Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: madness522 on January 16, 2007, 09:21:00 PM
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Since there are no trad shops near here and no one I hunt with shooting trad I have no idea if my form is good or not. The arrows seem to go where I'm looking....most of the time.
How is my form?
see the video here. (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v201/madness522/shooting%20clips/?action=view¤t=Clip4.flv)
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looks purty good to me.
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Well, you could use a better cap. And you are quick. That is fine for hunting, and I'm guessing that is your main interest. But you don't snap shoot; you have a brief pause, just make sure you use it to refine your aim if you need to. And you shoot to a regular rhythem, which is good for hunting archery. I like the length of your arrows and the glove you have chosen. I believe it is the Damascus brand.
I have only one concern: you shoot three fingers under and have a rather high anchor. The butt of your arrow is high. That is fine, especially for hunting ranges. But I cannot tell from these pictures whether the butt of the arrow is under your eye or off to the side. It really should be under. If it is not you will need a form change to make it so. These vary mainly depending upon the shape of an archer's face.
If it is under I would not change a thing. If it is not you have some work to do. Let us know if we can help.
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Looks to me that you're not pulling enough with your back muscles. Which isn't getting your eblow back far enough and giving you proper alignment.
Your elbow at full draw/anchor should be where it's ending up after your release(follow thru). Don't lean forward or tip your head forward. This will get your elbow back,give you a longer draw,hence a bigger power stroke(more horse power behind your arrows),but more importantly,proper alignment.
my opinion from what I see on your video....
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Thanks for the input guys.
Curt, if I pull back farther I loose my anchor point. I tried to find one as repeatable and comfortable as the middle finger tip at the corner of mouth. Any idea on where to try for a new anchor point? I'll try getting my elbow back at full draw this evening without leaning forward and no tipping my head and see what happens.
Steve, you say you're concerned about the high anchor. Can you explain that a little more? Is a high anchor point not a good thing? So far I only shot out to 30 yards a time or two and I hold the arrow point dead on at 30 yards. I can't imagine shooting farther than that at any type of game. Yep, that is a Damascus glove and yesterday was the inaugural flights of those arrow (first ones I have made).
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What Guru says is spot on. You are dipping your head forward as you draw. In other words you are shortening your drawlength. If you keep your head up, you will find that your elbow will move further back for you to reach your reference point. This gives you a longer drawlength, better use of the back muscles and less chance of injury from a misalaigned neck.
The only concern I have when I see high anchor points, is one of safety. I've seen a plastic nock explode in someone's face and cut the bottom eyelid. Too close to the eye for my liking.
Graham
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Yes...not getting full extention like Guru said.
I also anchore middle in the corner, but I drag the corner back till my thumb base slides behind my jaw as sort of a second anchor....and this gets my elbow back to the 6 O'Clock position creating proper alignment and back tension....
It looks as though your elbow is pointing much closer to 5 O'clock than 6.
You want to be aligned like this........
(http://tradgang.com/terry/form2clock.jpg)
Not like this......
(http://www.tradgang.com/shooting/bernard704.jpg)
Here's something else that may help.....With all the energy going toward and away from the target from proper back tension and alignment, you also get the added benifit of a good release and follow through, and a steady bow arm.
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Elbow position and bow arm. (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/tgshot91.wmv)
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I too use the thumb base hooked behind my lower jaw as a second anchor. I think my head leaning forward is causing the short draw and elbow not being at 5 oclock. Thanks for the pics Terry, they say more than words can describe.
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The results are in. I think I am over bowed. The first six arrows at full draw with my head back and right elbow at six o'clock flew like darts and grouped well. The next six didn't fly or group as well and I had a hard time keeping my head back and right elbow at six o'clock. The next six I was right back where I was in the video. The group was good but a few of them had the wobbles. I really like the Mikuta at 57# but I think it's just too much bow for me. Guess I'll have to sell a wheel bow and by a lighter curve. Maybe something closer to 50#
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Madness
You may not have to sell that bow....
The way you get to pulling heavier bows is...to pull heavier bows. I would start with the one you have. Pull it to full draw (without an arrow) and hold it for say 1 second. Let down. Repeat for sets of 10. Do that periodically in the evening. Treat the bow as a piece of exercise equipment. As you move up in your ability to handle it, increase the hold time, or increase the # of reps from 10 to 15, or decrease the wait time between reps.
Many folks don't realize that a bow makes a great exercise tool and all you have to do to get stronger is use it more often.
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Otto, I don't want to sell it that would hurt my feelings! I would sell one of my wheeled bows without any hesitation at all. I have a new Outback all rigged and ready to go that I would sell and probably order a new Bob Lee or find a deal on a used Brack/Morrison/BW/or something along those lines. I love to shoot and not being able to shoot with the proper form is only making this learning curve longer and harder. So many decisions, so little time.....
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Good advice Otto...I totally agree!
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Otto is correct....if you 'work out' with that bow every other day 3 sets of 10 to full draw for the 1st week, and move to 4 sets of 10 the 2nd week, you will be man handling that 57# bow somewhere in the 3rd week. Just make sure you warm up a bit with 4 or 5 slow half draws before you start your reps.
All you have to do is shoot regularly...but a lighter bow is not a bad idea....And you could do your shooting with it while training with the 57#er. I'm sure the shot 'felt' better with that alignment and back tension huh?
I drop down about 5#s every Nov. while in the tree stands when it gets cold, and move back up after the season when I'm doing a lot of ground hunting and its easy to stay warm doing a lot of walking. I just start drawing my heavier bows like I stated above, and I'm right back in no time.
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Well, let's wait a minute. Your anchor is a bit high. But that is not a bad thing as you have confirmed my guess that you are interested only in hunting archery and shoot only out to 30 yards. You lean into your shot and do not have a long draw but those facts also are fine for hunting. At that draw length you do not appear to me to be overbowed. If your eye is over your arrow, you are mainly interested in hunting and short range 3d events, you may have just the style you need.
Me, I shoot mainly targets and have a much more upright style and longer draw, as some above have described. If that is what you want you need a form overhaul and a lighter bow.
For hunting and 3D to about 45 yards I like your style just as it is.
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better question,,,how are you hitting?
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Proper alignment will serve you better as a shooter, no matter if you are shooting targets or hunting. It will make your shot more forgiving in the bowhunter's world of not so perfect shots, positions, and terrain.
It will give you a better release, steadier bow arm, and less torque on the bow and string. I personally don't think you need a form overhaul, just full extention to proper back tension.
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Thanks for all the replies guys!! I'll try to respond to them all here. Steve, the arrow is under my eye (most of the time). There are times, especially after a bunch of shooting my form gets sloppy and I don't quit as soon as I should. Kawika, my groups are decent to pretty good. The biggest problem and the reason for the vid is the number of fliers. I can shoot a tight group of six arras at 15 years and the next I have a flier or two. The real problem became more evident that something wasnt' right when I was goofing around and backed up to 25 and 30 yards to shoot. There were way too many arrows barrel rolling and not flying like darts. I did mark the arrows and it wasn't the same ones flying poorly. My next guess was the reason for the poor flight was happening behind the bow. In watching the whole video and not just the spliced one I linked to it appears that my draw, anchor and release is very very close to being the same on every shot. In the 15 shots I have on video there is only one where it looks like I peeked or pulled my head up and the arrow was released.
Terry, I agree that learning how to do it right from the get to is the best way to learn. My competetive nature drives me to be the best I can be at whatever I do. So I want to learn the right way. The shots with full extension do feel much better and the arrows are straighter in the target and did seem to fly better but it would be better to see their flight at 25-30 yards.
Thanks again for all of your input it is greatly appreciated!! Barry
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Smart man Barry to recognize that you do need to do it right....and that you might even need a lighter bow.
Good form knows not whether the target is paper or fur, good form executes a good shot, period. Now, you can have good form in any number of 'styles'....and that's the great thing about our sport, we can all personalize our own style to fit our hunting personality.
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Man, so glad I read this post..Terry, your pictures posted of correct alignment helps me tremendously! You hear how to do it, but seeing it like that really clicked with me. Thanks..
Steph.
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Terry, great pictures about right and wrong form! Since so many people are reading this thread and learning from it, could you explain about the stance (open vs. closed), and position of the feet?
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GrayRhino,
I hope this comes across right....
Everyone has their 'perfect shot position' for their perfect shot that is the main shot we practice with. Everything is level, balanced, and wonderful.....
Then we enter the woods, and we aren't guaranteed that perfect shot....the terrain and game dictate, and we must adapt.
Therefore, that's why I always say that form is from the waist up. If you have the 'magic T', you can take that normal perfect shot with you by bending at the waist for different cant angles, uphill or downhill, or rotating left or right.
So, 'open stance' or 'closed stance' to ME is a personal preference, and a comfortable position for the 'perfect shot position' that we practice and always wish we could have in the woods.
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WELL PUT, TERRY GREEN, NOW IF I COULD JUST DO IT RIGHT.
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Not to high jack your thread Barry but this has gotten me interested in useing back tension I never have. How should back tension feel should you even notice it or does it just happen?
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I had never used it before either and the first couple times I could really feel it the next day. But that was probably more from shooting way too much in one session. I think also coming from a wheel bow background it was something that I had to concentrate on rather than it just happening. I don't really notice the back tension now it just occurs as a natural part of the draw.
If you haven't done it yet it would be a good idea to have someone record you shooting from different angles. It will help you see what your shot really looks like not what you think it looks like. This will allow a visual comparasion to others who are really good shots to your shot. I did this and it really opened my eyes as far as how it was supposed to be done. The down side is I had been shooting with bad form but had gotten to the point where it worked for me and I could shoot out to 20 yards comfortably and confidently. When I started correcting my form issues it really whacked out the way I was shooting. I wasn't comfortable or confident past 12 yards. It is all starting to come back together now. I was out shooting and hitting the target everytime at 30 and 35 yards yesterday.
Bottom line is, and I can't remember who said this, to find a form/style that works for you and stick with it.
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Yea that is what has happend to me I tried back tension and I missed sevral times I wasnt confident with it so I went back to a "dead release" and that seems to work for me.
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Guys.......when you work on changing part of your form....its usually best to not think about aiming. You gotta grove it in 1st...only think about what you are working on. And it wont happen over night...you gotta stick with it.
Gotta learn the shot before you can make the shot ....make sense?
Good for you maddness......correcting your form gained you greater accuracy at longer distance....means you'll be real confident at that 20 yards now. :thumbsup:
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Originally posted by 2Blade:
Yea that is what has happend to me I tried back tension and I missed sevral times I wasnt confident with it so I went back to a "dead release" and that seems to work for me.
You still have to use back tension whether your release is static or not.
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What BobCo said....
A few shots aint gonna cut it.....you gotta stick with it if you are going to gain accuracy and confidence by getting your shot aligned properly.
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Im not really sure what back tension is supost to feel like to me it felt like back tension more so in my shoulder running down to my rips could someone get in depth or what its supost to feel like? Its hard when your self taught ive read its supost to be on both sides of your body ive only been using my release side not my bow arm side.
Terry I seen your video of you shooting and your form looked very easy to do and smooth I just wish I could get that when I tried I found myself plucking more so then pulling through the shot.
Again Madness not trying to high jack here but im trying to learn hopefully your not offended.
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2blade, have you read TBM this month? There is a pretty good article in it which may benefit you.
It is a developed feel. But in short, try to hold a silver dollar between your shoulder blades while holding your arms at shoulder length in direct line with shoulders. Also, try doing the same as if you were holding a bow at full draw (squeeze the silver dollar).
For me, it is impossible to get my elbow (draw arm)in proper alignment without using back tension. Notice, I didn't say anchor. I can get to anchor with my elbow not in proper alignment, but I'll usually pluck the string upon release. The shot will usually go left (I shoot right).
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No I havent read TBM I dont get that magazine but ill try to do it today. How long should it take me to get good grouping this way?
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Just wanted to say that this is a GREAT thread. As someone just getting back into shooting a recurve after 30-years, it has given me a lot to think about and to practice.
Thanks to all.
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I agree with everything Otto and Terry have said. How important is proper form and using back tension? I have heard too many folks say they never use it! To those folks, and especially those of you that have a high elbow, or have an elbow position like the photo Terry posted, are you having any shoulder or elbow pain using that style?
I can tell you from experience that it is in your best interest to use biomechanically efficient form. It will vary a little from person to person but has essentially been the same for a very long time - you don't think they pulled those English war bows w\\o back tension, do you?
A few years ago I had a very busy summer and didn't get to shoot as often as I liked. I wasn't fully conditioned to shoot my nearly 70# hunting bows and didn't realize my form was off as I pounded arrow after arrow trying to get caught up. I was consistently hitting my anchor point but the elbow was flying out there... very little back tension....like the picture. I developed a sore shoulder and later a SHARP PAIN IN MY SHOULDER when I tried to draw..... it cost me a season as I could not even draw a 15# kids bow. I had to take the season off and came back SLOWLY after the new year. I still love my heavy bows, but I'm looking at getting something in the 55# range to complement the heavier ones.
Steve
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sometimes ny form slacks a bit and things go all haywire..'specially when I DONT get those back muscles into play
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Fred Asbell's article in TBM explains back tension better than anything I have ever read.
Terry's "clock" diagram is excellent also.
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I try and think of perfect form from the waist up...I try and keep my legs out of the equation. You never know from what position you will draw from in the woods.
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Legs on slippery, uneven ground,tangled in brush...not part of the form equation
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n180/RogerNorris/LilFavorite015.jpg).
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Have a look at this link for a great training device that has been mentioned before in other threads. For me it has been a very valuable piece of kit that opened my eyes to proper back muscle usage/tension.
http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/FMaster/formaster_exercises.htm
Brian
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Hi. I am VERY new to this club as well as to traditional archery. I have hunted with a compound for years but because of a motor vehicle accident and several shoulder surgeries I have had to sell my compound. Luckily my best friend, Northernfisher is sending me down his long bow. I have tried to shoot a recurve awhile back but I was actually afraid that the bow would break. Probably a "newcomer fear" How far should I actually pull it back? Is there a distance that could be considered TOO long?
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Hey guys new member and shooter. Reading all of this is really helping me. Thanks for all the info.