Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Arrow4Christ on January 19, 2007, 01:54:00 PM
-
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/th_DSCF1492.jpg) (http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/?action=view¤t=DSCF1492.flv)
Hey guys! My shooting has improved lately but my form is worse than I thought. I decided to video myself today and would like to know your opinions on whats going wrong. My biggest problem is arrows hitting to the left, it happens a lot. I can see my bow arm collapsing and would like to know what you think is going wrong and what other problems I may have. Thanks!
Craig
Unfortunately the clips were deleted by the topic starter. It was a great contrast from where he started and where he ended up.
-
I'd rather see you shoot from the other side....but here's what I see from this angle....
You are droppin your bow arm, and your drawing arm elbow is also ending up lower on your follow through.....which tells me your are somehow not aligned properly - which is causeing you to torque your bow - and causing a release that looks 'violent'. There's a lot of movement after you drop the string.
Not sure but it looks like your bow hand is much higher than your bow shoulder...which could be the reason for all the stuff I listed above.
-
This is what I 'think' I'm seeing....and the reason you have a lot of movement on the shot. You are trying to hold on target more with your muscles than bone structure.
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/form3.JPG)
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/form4.JPG)
-
I just looked again...and your bow arm is dropping even before you release....look close, the bow starts dropping a split second before the arrow moves....there is so much muscle stress and/or torque that you are getting a downward movement even before the string clears your fingers. Again, that's what I 'think' I see.
-
I tried to align my bow arm with the shoulder and I think I made it worse :( Here's a video from the other side...what do you suggest I do to correct the problem?
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/th_DSCF1508.jpg) (http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/?action=view¤t=DSCF1508.flv)
-
You are collapsing/panicing/flinching/peaking...and dropping your entire aligment before you release. Look at where your string hand is when your elbow goes back....its at your chest!!! You are releasing a long way away from your anchore.
I think this is a mental issue with your release. You are throwing everything away and toward the ground before you even let go. I have no idea how you are directing that energy in that direction without mental influence.
-
It looks to me like the cant of your bow is never steady. Seems to be moving left and right during the entire shot process.
-
Graig, a couple of things that may help. First off the basics. Pick a spot... aim small, miss small. As Terry pointed out, the bow arm is dropping and that's a killer. What I see is that you basically just pull the string. There is no pushing action with the bow arm. Your bow arm is locked in position before you even pull the string. You begin by slightly leaning forward with the locked arm and then slightly straighten back as you pull. By doing this you are not pushing to the target. If you are going to do a swing type draw like that you need to be pushing as you are pulling. Concentrate on pushing towards the target as you release thus keeping your bow arm up and directed towards the target as a follow-through motion. I think this is another reason why, as Terry pointed out, your draw elbow goes so high. It's simply doing all the work so you are over compensating. You need to push-pull using your back muscles while following through with your bow arm and the left hand should draw straight back slightly through the anchor upon release. These are just some points that have helped me. Others may have a different opinion but it's worth a try.
Also, you shoot from the wrong side, LOL, just kidding there. It will get better but only by practicing better form. Over compensation is sometimes a sign of being overbowed. A light bow really helps when working on your form!
Good Luck, :wavey:
-
What Terry and Al said! If you don't mind a suggestion, go do some form practice at point blank range with your eyes closed. At first don't even release the arrow. Just come back to full draw with your eyes closed, mentally check your form, and let down slowly. Create a mental checklist: foot position, angle to target, grip on bow, bow arm position, draw fingers hook-on, draw straight back, firm anchor position, back muscles trying to pull shoulder blades together, drawing elbow as far back as you can get it. If you can't come to full draw and hold it for several seconds comfortably, you have a clue. You are overbowed and need something lighter in draw weight for now. You can move back up later.
Once you have all that down, take the next step. Close enough to the target that you can't miss, look at the target to align yourself, close your eyes and come to full draw. Hold that position for a few moments then relax your drawing hand and let the string slip away. Your hand should not move away from your face. It should collapse by your ear.
I know we have Gangers in Oregon. Anyone want to help this young man out with some coaching?
John
-
Craig, Terry is right on with all he said.Major collapse before release!
No push/pull....instead of your bow and release hand going away from each other,they're coming together before you release and then causing a violent reaction the other way after release.
