Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Red Dwarf on January 22, 2007, 10:19:00 PM
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I am new to archery and have been shooting for about 12 months.
I do not know of any trad shooters in my area and have been learning by myself with the aid of this forum and Byron Ferguson's "Become the arrow".
I am hoping that I have not picked up too many bad habits and would welcome any advice/comments that might set me on the right path.
Thanks Red Dwarf.
Sorry for the poor quality of the video
(http:// [url=http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f74/RedDwarf1/Shooting%20form/?action=view¤t=MVI_0733.flv] [img]http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f74/RedDwarf1/Shooting%20form/th_MVI_0733.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
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You have a very clean release. You might want to slow down your draw a little. You've been told that you should hold the bow very loosely in your bow hand, maybe in the web between your thumb and forefinger. The problem is, without a bow sling, the bow would fall out of your hands. So what happens is that you hold the bow as you've been told, but when you release, you grab the bow, which will throw your shots off. Try to hold the bow as loosely as you can, but not so loosely that you have to grab it when you release.
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You seem to be leaning your head down to match the cant of your bow. Try keeping your head up but cant from the waist. It will help you to get more back tension and save you from possible neck strain.
Graham
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You could also try to push and pull with both arms....Not just pulling with the right arm....
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McDave - I never realised until you pointed it out that I was grabbing the bow just before release, I always thought that this was happening just after release. Thinking about it now, that kind of timing is all but impossible!
Alex - Thanks for the recommendation; anyone else have comments about this book?
Graham - I think that I am leaning my head to the side in an effort to get my right eye over the arrow; I will try to get the same result by leaning from the waist as suggested. I take your point re: neck strain!
Mike - I am shooting a fairly light bow in the clip so can probably get away with things that I may not be able to do with more weight. I do have a heavier bow that I am working towards and thank you for your advice.
Thanks again
Red Dwarf
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The problem with your grip on the bow can be fixed with a wrist sling. Somehow these have gone out of favor and are considered to be somehow non-traditional. My first hunting style bow from the 60's came with both a wrist sling and an elevated brush rest. Even with a wrist sling, it will take some practice to break your habit of grabbing the bow on release.
I did not see a problem with your head position. It helps aiming to have your eye over the arrow and that generally is going to mean you need to bend your head to the right. Try to avoid bending your head forward. I don't understand the advice above about bending at the waist. That will not put your eye over the arrow. Every target archer uses an upright stance.
Perhaps it was the camera angle, but it appeared that you do not have a consistent anchor position. Again, it could be an illusion but it appeared that your hand is out from your face.
IMO, snap shooting is the number one problem with shooting accurately. The touch and release style can work well for someone with LOTS of experience. For the vast majority of us, a few seconds at anchor will greatly improve accuracy. A slower release will require some practice. Try practicing at a close range without aiming. When I work on my hold-release, I move in really close and shut my eyes.
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Jim
You are quite correct, I have been having trouble finding a comfortable anchor position.
Finger at the corner of the mouth just doesn't feel right somehow. I draw with the thumb of my string-hand tight against my palm and the tip bent down 90 deg at the first joint and have been trying to anchor with that thumb knuckle against the back of my jaw bone (does that make sense?)Feels ok but maybe is not consistant enough.
Perhaps I should persevere with middle finger to mouth.
Thank you all for your input. As I suspected - lots to work on!
Red Dwarf
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You are off to a pretty good start, and not too far out of whack.
If you play/pause rapidly over and over as you get close to anchore, you will see that you are falling out of the shot before release. Your bow arm and string arm are dropping a split second before you let go.
Your head position looks fine to me, as you are bringing the equipment to you and not going to it. Looking good there. Just make sure you find a positive repeatable anchore.
