post by: knobby on March 05, 2007, 04:00:00 PM
All I can say is, try Jay's methods. For now, I dropped down in bow weight alittle, but still enough draw weight for whitetails. I also do the drills before shooting any arrows. I can't emphasize enough the importance of getting a DEEP death-grip on the string when you start. That, and learning to shoot using the back muscles has me enjoying shooting again. Am I back to where I was in '78? Nope, but I know I'm headed in the right direction. Thanks, Jay!
Post by: User Name on March 06, 2007, 10:49:00 PM
After reading these amazing posts, I was thinking of reading your book to develop good habits before I develop bad ones.
So here is my dumb question - do I need to develop a problem before I could get use from your book?
Post by: J-KID on March 06, 2007, 11:39:00 PM
Post by: User Name on March 07, 2007, 07:11:00 AM
Post by: keith brimmer on March 09, 2007, 01:39:00 PM
Post by: hawgslayer on March 27, 2007, 07:23:00 AM
Post by: CMR on March 28, 2007, 11:01:00 AM
Post by: hawgslayer on March 30, 2007, 12:44:00 PM
Post by: donb on March 30, 2007, 01:00:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on March 30, 2007, 01:43:00 PM
Jay
Post by: CMR on March 30, 2007, 03:11:00 PM
Bought the book last night and read a little before my 3D league. My score went from 155 to 181.
Started to realize a few problems with my shooting!!!
I look forward to reading the rest of your book!
Post by: talkstosquirrells on March 31, 2007, 08:10:00 AM
Post by: Donnie on March 31, 2007, 11:18:00 AM
I had read so many positive things on this thread that I contacted Jay to find out more about his book. Instead of focusing on his book, Jay just shot me a quick PM with a few drills, and within 30 minutes... my shooting had drastically improved! In fact... I will now have to say that I had a very serious case of TP and really had no idea that I had it at all!!!! BUT!... I now know that I can also eliminate TP from my shooting!!!
After doing these drills for about 30 minutes... I was able to hold very steady, and it actually seemed like I was in "Total Control" of the shot. I began to relax simply because I "KNEW" that I could actually put the arrow where I was looking! I have always enjoyed shooting... but the fun REALLY came rushing back to me once I learned how to control TP!
VERY COOL!!!!!
Donnie
Post by: User Name on April 09, 2007, 09:10:00 PM
I'm hitting the "sapling" fairly regularly from 13 yds. The elevation is coming around just through habit. I'm still only focusing on the tape!
Now ya got me hooked!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/dstzn/ReaperStealth040.jpg)
Post by: J-KID on April 16, 2007, 08:14:00 AM
If all you do is fling arrows and things go bad you have try to figure out the problem if you can.
There's no substitution for a good plan!
CONFIDENCE BREEDS SUCCESS . . .
AND PREPARATION BREEDS CONFIDENCE!
Post by: Cecil on April 16, 2007, 02:44:00 PM
Post by: keith brimmer on April 19, 2007, 09:15:00 AM
sent you something today in the mail.
keith
Post by: J-KID on April 19, 2007, 09:33:00 AM
You're not the only hard headed one. I don't have tp but sometimes my control and accuracy isn't what it should be and I get a little down, then I think "SEVEN" and it all comes together.
SEVEN Reminds me of all the quality research and work I put into Chapter 7 in the book. I think, "duh, you wrote it idiot" and then I do the drills and I'm right back on track with total control. My stupidity never ceases to amaze me.
Post by: ROB TAYLOR on April 22, 2007, 11:43:00 PM
Just got your email with the four a-fore-mentioned drills. Just like everyone here has testified to....it works....and it works RIGHT NOW! Headed over to order the book right now. A cohesive practice plan....that's what I need. ;)
-Rob
Post by: Woodduck on April 25, 2007, 01:26:00 AM
in an easy to read/understand book that I recommend to all.
I hope I never have to read the chapter that you added in the revised edition, however.
May YOUR shots be, right on the button, too!
:archer:
Post by: rhobbs on April 28, 2007, 09:52:00 AM
Post by: LocDoc on May 09, 2007, 10:00:00 AM
Post by: J-KID on May 09, 2007, 10:25:00 AM
Post by: LocDoc on May 09, 2007, 10:54:00 AM
Post by: J-KID on May 09, 2007, 01:11:00 PM
Post by: LocDoc on May 09, 2007, 03:49:00 PM
Try: [email protected]
That should get it.