You seem to draw the bow easy enough.I think you are conciously releasing hence you're anticipating
Since you're left handed like me,take a look at these clips.I'm certainly not saying I have perfect form,but it works for me. Notice the relaxed smoothness at and after release.....hope it helps.....
http://tradgang.com//noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000031
-
a relatively simple way to fix a collapse or creeping is to think about your elbow and nothing else. Concentrate on driving that elbow back throughout the process including your release, everything else will start to come in line (though maybe not alignment that'll be something you'll have to work on seperately). You can use this on a pull through release as well as a dead release.
By thinking about your elbow you are really training yourself to use your back muscles throughout the shot and by continously pulling that elbow back you are constantly pushing forward through the hole game. You'll get your push pull, you'll loose your collapse, it will/should help with yoru form over all. This is just the beginning!!! Learn to relax everything but your string, then again on the bow side, just relax, as was said you look awfully tense!!!!
And I'd highly second the shooting for form. SPend weeks at it if possible. Takes a few days to get your thinker thinking positively or just whats happening (getting comfortable with it), then on to where you can identify what you are doing, make the decision where its right or wrong and fix it. You'd be amazed at how fast you come around!!!!
Your stance kinda looks funny too, maybe kick your back leg out (forward) slightly? Dunno hard to tell in the angle, might just be trickery. Looks like a closed stance though the way things are in both videos. Mock draw once. Pick a spot somewhere to "aim" at, go through the motions of drawing without the bow, come to full draw and look down, see where your back foot is at. Mine is right below my draw hand, front foot would be at the 11 oclock.
-
A4C, Just a suggestion, so far what everyone is saying is true, Terry is right on, but you are on a site where you may get a whole lot of opinions, each one has their own way, to a point. I would suggest, to get someone that can be there in person. That can stand behind you , on the side of you , and coach you on the spot, this way they can tell you exactly,what you are doing wrong, and correct it right now. I'm not saying doing it on the Trad Gang is wrong, nor am I saying thier replys are wrong. Great group of people, and very helpful, but I think someone in person would be a great help. GOOD LUCK, John
-
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/th_DSCF1551.jpg) (http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/?action=view¤t=DSCF1551.flv)
Sorry about the bad light in this last vid...I feel like the form is a lot better...Still need to work a little on the release and my elbow (my bow arm goes where it goes). I think that'll get fixed quick though...what do you guys think?
-
It looks like you come to full draw then arch your head and shoulders back slightly before release. I wouldn't think this additional movement would be a good thing. I may be dead wrong, just an opinion.
-
Hi Craig, I think it is time for the blindfold! Get up close to your target...real close. Close your eyes and concentrate on relaxing, drawing back to anchor, and releasing, hold the bow after release and see if moved. Keep doing this until you feel smooth and deliberate. You seem to be anticipating the release. Your release should just happen. You don't want to be thinking, "Ok, now I'm going to release!" That's where you can get in trouble with target panic and getting jumpy. So, hold the bow, relax, draw to anchor, release...When you start back opening your eyes don't be too concerned with where the arrow hits. Be aware of your form and release. When it starts feeling more natural and smooth then go for accruacy. Oh, by the way make sure you have a good back drop when shooting with your eyes closed! Don't want to shoot the neighbors horse. Good luck. Is that the Border you're shooting?
-
You guys are right...I am DEFINITELY saying, "Ok, now release!"...is the "eyes closed" method the best way to practice that? cause its hard for me not to. yes that's the Border...
-
Craig, I see in another post that your 340's aren't stiff enough and you're looking for 300's.What kind of poundage are you shooting, point wt, and how long are your arrows? I have a feeling this might be part of your problem....
.... you need to push with your bow and instead of creeping forward at your anchor point(starting to collapse), you need to keep pulling back thru your anchor.
-
The bow is 61# pulled to 29.5"...the point weight is 200 grains with a 31" arrow (I foot them with aluminum shafting so I have to leave them a little long.) bareshafted they are weak.
-
what do you suggest I do to stop releasing conciously? I tell myself when I get to full draw "RELEASE!" and that's when my bow arm moves. It's tough for me to stop doing that. Suggestions?
-
Craig, keep those back muscles pulling together through the release...don't collapse them. Like Curt said pull through the shot. Push with bow arm, pull with string hand.
-
WOOHOO! SUCCESS! I watched your videos Guru and tried your shooting style. Boy am I glad I did. After 100 shots with a light bow with my eyes closed and practicing this form, I have conquered the problem! Notice in this one that movement is after the release and simply a push towards the target. I'm shooting GREAT too! THANKS EVERYONE!
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/th_DSCF1599.jpg) (http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/?action=view¤t=DSCF1599.flv)
-
lots better, still look slike some collapse/creep and you're still shooting with a really closed stance...open it up a bit more.
Keep pulling through the shot at full draw and you'll stop that flinch if you will. Still looks like you're trying to release instead of letting it happen!!!
keep pulling through the shot (can do this with a dead release) and releax your hand!!!
-
You're right about the closed stance...if you look closely, the bow is being pushed forward TOWARDS the target, and it's after the release, when the tension is let go (I was jerking before I let go before). I don't think I'm telling myself to release anymore...does it really look like I'm creeping forward?
-
I dont think it's creeping as much as you are collapsing at your shot. Ie not continuing to pull through the shot at the release. That doesnt mean your hand goes back, it does mean your hand doesnt go forward as it still looks like in the video! Keep pulling (drive your elbow back is all you have to think) and just relaxed your string hand.
I have to say its tons better though!!!
The reason I say collapse is when you let go, your hand is still moving forward and if an uhoh reaction you pull it back.
Try zooming in so we can see from the top of your head to your waste and still get everything at full draw....that last video was kind of grainy.
Dunno how to explain it any better...someone will jump all over it and either fix ya right up or tell me what I'm saying is hogwash LOL, either way it's a learning experience for all.
-
The tip to shut yoru eyes for awhile works wonders!!! give it a week or two and you'll see.....
-
Yes, much better than your earlier videos. But you seem to be twisting your torso towards the target. Try to keep your upper body at ninety degrees to the target and look down over your bow shoulder. What you are in effect doing at the moment is making yourself shortdraw and not allowing your bow shoulder to get back far enough to produce back tension. When you have shot your 100 arrows, what aches? your arm or your back? I suspect it is your arm, which means you're not using your back muscles enough. Keep pushing back with your shoulder. You're getting there, and with a bit more work you'll be form perfect.
Graham
-
Thanks guys...all I've gotten is encouragement on this site, and i appreciate it! I will try all suggested...I'll do another video soon...I don't know if you guys noticed, but it looks like the movement may actually be being caused by me putting a little too much heel into the bow...could that be the issue with the bow arm? I need to work on back tension and a dead release a little more...thanks for the encouragement everyone!
-
Cant help you on the heel down being in excess.
But I just want to clarify you dont have to use a dead release!!! It's probably the harder of the two releases to really get good at, VS pulling through. I'm sure you've seen byron shoot, tha twould be pulling through the shot. where your string fingers end up on your shoulder after you let go. Either way works good. I'm torn to do the harder of the two personally, guess it's my nature to fail LOL!
-
It's hard to get a pure dead release. Some can do it though. Personally, I find that both of my arms tend to do the same thing upon release. It's hard for me to break that. Don't really want my bow arm moving much. What I try to do in practice is limit the motion in my release arm or should I say my release elbow. This helps keep a stiffer bow arm. I find though even when I try to limit the motion in the release arm, my finger tips still touch my shoulder. The follow through in the release arm and elbow is just not exaggerated.
Hopefully I explained this correct. It's one of those "I know what I'm saying but do you" sort of thing.
-
You have got to develop more back tension. Think of squeezing your shoulder blade together. Do this a bunch of times without the bow. Now pick up the bow and do it AT and THROUGH your release.
-
Still looks like your "Letting go" of the string. Your goal is to pull through the release. In other words, when you anchor act like your trying to draw past your anchor, but let the string slip through your fingers as you do. If you do it right, instead of your hand remaining at the side of your face, it should carry on behind you when you release.
-
Faith in Flight, look at my new "Need help with my form part 2" thread...it has a new video in it.