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Howdy Red Dwarf,
It sounds / looks like your nocks are really tight on your string. If so, they will give you less speed , alot of string sound, poor arrow flight, and loads of vibration. I found this to be true when somebody here told me the same thing. You might want see if the serving is really a large diameter to start with. I take sand-paper and sand the inside of the nock until it has a real light snap. What you need to do is nock an arrow and hold your bow pointing straight down like you were gonna shoot the ground. Then with your free hand just tap the string fairly close to the arrow, the arrow should come free. If it doesn't, sand some more. Some use emery boards or small files too. You don't want to make them too loose though where they don't stay on at all. I have also read that some guys dip their nocks in boiling water for a few seconds to soften them and open them up alittle. I've never tried that.
Hope you're having a good time,
HH
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I suggest you lengthen your draw. After all these years, I am still working on that.
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Longbowguy
I am rather new to this so please excuse my lack of knowledge; how can I increase my draw length without the elbow of my drawing arm moving out of the vertical plane of the arrow shaft?
From what I have read here and elsewhere (I am only self-taught up to this point. Excuse the pun!!) I thought that one of the basics of good form was keeping the drawing-arm elbow in line with arrow shaft on both the horizontal and vertical planes.
Please throw some light on this for me guys.
Red Dwarf
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Thanks for asking! I think this is a big issue and that a lot of archers short shuck their draw. I'd start with some mirror drills. First air draw, like air guitar, no bow. Simulate your normal draw, now add two inches, now another and another, now two more! You will find that it is physically possible to draw your string hand several inches behind your ear. The great archers of Mongolia, China, Korea and Japan did so in days gone by.
Look at your local compound archers. I hate to admit that most of them have better form than most stickbow archers. They get their hands to the vicinity of their ears. More to the point they get their forearm bones and their elbows in line with their arrows, more or less. Do a web search and look at the form of some Olympic recure shooters. They generally draw to between the corner of the mouth and the ear. And they get their forearms and elbows in line, more or less.
This longer sort of draw produces a lot more arrow speed and is more consistent, especially left/right. I believe you could add two, maybe three inches to your draw length, if your bow is not too heavy. You will need to stand erect, not leaned forward, and keep your head back a bit.
Search for the best anchor point in the feel of your back and your shoulders. Forget accuracy for a while. When you have found the best feel in back and shoulders, begin to search for references between you hand and face, bone on bone. Maybe back knuckles on cheekbone. This is variable as faces vary so much.
Kindly let us know how it goes.
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Usually when you're beginning, your draw length increases a little as you begin to push more with your bow arm and get your string arm elbow back more. In other words, as you develop good back tension. Your draw length can also increase if you shoot with your shoulders more square to the target rather than open. This can happen either by shooting with your whole body at more of a right angle to the target, or as I do, by shooting with my feet in an open position and pivoting my body so my shoulders are more square to the target. I don't think you should make an effort to increase your draw length; just try different things and see what works best for you. Sometimes people shoot better by doing things that reduce their draw length. Shoot a lot, read a lot, and sometime if you have the opportunity, attend a shooting clinic. You seem to be off to a good start.
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PS:
That is a nice example of a pyramid design selfbow. Did you make it your own self?
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LBG
Thanks; Yes I made the bow last spring. It is red oak and pulls 50# @ 28". Seems to shoot fairly consistantly.
Red Dwarf
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Red Dwarf
If you've only been shooting for 12 months with no mentor.....You're doing very well, especially if you are hitting what you're aiming at. You might consider some of the points the guys here have brought up, especially the grabbing the bow at the shot. Honestly, I think you've laid a good foundation.
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Otto
I am now trying to hold the bow with the tips of my thumb and forefinger touching, as recommended by another Tradganger, so that I can maintain a loose grip but hopefully stop the inclination to "grab" the handle just before release. Still struggling with finding a comfortable anchor though.
Red Dwarf
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Red Dwarf, just one question, are the arrows all going where your looking? If so keep doing what your doing. If not, follow some of the advise from above. Alaska Jim
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I watched the video a coupla times and it looks to me like your anchor point is floating just a bit. In other words it looked to me like you didn't anchor in the exact same place every shot. You were close but not exactly the same. Everything has to be the same everytime for comsistant results. at least when you are first starting out.
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Alaska Jim
I shoot in my basement at about 13 yards and my average 3 arrow group is 3 inch, and fairly close to where I am aiming. I really would like to be more consistant though as I still get too many flyers!!