Sorry about the screw up.
Post by: Bamboozle on May 23, 2007, 10:23:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on May 23, 2007, 10:54:00 PM
Post by: 3blade on May 26, 2007, 10:22:00 AM
[email protected]
Thanks a million.
Manny
Post by: J-KID on June 22, 2007, 09:33:00 AM
Since I first posted this thread there have been literally hundreds of requests for help with target panic. I have only heard positive comments regarding the speed and degree to which the drills have remedied the problem.
One thing has come to light recently typically effecting those with the highest shooting ability and the worse cases of premature release or premature hold (target panic). The drills consistently cured the problem quickly, however, a year or so later the target panic began to resurface. After discussing the recurrence of target panic with shooters via email or by phone it has become obvious that the relapse is a result of stopping the drills altoghther once the symptoms of target panic are gone.
I understand how a person about ready to give up shooting because of target panic, then experiencing a total remission of the symptoms after using the drills, could fall back into their old routine (without the drills) that had proven successful for so long. It is important to emphasize the need to INTEGRATE THE DRILLS INTO ALL YOUR SHOOTING so that the target panic stays away.
Not only will this keep the associations from forming again, it will enhance your overall control and accuracy. Many professional archery coaches require shooters to do the drills even if they do not have target panic becuase of the positive benefits to overall control and accuracy.
The drills are totally effective as a reactive intervention for target panic, however, their real strength lies in their effectiveness as a proactive prevention to target panic and a tool to enhance accuracy and control.
I'd recommend that any new archer be instructed to do the drills from the beginning for this very reason.
Post by: J-KID on August 05, 2007, 01:35:00 PM
Post by: ksbowman on August 05, 2007, 07:38:00 PM
Post by: cvarcher on August 05, 2007, 10:00:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on August 05, 2007, 11:08:00 PM
I've heard that Fred Bear and Howard Hill both experienced tp at times and that they switched to shooting with the opposite hand. There were no associations so the tp was gone. When it came back they simply switched back to the natural side and the associations were gone for a while. If this is true, along with the fact that either could outshoot most, if not all of us with either hand, what does it tell us about the importance of the dominant eye?
Post by: j-p on September 06, 2007, 08:23:00 PM
Would you please send me your TP instructions?
Thank you for bettering the community.
[email protected]
Post by: J-KID on September 12, 2007, 04:58:00 PM
I'm pleased to have been of assistance to all those who sought help for their target panic. Thanks to those who posted, and will post, with their results. For every person that posted their were a dozen that didn't. It's kind of funny how excited people are to report that their target panic is gone, or much improved, from the drills but when I ask them to post their results I don't hear from some of them again. That's life I guess. Well, I was on Sabbatical from Christmas till last month and now I am far too busy to give free advice. Maybe next summer I'll be able to be your personal sports psychologist again for a few months.
THE GOOD NEWS!
The good news is that the information and drills for target panic are in my book INSTINCTIVE ARCHERY INSIGHTS: REVISED EDITION. So while it's not free it is a good deal to get rid of that dreaded target panic. Pick up your copy from Three Rivers Archery or Lost Nation Archery (TradGang Sponsors) today and good shooting.
And remember, "keep all your shots right on the button!" (Chapter 4)
Your brother with a bow,
Jay Kidwell
Post by: Allan Hundeby on September 24, 2007, 05:31:00 AM
Post by: J-KID on November 24, 2007, 04:41:00 PM
Post by: Big'n on December 03, 2007, 09:48:00 PM
Post by: khardrunner on December 04, 2007, 08:06:00 AM
THANKS!!
Kyle
Post by: J-KID on December 04, 2007, 11:16:00 PM
Kyle - I'm pleased you are seeing improvement and able to enjoy shooting again. Get the word out that there is a cure for TP.
Jay
Post by: khardrunner on December 06, 2007, 01:54:00 PM
I will be buying your book shortly, and I will not hesitate to spread the word. Great work!