-
Hi Craig, looks like you are getting a lot of really good instruction here. The main thing that everyone keeps coming back to is you are collapsing at the shot. This is a very difficult thing to explain, but there may be a way for you to fix it. When you can get this fixed, your release will fix itself. Do this. Pick a spot on the target and pull your bow up with your bow arm as if you were getting ready to draw on it. Don't draw your bow, just pick up your arm. Now, look where your bow arm shoulder is at. Chances are it is pointing to the left of where you are looking at on the target. Now move your shoulder into position until it is lined up with your bow and that spot on the target. This is where your shoulder needs to be when you are at full draw. Trust me, I've had this problem too. This is why you are shooting left all the time. You are not fully extended, and your alignment is off. When you release, your bow arm jerks to the left. If you can get this allignment problem corrected, your release will fix itself, and you will have less muscle strain. The shot will feel much better and you will enjoy shooting your bow more.
-
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/th_DSCF1784.jpg) (http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/?action=view¤t=DSCF1784.flv)
-
Craig, that last video sure looks alot better. You're getting somewhere. Make sure you really pull through on your release so that your release hand ends up behind you, instead of to the side of you. I can really see some improvement though. Good job.
-
It still looks as though your are releasing DOWN instead of BACK.
-
Definately better, how is your consistency...are you happier with where the arrows are ending up?
Two things still, head brought to anchor still instead of anchor brought to head. And as Jon and Terry mentioned, it looks like you are not following through with back tension...the down motion of the hand instead of back is indicative of this.
-
Here are the new videos. My accuracy is Ok, but I know the source of all my accuracy problems at this point. My sight window is too small be shot with an elevated rest, which I prefer over the shelf ten times over. My target, therefore, is blocked by the obstruction of my riser. So I'm trying out a DAS Dalaa and I'm confident that my groups will tighten up by a large margin when I'm able to see what I'm aiming at! Hopefully that'll tide me over 'til my Silvertip comes ;) . I can see the shape of my 3D target, but it is very blurry and I cannot pick out the spot on the target that I am trying to hit. I can still put most of my arrows in a vital spot though, so I'm confident.
This first one was a bit hurried because my battery on the camera was running low, however, the form is at its best.
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/th_DSCF1840.jpg) (http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/?action=view¤t=DSCF1840.flv)
this second one was actually shot before the first. I spent quite a bit of time positioning myself. I've been reading a few threads where it has been mentioned that the shoulders must be parallel to the draw elbow and bow hand, so I was trying to get used to that. The pause in the draw is strange, I never really do that, I think I was just reminding myself to slow down once I hit anchor.
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/th_DSCF1831.jpg) (http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/?action=view¤t=DSCF1831.flv)
-
Looks to me like you are arching your back during the draw. To me that is not correct but I may be dead wrong.
-
Here is what I see.. and I know you have a thousand people saying "Here is what I see, then telling you what you are doing wrong". I think you need to pick a shooting style and go with it. Youve got it in your head that your form sucks and now look. You have changed everything at least 4 different times. Mirror what Guru does. It will feel wierd but once the awkward feeling wears off youll be much happier with your shooting. Pick an anchor spot, keep it. Pick alignment with your feet and shoulders, keep them. Stop focusing on what all needs to be fixed and what all needs to be changed. Focus on the things you can keep from your form and work from there. The best way to pinpoint exactly what is wrong is to isolate a single problem and make adjustment. If you change everything at once you have zero idea what you were doing wrong in the first place. Thats my .02 cents. Pick a style of shooting stop worrying about what needs fixing and what needs changing and get down to it and work on your release, work on getting comfortable with what seems uncomfortable. Then when you get your release back, work on your bow and draw arms. Do small things a little at a time. Youve got it in your head, dont do that.. Its the hardest thing to fix.
-
Only thing I will say as there are more quailified poeple here than I when it comes to critiquing.
There's snow on the ground,,Put on a coat before you get sick... :thumbsup:
signed.
Parent
-
Dustin makes a lot of sense.....changing too many things at once aint a good idea at THIS point.
However, I have to say that you have made LOTS of progress since your 1st video....just watch it, then your last one. No doubt that you have greatly improved.
Keep at it, you are young, and you'll put it together soon and be well on your way. You are already MILES away from where you started.
And I applaud you for sticking with it.....again, have a look.......MAJOR IMPROVEMENT!!!!