C2
You are quite right; I just do not seem to be able to find a comfortable anchor.
RD
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I just noticed, as Terry says, you're collapsing ever so slightly just before you loose. Keep the back tension coming right through the draw-loose-follow through cycle. Again, your bow hand, but that's been talked about. One thing you might want to try is to place just the tips of your index & middle fingers on the back of the handle, relaxing your thumb, ring & pinkie fingers. Don't apply any pressure with the 2 fingers in contact with the bow, but it gives you a little mental security against dropping the bow. It takes a bit of getting used to, but by closing upthese 2 fingers, you relax every muscle & tendon in your hand & wrist, meaning that you're not 'heeling' or torquing the bow on release.
It could be the angle you're shooting at, but your left shoulder looks a little hunched too.
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I watched John Schulz's "Hitting 'em like Howard Hill" a couple of days ago. I think I might try the "commencing your draw as you raise the bow" approach for a while and see how I get on.
Will post another video in a week or so to see how I am doing.
Thank you all for your helpful comments to date.
Red Dwarf
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Well, I have been work on my form for the past couple of weeks and would wlecome your comments on how things are progressing. (Hopefully in the right direction)
(http:// [url=http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f74/RedDwarf1/?action=view¤t=MVI_0821.flv] [img]http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f74/RedDwarf1/th_MVI_0821.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
Sorry that the video is a little dark.
Red Dwarf
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Looks good.
One thing I see at the moment is that you still have tension in the back of your hand....cause your fingers are curling back up after the release......if you can relax the hand on release, the shot will be and feel smoother, and your follow though wont be so stiff.
There is also a little forward creep going on right before the shot.....if you solve that, the above may vanish by default.
You may still be telling yourself to let go, instead of just 'allowing' the release to happen sub-consciously.
Your alignment looks real good, and the bow arm is solid as a rock.....any way to get an over head angle?
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Looks very good to me my friend. I like your solid follow through. You keep doing what your doing your not going to miss that kill zone at 20 yards. I can tell you one thing though, as long as you shoot the bow you will always tinker around somewhat. Making little minor adjustments with your anchor, your release, tempo and rhythm, head angle, bow hand grip and so on. If you ever get to the point where you have it all down pat then I tip my hat to you. Alaska Jim
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You're follow though is a great strength of your form. Congratulations!
Just wondering what you are pulling?
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Terry
I will try to get an overhead done in the next couple of days. Now that you mention it, I can see the creep forward that you are talking about. Funny, I never noticed it before you brought it up....Thanks.
Bobco
The bow is a pyramid selfbow and pulls 50# @ 28". My draw length is only a little over 26" (I am not exactly the biggest guy around at 5'6" and 140#!)and am pulling 45# at that draw. I am trying to work up to a really nice 57# @ 28" T/D recurve that I managed to find a couple of months back.
I can shoot it ok if I just shoot 1 or 2 arrows at a time before retrieving them; if I shoot 4 or 5 in a row I lose form. I really don't want to do anything that will be detrimental to what progress I have managed to make!!
Red Dwarf
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Red,
By the way I never got a chance to comment how far you've come from the first video to put here.
You lQQk like a completely different shooter.
I hope that tape helped, because it lQQked like you followed it to the T.
Congrats and I hope you'll be at your local 3-D shoots. Send us a pitcure of ya frist hunt.
Jim
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Nice form just a note on your nocks be caaaarefull how much material you remove from them when getting them to fit on string it will weaken them some good luck Ralph!
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On your first video, I noticed that you were creeping forward with your drawing hand just prior to release. Something I have started doing is not just anchoring with my hand, but also pulling the bowstring into the side of my eyebrow. This creates a multiple point anchor.
Your second video looks great IMO, but for some reason I can only see you shoot one arrow in that video. It quits playing about half way through.
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funny how nobody mensiond that awsome rock solid bowarm . i think ur lookin good . hows ur groups doin? see if you can hold a second longr.
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sorry .terry did mension the bowarm. but its worth 2 mensions :bigsmyl: