Post by: Emmons on February 01, 2007, 04:34:00 PM
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/th_DSCN2884.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/?action=view¤t=DSCN2884.flv)
View from above
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/th_DSCN2888.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/?action=view¤t=DSCN2888.flv)
Frontal View
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/th_DSCN2890.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/?action=view¤t=DSCN2890.flv)
Thanks James
Post by: 9 Mile Archer on February 01, 2007, 05:18:00 PM
The bow looks too pretty, I think the beauty is distracting you eye and throwing you off. I'll do you a favor and even pay shipping up here to Montana. It will be happy next to my Black Douglas. :biglaugh:
No comment on the shooting, I am posting for instruction also and am in no position to tell others what to do.
Post by: Terry Green on February 01, 2007, 06:01:00 PM
I only see one thing that might fine tune you a bit....but if you are happy, I aint gonna put no monsters in your head.
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
Overall......looks real good.
Post by: **oneshot** on February 01, 2007, 08:43:00 PM
Post by: Emmons on February 01, 2007, 10:38:00 PM
Terry- I am almost satisfed with my shooting. I have no problems keeping arrows in the kill zone out to 25 yards. But I can not consistently shoot nice tight group (like I have seen you do). I can shoot a group about 5" at 20 yards, but I would like that to be 2". I think it is a picking a shot thing. So take let that monster out of his cage, if you think I can improve.
Oneshot- I do not have to buy alot of arrows thankfully. The shipping and 20% import tax is a killer and the only arrows I have found locally were at a odd/ends shop and they wanted around 18 US per shaft (CX Terminators). But you are correct that 2" thick concrete fence will eat carbon, aluminum and wood in a hurry.
James
Post by: Terry Green on February 01, 2007, 10:50:00 PM
Make sure that your bow arm is straight at the target, AND, your shoulders are straight at the target.
Looks like, to me anyway, that you are having to 'hold' on target with your bow arm shoulder muscles cause you aren't getting complete alignment and bone structure holding in your shot. This is causing the ever so slight, but quick, movement left at release.
Other than that......you got it down hoss.
Post by: Emmons on February 01, 2007, 11:33:00 PM
I have watch the video a few times again and I see the movement you are talking about. To get this right, you are thinking I need to sqeeze my shoulder blades together some more? And this will pull my bow arm and shoulder into alignment?
I have always tried to shoot some what relaxed, but with back tension in control. Maybe with this relaxed sytle I have been limiting my back tension. I hope you understand what I just said. Thank you for the tip, I will work on it and put some new vids up for you to check to see if I get it down.
James
Post by: JC on February 02, 2007, 08:05:00 AM
Sometimes that movement to the left at release is caused by trying to push too far with the bow arm in an attempt to lengthen draw....often another subconscious side effect of the stance opening up too much, at least for me.
Post by: Terry Green on February 02, 2007, 09:00:00 AM
Not really more tension from squeezing, don't want to change your anchor too much....gotta get it on the 'front end' by getting your bow arm and shoulders more in-line with each other and the target......which by default will close your stance a bit like JC said. If your draw length gets lengthened, it wont be from drawing farther with your drawing arm....but will be done from the aligment adjustments of your bow arm and shoulders.
See below.....your shoulders are pointing left of the target...and that's why your bow arm is moving left on the shot....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/alignment.jpg)
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/alignment2.JPG)
Want to get you more inline like this....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/ta.jpg)
I've always said I feel that form is from the waist up, you can rotate and bend at the waist, and take your form/alignment with you.
Post by: Emmons on February 02, 2007, 09:22:00 AM
A picture is worth a thousand words. With JC's description and Terry's illustrations, it is now as clear as a mountain spring. I think I developed this problem as a result of my shoulder problems. The torn labrum in my shoulder allows additional rearward movement (left) of my bow hand. I know I consciously moved my bow arm to the right by opening my stance to protect the shoulder. I will try what is being suggested. If this cause pain in my shoulder, then I now were to focus after my surgery in April.
Thank you both for taking the time to help me.
James
Post by: sparrow on February 15, 2007, 04:15:00 AM
Post by: drewsbow on February 20, 2007, 08:31:00 PM
Post by: Emmons on February 25, 2007, 10:19:00 AM
Thank for the help guys. I have been working on getting my shoulders parallel with my arrow. It did not take much of a change, but it did take a little time to feel comfortable. Shooting was good before, now it is better. Slapping arrows together much more often. I will post new video when I get some time to film my shooting again.
James
Post by: JC on February 26, 2007, 09:06:00 AM
Post by: Terry Green on February 28, 2007, 02:19:00 PM
Post by: Snakeeater on February 28, 2007, 04:00:00 PM
Thanks Tarz!