Post by: centaur on December 07, 2007, 01:36:00 PM
Post by: GregD on December 07, 2007, 07:41:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on December 07, 2007, 09:50:00 PM
jay
Post by: Dirty Bill on January 27, 2008, 10:25:00 PM
Post by: peter c iacavazzi on January 28, 2008, 07:18:00 PM
Due to my busy travel schedule I have yet to get started on trying Jays advice. But I certainly plan to. Regardless what impressed me the most was this: Here is a man who gives his time,advice and assistance for free. That in of itself speaks volumes about the kind of man Jay obviously is!
Cheers to you Jay! Respectfully, Peter Iacavazzi
Post by: Cecil on February 06, 2008, 09:53:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on February 07, 2008, 06:09:00 AM
I'm pleased you are experiencing improvement in your shooting with my techniques. Being able to put the fun back in archery for you is a great reward for me.
Peter, make sure you let me know how you do when your life settles down and you can give the drills a try. I'd like to know the outcome.
Jay
Post by: BigCnyn on February 07, 2008, 04:34:00 PM
Post by: laddy on February 08, 2008, 02:58:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on February 08, 2008, 08:35:00 PM
So, I'd say if you can switch hands comfortably, it might just make you a more well rounded shooter.
Jay
Post by: J-KID on August 15, 2008, 06:23:00 AM
I've personally helped over 500 shooters fix this problem and there are many coaches using the techniques with the same results. TP can be beaten and you typically see results within 15 minutes.
ttt
Post by: Phurba on August 27, 2008, 06:48:00 PM
Mark
Post by: CJC on August 28, 2008, 06:41:00 AM
what is the name of your book?
Post by: J-KID on August 28, 2008, 06:51:00 AM
Jay
Post by: TradPaul on August 30, 2008, 05:48:00 PM
P.
Post by: Todd Hathaway on September 01, 2008, 04:44:00 PM
But then I go to compete, and suddenly I can't get on target, or I release before I want to, etc.
This is an issue that's never addressed....why does TP only show up (for some)during competition?
How does one fix that side of it?
How does one know if that side of it IS being fixed during practice if he has to wait until a competition to find out?
Post by: J-KID on September 01, 2008, 06:43:00 PM
If you watched any of the Olympics you probably heard the athletes talking about staying loose and relaxed. We always perform at our optimal level when we are loose and relaxed and for that same performance to be replicated in competition we must replicate the state of relaxation. This is very difficult to do in reality and it's one of the things that separates the best from the rest of us. So . . . one of the causes of your problem may be that the state of relaxation when you are practicing is not the same as it is when you are competing.
Another component to the problem is that some people have a shooting routine that is very different in competition. Target panic, a premature release for you, is learned through repetition and the the more exact that repetition the quicker it is learned. If you are more deliberate and precise during competition you are, in reality, engaged in a different behavior than when you practice. That is why routine is so important when you practice. It must replicate as much as possible what will happen in competition. Precision and focus must be the same or the practice session and the competition will not be the same.
So then, what can be done about it? First, make every effort to practice at least a little exactly as you will shoot in competition. That level of awareness is taxing during practice and you are probably better off doing a little at a time. Second, try to imagine that you are in competition when you practice. Imagine you are shooting the last arrow for a perfect round and feel the anxiety. You will in time learn to control it.
Finally, when you are competing try doing some of my drills during the actual competition. One here and another there. Sure people might say "what's he doing" until you start shooting better and then they will all be doing it. A golfer takes a few practice swings before he hits the ball or putts. A batter does the same. Why not you in competition. You are taking the remedy right to the problem and fixing it right then and there.
I have had plenty of shooters do the same in competition and none of them expressed any difficulties with the process. Actually, a few only do the drills in competition because that is where they experience the problem.
I hope this answered your questions.
Jay
Post by: Todd Hathaway on September 01, 2008, 09:32:00 PM
Thanks for the reply.
I agree with much of what you said. And at times I have tried valiantly to summon the feelings of tournament pressure in order to get used to it.
However I guess I am not blessed with a vivid enough imagination, since visualization has never worked for me. Countless self-help books rave about visualization and it's benefits, and I've tried many times to no avail.
But I keep on, and from time to time do as you suggested, trying my best to feel like I'm trying to make a winning shot.
But something in me will always know it isn't real, and not important to make the practice shot.
I like your suggestion about doing the drills during the competition, and have tried it, but maybe I need to put more effort into it.
Here is my problem with it: During the drill, I will at some point be in the position to make a great shot. The part of me that wants to win, will over-rule every other motivation and will execute the shot when everything is perfect (I know based on past experience).
This usually results in a terrible spasm or pluck as one part of me says "don't shoot, this is just a drill!" and the other part of me says "screw that, this'll be a great shot!"
The competitive side of me knows there are no second chances, and the next time I draw, I might not be as lined up as during the drill, so it will want to take advantage of the good shooting circumstances.
Batters and golfers have the benefit of not being in a position to execute a perfect hit while doing their practice swings.
If there were a way to mentally disconnect from the importance of the shot, I think I'd be all set.
But the true archer's paradox is: how do you not care about hitting the target when everything you are doing is for the sole purpose of hitting the target?
Post by: J-KID on September 01, 2008, 09:42:00 PM
Now, back to your situation. I get close to the ball with my practice swings when I chip from off the green. Sometimes I'll feel like the practice swings are so good I'll make that small adjustment and hit the ball. Sometimes it was alright and other times it wasn't. I stopped doing that because that is not a behavior I want to teach my brain. In other words: if you are doing the drills and decide to shoot - stop it!
Actually, there may be an option for you if you find your self-control is lacking. Pick a spot on the target away from where you will ultimately aim and do your drill on that spot. That way you won't be tempted to shoot because you are on the wrong spot.
Post by: Todd Hathaway on September 02, 2008, 07:57:00 AM
As always, thanks for your insight.
-Todd
Post by: AllenR on September 02, 2008, 09:38:00 AM
Another way to approach it is to re-define winning.
I've talked to many competition shooters (mostly compound, but that is irrelevant for this discussion) and when they are running into TP problems in competition, they have to take a step back and define winning as shooting a certain percentage of good shots in competition. They admit that they can't win when they are suffering from TP, so they step back and do what they have to to get control of it.
One excellent pro archer, George Ryals admits that he entered the pro ranks long before he was ready and developed TP from trying to win against the best archers around. Fortunately he got help from a good coach. One of his milestones was when he was able to shoot 50% good shots at a tournement. It took him several more years to get to the first tournement where he shot 100% without jerking the shot. He went on to win several national & international tournements.
The point is that TP can't be cured 100% overnight, especially when you can't duplicate the conditions that trigger it.
Figure our your ratio of good shots to bad during competition. Then the next time you compete set a goal to try to improve that by a realistic margin. Don't even worry about where the arrow lands. Not every good shot is an X. You know what a good shot is. Just keep track of how many you are able to execute.
One of the fastest ways to avoid winning archery is to focus on "winning". Even at the highest levels you have to focus on executing good shots. String enough good shots together and you have a winning score. To do that you have to focus on shot execution.
It's sort of the old "How do you eat an elephant?" question. Obviously, one bite at a time. A good archery shot is built one step at a time. Jay's techniques are excellent and WILL work, but they are not instant cures.
If you focus only on executing good shots and ignore the score, you will shoot winning scores much sooner.
Todd, this is not just my advice. It comes from George, Al Henderson, Terry Wunderle, Len Cardinale and several other great coaches and archers. I've suffered from exactly the same problem. I haven't beat it yet. Until this year, shoulder and elbow injuries have kept me from practicing enough. I'm finally up to 80 to 100 arrows a day. Usually I stop from mental exaustion, not physical. Focusing on execution is difficult and mentally tiring, but I see a huge improvement in my shooting. Fortunately, like most exercises, it gets easier the more I do it.
To win, focus on execution, not score.
Hope this helps,
Allen
Post by: Todd Hathaway on September 02, 2008, 04:38:00 PM
I knew where you were headed with that post, and was about to say how hard it is to simply convince oneself that good shots are better than good scores, but I didn't expect that idea of keeping track of good shot percentages.
That's a great idea, and creates a concrete goal as opposed to just some idealistic, unattainable attitude. I should carry a notepad at each shoot and mark the shots as to how much I was in control: good, medium, or poor.
Thanks.
-Todd
Post by: BLACK WOLF on September 02, 2008, 08:58:00 PM
Using the bale to focus on form takes away the need to think about accuracy and allows you to concentrate on developing and maintaining what a good shot feels like.
Ray ;)
Post by: J-KID on September 02, 2008, 10:57:00 PM
You said that "target panic can't be cured 100% overnight ..."
I've received over 40 emails from shooters requesting help with their various forms of tp this past week. Five of those came today. I can add those to the hundreds I've personally helped. Most have kept me informed on their results.
I think we need to remain aware that there are two groups of shooters. One group enjoys their backyard practice as they ready themselves for the upcoming hunting season. Shooters in this group do experience relief from tp very rapidly with my techniques. They often write that by the end of their first practice session using the drills they are back to normal with regard to control. Many are shooting better than they did pre-tp within a few weeks.
The second group focuses more on competition. While they tend to shoot more arrows I wouldn't say they are necessarily more serious about their shooting, but there are the additional components of pride, stress, anxiety etc. to deal with on a consistent basis. These shooters have tp and additional demons to deal with. You are correct that these people will find it more difficult to beat tp because of these additional components, or what you called "conditions that trigger it."
I think your advice is excellent regarding this second group.
Post by: AllenR on September 02, 2008, 11:27:00 PM
It's also a good example of how easy it is to become myopic about a subject. Every one that I shoot with at my club is very competitive and I tend to forget about those who enjoy archery on another level.
You are a great resource. Thank you for posting so freely and helping fellow archers.
Any chance of a chapter on the mental aspects of competitive archery in the next edition of your book?
Allen
Post by: J-KID on September 03, 2008, 11:27:00 AM
I just finished a book, "Parameters of the Soul: Toward a Christian Psychology" and am working on getting endorsements and finding a publisher. I'm getting the urge to start something else and I've always wanted to write a simple book on dog training.
My sports psychology attention has shifted over the past few years to understanding "the zone" and trying to figure out if there is a way to enter the zone at will. I've personally experienced it on a few occasions and couldn't miss when I was in it. It sounds like an impossible task but so did understanding and effectively treating target panic. Maybe we'll start another thread asking for others experience with the zone.
Post by: TradPaul on September 03, 2008, 06:59:00 PM
Well i gotta say that i didnt think that it would start working in the first session, but it did that and more in the first 40 minutes. I went through the phases as you had told them to me...let me stop here and explain something....
When i shoot at a target i get really anxious and just cant seem to hold that dang anchor to save my life unless i form a claw with my fingers which then results in a bad release and even then i cant hold it without flinching BAD. Well after going through the 1-4 phases that you laid out by the end i was having no anxious feeling of having to let go, i felt in control. i flinched a few time here and there but when i did, i didnt let go...it was like "flinch" ok there it went now it's time to focus on the target....Hold.....release. Now when i approach the target, at what ever distance, i can jump right in and do the " Move To and Away Drill (add release)" that puts me in the frame of mind that i need to be in, then after i do that a few times i can then just go right to anchor focus on the target and release naturally. So anyway i know i was kinda rambling, So thank you so much for taking the time to help, cant thank you enough.
P.
Post by: J-KID on September 03, 2008, 09:14:00 PM
Post by: BLACK WOLF on September 03, 2008, 11:54:00 PM
Jay,
I wanna thank you for writing that book. I believe it's one of the best archery books out there. I know it's helped me personally.
:clapper:
Ray ;)
Post by: TradPaul on September 04, 2008, 11:07:00 AM
P.
Post by: Jimbow39 on March 22, 2010, 11:22:00 AM
i hope you can help me. I know I have TP. I've had it for years and can't beat it. It is so bad now that I cannot reach full draw. I don't shoot the arrow early in my draw, but during my draw, when my thumb hits my chin, I freeze. I stand there at a little more than half draw, start shaking and cannot finish my draw. I end up shooting from this half draw position. I've been shooting for over fourty years and have had the problem for at least ten years in one form or another. I'm getting desertae. I love archery but it isn't as much fun anymore. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated.
JIM - [email protected]
Post by: J-KID on March 22, 2010, 06:07:00 PM
Post by: Gordy on March 22, 2010, 10:32:00 PM
Always good stuff. Thanks Jay, I know I can get back to shooting my heavy bows in time .... love the book.
Post by: bro-n-arrow on March 22, 2010, 10:41:00 PM
Post by: twigflicker on March 23, 2010, 08:34:00 AM
Give Jay's book a try... I know the ideas he teaches helped me tremendously... when they were done as directed... It's a cheap try..
I bought the original book from Jay years ago... he teaches where I went to school and I had taken some kids to visit... so I got to buy direct from him... then when he came out with the revised version with the target panic info... had to get it also... I'd suffered silently for years and finally decided to do something about it...
Jonathan
PS I've been cheating lately... using a clicker as I wasn't taking the time to do the drills that Jay recommends... turkey season over... I'll be getting the book back out...
Post by: Ostrorogi on March 23, 2010, 11:36:00 AM
Joke.
Why to panic. There is no target panic in my head, there is only decision in your mind that you will not hit the target or animal before you shoot. If you think like that than you allready decided that you will not hit the target...
Post by: LongStick64 on March 24, 2010, 08:26:00 PM
Post by: Jimbow39 on March 25, 2010, 09:05:00 PM
I've been working on what you sent me. Shot at a shot with a 34 pound bow yesterday. Still have problems with targets further than 15 yards. Will keep working on what you sent me. I was at least able to hit my anchor. JIM
Post by: kbaamigo on March 29, 2010, 10:17:00 AM
All I needed to do was re-progam my brain and Jay's simple progaram was amazing!
Thanks Jay,I owe you big time!
Kent
Post by: wulf on August 01, 2010, 07:11:00 PM
I read every post which is 11 pages long because I had to make sure that Mr Kidwell and his techniques weren't too good to be true! I've come to the conclusion that he and his techniques are for real and just ordered his book. Wishing everyone here goodluck!
Post by: Flingblade on August 02, 2010, 12:15:00 AM
Post by: J-KID on August 02, 2010, 06:47:00 AM
Once you are able to hold and hit anchor you should shoot a few arrows. You can begin with a drill then shoot, or shoot as you normally do. If you start to feel a little premature release or hold coming on do another drill or two then shoot a few arrows. The idea is to do more drills and less shooting in the beginning and gradually get to where you do more shooting and fewer drills. That process may take place in a single practice session or over the course of a week depending on your specific tendencies. You should get to a point where you shoot and drill at a 10 to 1 ratio even if you no longer feel the need for the drills. A few drills a day keeps the TP away.
Post by: Flingblade on August 02, 2010, 01:57:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on August 02, 2010, 04:29:00 PM
You did all the hard work. I just pointed you in the right direction.
Shooting with your trad league will be excellent. If you feel any doubts sneaking in, do a drill, get that button on the target and show them how it's done. There is hope for all those suffering from tp and you are proof of that.
Post by: Gene R on August 06, 2010, 07:56:00 PM
Post by: S.C. Hunter on August 06, 2010, 11:46:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on August 07, 2010, 12:08:00 AM
What we are dealing with when we speak of target panic is very similar to what many great golfers experience, causing some to leave the game. It's a putting malady called the "yips." It's a premature stroking of the ball before the backstroke has been completed. It's involuntary and seemingly uncontrollable. The long putter has recently been a help in that regard. You shoot handguns so you would understand the concept of the flinch where a persons hand begins to move up and back (premature response to recoil) even before the projectile has ignited or with an empty chamber. In archery, there is a premature hold before the target can be acquired (where you lock up just off target), a premature release before anchor or a premature draw where you can't get to anchor because it feels like you are shooting a 120# bow.
Post by: Earl Jeff on August 08, 2010, 09:57:00 AM
Post by: Cecil on August 08, 2010, 10:48:00 AM
Post by: hunterbob on August 11, 2010, 05:39:00 PM
Post by: Flingblade on August 14, 2010, 11:41:00 PM
Post by: bowbean on September 02, 2010, 11:28:00 AM
Post by: J-KID on September 02, 2010, 06:32:00 PM
Sent you a PM.
Post by: 50@25 on September 18, 2010, 01:35:00 AM
Been shooting for 3 years.. Recently started with TP--.. Very frustrating.. My problem is premature release..usually used to anchor quite well until about 3 months ago..usually have trouble when shooting in 3D tournaments..
The last shooting of the year is next weekend...
If possible ...Please help..
Post by: J-KID on September 18, 2010, 07:48:00 AM
Post by: SaMbO2 on September 18, 2010, 09:31:00 AM
Ive been shooting for 12 years and i get TP off and on and ive never really stopped it so i made my form kinda around it but now im starting to not get to full draw, but the main problem is i cant hold the bow at full draw.
please if you could help me that would be great.
Post by: brian brooks on September 18, 2010, 11:44:00 AM
Post by: J-KID on September 18, 2010, 02:54:00 PM
Post by: 50@25 on September 26, 2010, 10:01:00 PM
Post by: anchorman on September 27, 2010, 07:59:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on September 27, 2010, 08:16:00 PM
Post by: barley40 on October 01, 2010, 01:14:00 AM
Post by: J-KID on October 04, 2010, 05:43:00 AM
Post by: Ranger58 on November 19, 2010, 02:28:00 AM
Post by: Bowwild on November 20, 2010, 03:10:00 PM
Post by: Ray Hammond on November 20, 2010, 03:16:00 PM
for some that's easy to do on targets, and oh so much more difficult when a 250 lb boar is staring you in the face at 20 yards.
Then the breathing gets fast and heavy, the blood starts boiling, and its "hurry up and SHOOOOOT before he runs off"!
I've seen it happen to the best of 'em.
Jay, I've struggled with IT at different times.... and its usually when I practice too little or TOO MUCH.
HELP!
Post by: J-KID on November 20, 2010, 04:14:00 PM
I sent you an email.
Post by: Ryan Sanpei on November 22, 2010, 07:03:00 PM
Are you still offering help?
Thanks,
Ryan
Post by: J-KID on November 22, 2010, 07:12:00 PM
Email sent.
Post by: bgremill on November 22, 2010, 11:24:00 PM
Post by: Jim Keller on November 23, 2010, 02:16:00 AM
Thanks, Jim
Post by: J-KID on November 23, 2010, 06:18:00 AM
Sent you an email.
Brent,
I'm just glad to be able to share something I know with you that helps you enjoy your shooting more.
Post by: bowbenderman on December 09, 2010, 08:26:00 PM
Post by: J-KID on December 09, 2010, 08:56:00 PM
Post by: zetabow on December 09, 2010, 09:12:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by bowbenderman:Even though my TP was in 2001 I still have this worry that it will suddenly rear it's ugly head again, I still do my routines to keep the TP beast at bay.
Is there really a premanent cure for target panic?
My biggest challenge last year was final shoot off at the Fita 3D world champs, a 1000+ spectators,Tv cameras 3m from your face and very tough head to head competition, it was the most nervious I've ever been but once I stepped onto the stake it was just me, the target and my shot sequence, everything else was blanked out and I kept the TP beast at bay :)
It would have been my worst nightmare, having a sudden attack of TP in front of all those spectators.
Some days shooting nothing and other days feels a real uphill struggle keeping confidence\\control, although I feel the beast is always lurking the shot routine and Bale exercises keep it at bay 98% of the time.
Post by: Footed Shaft on December 09, 2010, 09:23:00 PM
I had it under control for the past few years but i now feel a "panick" feeling just before the shot goes off. I feel like i have very little "control" of the shot any more :(
Post by: J-KID on December 09, 2010, 10:00:00 PM
If you can handle that pressure you can handle anything!
Footed shaft,
Can you be more specific about what you mean by out of control?
Post by: Footed Shaft on December 09, 2010, 10:41:00 PM
Post by: zetabow on December 10, 2010, 02:40:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by J-KID:Exactly, now I've been through that pressure I often recall that moment to remind myself what I'm doing at the moment isn't as difficult, it helps with my confidence. I've always tried to find some positive in my shooting, even when it's no very good.
Zetabow,
If you can handle that pressure you can handle anything!
My shooting hasn't been so great this year, no TP, just not being in the groove with my shooting, best I could manage was 2nd at IFAA world Field champs this year.
Bill it sounds like youre not following you shot sequence all the way to conclusion, your worried about making a bad shot.
For me it's all about the shot sequence, I judge my shots by how well they were executed and not the end result, my subconsious soon figured out if I follow my shot routine it will be a good shot. A case of too high expectations and too low confidence, once they're happy with each other (at a sunconsious level) the shots just happen with no real effort.
Post by: J-KID on December 10, 2010, 06:22:00 AM
Sent you a pm.
Quote
Originally posted by zetabow:Excellent!
For me it's all about the shot sequence, I judge my shots by how well they were executed and not the end result, my subconsious soon figured out if I follow my shot routine it will be a good shot. A case of too high expectations and too low confidence, once they're happy with each other (at a sunconsious level) the shots just happen with no real effort.