1st clip (http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/?action=view¤t=DSCF1508.flv)
Last clip (http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/?action=view¤t=DSCF1831.flv)
-
Check the site: www.pushrelease.com (http://www.pushrelease.com)
This video helped me with my target panic. I teach this way every newcomer and they have great success. A guy shooting 2 weeks hits the kill of a deer every time at 20 yards ;-)) And especially even under pressure! The closing ey method works for a while, but when you`re under pressure you will probably fall back to the old habits. Been there, done that. But now no more!
-
Thanks guys,
As I mentioned before, I got a Dalaa bow. I have it set up with a clicker and stabilizer and wanted to see how my form was with it. Have a look :)
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/th_DSCF1853.jpg) (http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i310/jelloats/?action=view¤t=DSCF1853.flv)
I have become deadly accurate with this bow and the form looks good from what I can see. Any comments?
-
You're doing great Craig. Your alignment with your shoulders looks really good from the front. Your release is so much better! Keep up the good work.
-
Craig,
A "straight" and locked bowarm is fine and dandy if youre shooting targets..(Not that ALL accomplished target archers lock their arm"...
However for hunting purposes its a detriment and will get you in trouble in the "Real" world hunting in different body positions...Also, forget aerial or running targets with a locked arm...
There is NOTHING poetic nor fluid witha locked arm...LOl!
-
My arm is always locked.......doesn't seem to be a detriment to me.....and I sure aint a target archer.
I shot a running angora just this Saturday...and put a 3rd arrow in a running hog last year.
-
You've worked on so much stuff already, that I'd hate to mention it. But try to get your head into position and bring the arrow straight back to your anchor. I noticed that you settle your head into your anchor while or almost at full draw.
As far as the locked elbow, here is my advice, get your full hunting gear on and shoot. Your obviously not hitting your forarm now since I don't see an armguard or bruises. But that might change when you get some hunting clothes on.
-
Your form is improving quickly. At this point I would suggest isolating one small part of your form to work on at a time. The best way to do this is with blind bale work. Set a large target just far enough away that the arrow clears the bow and you can reach forward and grab it for the next shot. Now draw the arrow with your eyes closed and concentrate on feeling the portion of the shot you are working on. Then conclude the shot. This exercise develops muscle memory and allows you to focus completely on an aspect of your shot sequence without having to think about aiming or where the arrow hits. Work on the same portion of your shot sequence until you feel you have mastered it. Do not move on prematurely. It may take a week or more at the bale to begin ingraining the feel. Spend a little time on the bale before each practice session and I think you'll see quicker progress in the long run.
-
I'm with Terry. My arm is locked and I don't have a problem hunting or with shooting moving targets. I am a target archer, bowhunter and trick shot.
Craig...looking good my friend. I agree with both Scott's and Bob's advice.
Ray ;)
-
Draw------anchorrrrrrr-------releaseeeee in one fluid and slow motion keeping the bow arm and bow still pointed at target for ten seconds with the draw hand slowly brushing your ear, still burning a hole in the target reguardless of where the arrow hit. Its all a smooth, smooth flow that you have to have. Quit trying to analyze every shot or even every group of shots. Get rid of the static and realize the dynamic before you ever shoot. Being fluid and calm without stress is what we want to do. Say to yourself " whats at stake here?" this will calm and relax you. You've been shooting long enough to realize when you interject the concious mind then you try to control the shot. Form is a foundation and I don't see form being the issue. I see a trying to hard issue. I could be wrong and have been much, so take what I say with a BIG grain of salt. Take care and great shooting.
Ray...........
-
Guys, just an update,
I've really began to shoot well. I took the clicker off my bow and am going to soon have a bow that is 53# at my 30". Also went to lighter 8.8 gr/lb arrows. I've videoed myself some more and cannot see my hand moving before the shot at all anymore! I may post a new vid soon to show my progress. Thanks and God bless,
Craig
-
Craig, you have alot of bad parts to your shooting form.I think I would take a few lessons to get on track and groove that in rather than try and do the whole correction from a forum by yourself. Other wise you may groove some bad habits and it will be harder to break. Your hand at anchor is flying away and back. That is not correct.When the hand and particularly the fingers finds the same spot on the side of your mouht upon release the hand stays right there.Your also holding the bow out in front and then drawing back.Again wrong.The draw starts with the bow hanging down at your side.And dont put a target up until you work out your form.