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 16, 2007, 07:17:00 PM
Post by: hunt it on April 04, 2007, 09:36:00 AM
You'll find no better advice than that Terry and JC have already given you. Just one suggestion on tightening your groups up. Get yourself some of those small orange target stickers and put three or four on your target 2" diameter or (a black marker will do also) and shoot one arrow at each dot for awhile. I found this helps concentration when trying to shoot tight groups. Although at $18.00 each you might not want to tighten those groups up too much as it might get expensive!
Post by: joebuck on June 04, 2007, 01:33:00 PM
Post by: carlr2s on June 04, 2007, 10:46:00 PM
Post by: carlr2s on June 04, 2007, 10:51:00 PM
Post by: Terry Green on June 12, 2007, 09:51:00 PM
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/alignment.jpg)
EQUALS THIS...
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/alignment2.JPG)
Amd NOT this....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/ta.jpg)
And this...
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/alignment2a.JPG)
Does NOT equal this......
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/form2clock3.JPG)
Post by: joebuck on June 15, 2007, 11:43:00 PM
Post by: Ray Hammond on June 16, 2007, 07:43:00 AM
Post by: joebuck on June 16, 2007, 02:03:00 PM
Post by: Ray Hammond on June 16, 2007, 09:21:00 PM
Post by: Emmons on June 16, 2007, 11:23:00 PM
I first worked on my shoulder alignment, but I took it to far and did not feel comfortable (stable) when shooting and the string started hits my bottom lip. I backed off of what I thought was perfect shoulder alignment, about half way between my photos and Terry's. Now I feel comfortable thru the shot and I am not catching my lip.
Now I also pause a slit second longer at full draw and anchor with my middle finger in my mouth crease with my mouth closed. Before I was anchoring with my finger in my mouth. I think this caused some of hitting of my lip. Change a lot of thing to avoid this, but man does that hurt after 50 arrows.
I also cut back on how much I pull thru my anchor. I felt there was just too much movement in my shot. I am still pulling thru, but not too the extereme you see in video. I use a 3 under deep hook and a three point anchor. Middle finger in mouth crease, cock feather touching my nose, and the second joint of my thumb behind my jaw.
I am pretty sure I am shooting with my back not my arm. My arm never get tired, but if I shot alot I feel it in my back. Also I remember what back tension feels like from the compound days. The bow I am shooting in the video is a Border´s at 64# at my draw lenght. My Morrison´s are 61 and 66 pounds at my draw lenght. I am happy at this weight and feel good, dispite a pending shoulder surgery from an old work accident. Maybe I will drop a few pounds after the surgery until I am 100%. I have been postponing this for about 8 month now, due to work and hunting season.
I have been gauging my shooting by scoring. I shoot one arrow then pull. Vary the distance and shot angle with each arrow. I score them 10, 8, and 5. 10 being a heart shot, 8 lungs, and 5 is in the target. I draw these on my 3d deer to deplict actual size and position of a really deer, so they are a little smaller then the normal 3d rings. The heart is 2-1/2" tall and 3" wide. After a layoff from shooting my 10 arrow score is normally around 85, after a couple of days practicing my scores are normally in the mid 90´s (3 or 4 arrow out of the heart).
Again I would like to thank everyone for their advice. I am much happier with my shooting, but you can always be better. I will continue to work on it. I will also update the videos as soon as I get a free weekend.
James
Post by: Emmons on June 16, 2007, 11:36:00 PM
Post by: Terry Green on June 22, 2007, 11:53:00 AM
As I stated at the start,....you were not that far off......then the diagrams show that you were'nt far off. Glad to hear its working out for ya!!!
Joey,
The difference in our 'camera angle' IS apples to apples cause straight lines is straight lines ....His angle IS directly overhead like mine, he's just STANDING at a different angle........put down the beer :D
Here, let me show ya.....
Apple One.....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/alignment2a.JPG)
Apple Two....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/formclockangle3.jpg)
Apple Three.....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/chili.jpg)
Apple Four....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/form2clock3.JPG)
Post by: amicus on June 28, 2007, 11:31:00 AM
Thanks, Gilbert
Post by: Bowclinic on August 12, 2007, 03:13:00 AM
Post by: Bowclinic on August 12, 2007, 03:18:00 AM
Your release and follow trough is rerally explosive, and that produces inconsistency on your groups.
Post by: Terry Green on August 12, 2007, 08:13:00 AM
Don't forget, we are bowhunters,...and the center of gravity gets thrown out the window in the field. And that tension wasn't causing the explosive release, his alignment was.
Various Gravity Centers (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry-2.wmv)
Post by: Emmons on May 11, 2008, 02:24:00 PM
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/th_MVI_0561.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/?action=view¤t=MVI_0561.flv)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/th_MVI_0559.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/?action=view¤t=MVI_0559.flv)
Post by: Stringbender on May 17, 2008, 11:53:00 PM
Post by: cvarcher on May 18, 2008, 06:05:00 PM
Post by: SHOOTO8S on May 18, 2008, 09:37:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by cvarcher:CV...kinda curious as to how one would be limited in the field ?
Taking all the weight by drawing with the bow extended before the draw starts in my opinion is not fluid and comfortable.That doesnt mean you cant shoot good on target, but it limits you in the field.
Post by: cvarcher on May 18, 2008, 10:13:00 PM
Post by: SHOOTO8S on May 18, 2008, 10:24:00 PM
Maybe I'm somewhat limited in scope as the majority of my hunting is in the heavy pressured south...where I can't imagine swing drawing on a deer...waay too much movement!
Post by: BLACK WOLF on May 18, 2008, 11:04:00 PM
The way I see it...every one has to swing draw to some extent.
Most of us hold our bows at our sides while stalking or standing in our tree stands and when an opportunity to shoot an animal is presented the bow has to be raised at some point.
The bow is either going to be raised before the draw or while the archer is drawing.
I believe if a bowhunter wants to increase their opportunities they should learn to do both at different speeds to account for the different scenarios a bowhunter may be placed in. The swing draw does not need to be performed fast.
The quickest way to draw and shoot a bow from a relaxed position with the bow arm at your side...is the swing draw.
How a bowhunter draws should be based on the situation and how they have practiced.
Ray ;)
Post by: BLACK WOLF on May 18, 2008, 11:08:00 PM
A good release is generally harder to achieve with a static release when compared to a dynamic release where the hand moves in a linear direction with the line of pull on the bowstring.
There's a reason why the majority of Olympic archers shoot with a dynamic release.
The key is finding what best works for you.
Ray ;)
Post by: SHOOTO8S on May 18, 2008, 11:36:00 PM
Post by: cvarcher on May 19, 2008, 12:11:00 AM
Post by: BLACK WOLF on May 19, 2008, 12:49:00 AM
Hill and Schultz are great archers to hold in high regard. Their style...at least the one that is taught by Shultz applies more specifically to hunting. I totally enjoyed Shultz's video and use it for my aerial shooting.
I wish there was some video of Hill actually competeing in a Field Event. I would be curious if his style changed with longer targets or when in tournament situations. I know he mentioned holding his bow more vertical for longer shots.
An archer needs to determine exactly what their goals and than research the styles that are best suited for those goals.
I personally use a dynamic release that only moves a few inches back from the corner of my mouth.
If you watch in slow motion in Shultz's video you can see his hand move reward after release and than move forward back to anchor.
The biomechanical reason why a static release is harder to achieve a good release is in the way the muscles contract, stabilize and relax in different stages through out the shooting process.
Ray ;)
Post by: BLACK WOLF on May 19, 2008, 12:57:00 AM
Basically...the swing draw is faster to get to anchor when BOTH archers start with their bows at their side...because during the swing draw...the archer is already drawing the bow as he is raising it.
They should BOTH be the same when the set draw bow arm is already in place.
Now how fast they SHOOT is also dependent on how fast an archer aquires the correct sight picture.
Ray ;)
Post by: SHOOTO8S on May 19, 2008, 06:09:00 AM
Bowhunterinchile posted....Posting my updated form videos for the people to see the improvments. For me this is my form and where I want to be. Not perfect but I am very happy with my shooting.
From his words, I dont think he was looking for advice on how to speed up his shot...so my question was...is there enough difference in speed between the swing draw and set arm draw, to insist to a guy who by his own words is pefectly happy with his shot, change ?
Post by: Terry Green on May 19, 2008, 08:31:00 AM
Let see....didn't we already hash this out just a couple of months ago??? Do we have to show the clips here on Trad Gang again and once again PROVE HH had a dynamic release??????? Do we???? Again???? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Post by: Terry Green on May 19, 2008, 09:06:00 AM
Post by: AllenR on May 19, 2008, 10:27:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by BLACK WOLF:There is a video of Hill showing a young lady how to shoot field. He demonstrated the strangest draw that I've ever seen. He held his bow arm straight up over his head, drew the bow and then brought it down and established his anchor. In this same video he also demonstrated the point of aim system.
I wish there was some video of Hill actually competeing in a Field Event.
This is very different from what Schultz teaches and what you see on most Hill videos.
The video doesn't say if he actually used these techniques in competition.
From the videos that I've seen, Hill had such incredibly good hand eye coordination that he could probably shoot well using almost any form variation that we can come up with. He's probably not the best roll model for a beginning or even intermediate archer to try to copy.
Post by: BLACK WOLF on May 19, 2008, 11:24:00 AM
I thought you're question was posted to the general public. I didn't see it addressed to anyone specific so I honestly thought I would try to answer it for you.
I'm wondering now if your ? was a rhetorical ? that you already had an answer for? I'm guessing from your experience...it might have been ;)
Either way...no problem...I was just trying to answer it for ya...in case you were really serious about wanting to know which one would be faster.
So to answer your new question...'to insist' he needs to speed up is in my opinion not really needed unless he was competeing in timed events.
Ray ;)
Post by: Terry Green on May 19, 2008, 11:38:00 AM
Which is faster???? All depends, if you bow is already up, then the set arm could be faster now couldn't it???
Both swing and pre set are BOTH CORRECT...because they BOTH WORK.
And I think the bowhunters should be able to shoot BOTH WAYS if he wants to be versatile in the field.
Re- Hash, Corn beef n Hash, or for some; smokin hash (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=003961;p=1)
:goldtooth: :biglaugh: :jumper:
Post by: Emmons on May 19, 2008, 01:20:00 PM
I can not agree more with Terry, it is all about your alignment at release. Going thru this process of improving my form, has proven that to me. I no longer need a specific cant or foot position, etc. to make an accurate shot. I vary my shooting position (sitting, standing, kneeling) and my cant often. I also vary my drawing method (swing vs. set). This is all done to simulate hunting conditions.
In respect to the release. I have a hard time maintaining back tension with a static release.
I want to thank everyone for your suggestion and opinions.
James
Post by: Terry Green on May 19, 2008, 01:42:00 PM
Post by: BLACK WOLF on May 19, 2008, 02:00:00 PM
Sometimes things just need to be repeated ;)
Ray ;)
Post by: SHOOTO8S on May 19, 2008, 02:06:00 PM
Post by: Terry Green on May 19, 2008, 02:17:00 PM
Post by: SHOOTO8S on May 19, 2008, 02:48:00 PM
Congrats James!
Post by: BLACK WOLF on May 19, 2008, 04:04:00 PM
Ray ;)
Post by: Diamond Paul on May 19, 2008, 05:17:00 PM
Post by: Emmons on July 30, 2008, 08:44:00 PM
I am shooting my 54" Morrison Cheyenne 66# @ 27", AD Traditionals with 250 gr. points, total arrow weight is 620 gr. Was shooting at 20 meters or 22 Yards. This is a typical group for me, four good arrows and one flier.
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/th_MVI_1068.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/?action=view¤t=MVI_1068.flv)
James
Post by: BLACK WOLF on July 31, 2008, 12:21:00 AM
That's some pretty good shootin'! ...even with the flyer...that really isn't off by that much ;)
What do you believe causes your fliers? Lack of concentration? Something in your form? Target panic? Is it on average a specific shot like your 2nd., 3rd. or last that's the flier?
I have found blank bale work helps me ALOT with just about every issue that concerns me regarding shooting a bow! ;)
Ray ;)
Post by: Terry Green on July 31, 2008, 09:51:00 AM
BTW....again, glad to see you stiving to improve still yet. Wish more folks would commit like you have.
Nice Shooting BTW!
Post by: Emmons on July 31, 2008, 11:56:00 AM
James
Post by: BLACK WOLF on July 31, 2008, 12:36:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by bowhunterinchile:If your fliers are coming from a bad release (lack of back tension) stand in front of a blank bale at close distance and work on that specific part of your shooting until it becomes instinctive. You really don't want to have to think about any aspect of your form.
My flyers normally come from a bad release, i.e. lack of back tension. I think when I shoot for groups, especially groups of more then three; I stop thinking about pulling thru the shot.
James
Eventually...you want it to be so engrained within your muscle memory and your subconscious that it just happens exactly the same way every time without any conscious thought other than the decision to pick your target and draw your bow.
Many archers will loose concentration and form when shooting multiple arrows in a row from the same position. You need to treat each arrow as if it were the first...so you need to learn to play that game in your head. Sometimes slowing your pace down and giving yourself a little more time in between shots can help until you develop better concentration.
Ray ;)
Post by: BLACK WOLF on July 31, 2008, 12:42:00 PM
Ray ;)
Post by: Terry Green on July 31, 2008, 07:54:00 PM
From what I saw it looked like on #4 you probably just had a mental breakdown due to 'trying to hard' to keep that group....and you 'thought about' your release....and you knew what you did, and re-grouped and focused on your last shot making it good.
Like I said,....been there - done that. :banghead:
Post by: saddlesmith on February 05, 2009, 09:36:00 PM
Terry I think your way of showing correct form is absolutely great. Shows me what to work toward. Thank you both.
saddlesmith
Ron Brooks
Post by: crossstickspro on February 06, 2009, 11:44:00 PM