Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Deadeye33 on March 21, 2007, 09:05:00 PM
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I am experimenting with different shooting styles Gap shooting, pure instinctive, and swing draw instinctive. I understand the logic behind gap and purely instinctive shooting but tonight I had the most success with the swing draw shooting. I was amazed since my bow arm barely settled before the arrow was released. Any theory on why this works?
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Id like to hear about this. Post up guys TTT
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Welcome aboard to pure and simple instinctive shooting. :clapper:
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Shoot the swing method side by side with someone like Rod Jenkins and you will see which is the most accurate way to shoot.
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I attended a seminar with Fred Asbell, and he believes the swing draw method is better because it keeps the arrow out of your vision. He believes that if the arrow is in your vision, you will divert some of your attention to it, and it is better if 100% of your attention is focused on the target.
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yup
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McDave,
That makes a lot of sense! I think I'm going to shoot that style from now on. Is it also good for distance shooting?
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Shoot the swing method side by side with someone like Rod Jenkins and you will see which is the most accurate way to shoot.
Incognito
Very well said, especially if we're talking about a swing draw combined with a snap anchor. The best shooters I have seen have a controlled shot cycle. The swing draw can work at close range but cannot be as accurate as a more measured shot. With everything in motion repeatibility is difficult. Very, very few people can control that type of shot cycle for consistent accuracy. If the swing draw was all that, you'd see the best archers in the world using it. Ever see a swing draw in the Olympics???
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I also worry that its too much movement on a deer
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Please Be CAREFULL!!!!!
I shot purely instinctive for many years (and still do) Several years ago,I read an artical by Dennis Kamstra in Traditional Bowhunter magazine about Snapshooting/Swingdraw shooting. It worked GREAT!!!!!
However.....Later on it lead to a BUNCH of problems,all basicly associated with "target panic". Most of the problems are related to not hitting my anchor point,or a pre-mature/sloppy release. I used to draw,anchor,hold for 10-30 seconds while I focused on my "spot",then I would release,(a super SMOOTH release BTW) and follow through,
NOW, Most times my "brain" tells my fingers to release wether I'm on target or not. If I hit my anchor point and try to dig in,and hold it,I throw my release or pluck the string,giving me a REAL sloppy release!!!!!
Now I'm not saying this will happen to you,but please,proceed carefully.
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My experience is similiar to Woodchuckers. That doesn't mean you will have the same problems but you need to be aware. If you are not careful - over time the act of pointing with your bow hand at the target will trigger your release, whether you are anchored, at full draw, or whatever. Its a "conditioned response" Jay Kidwell explains it very well in his posts and book.
Woodchucker, go to Jay Kidwells target panic post (or get his book) and follow his advice,you can be back in control of your release.
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Same problem but, I think it also had to do with starting out with too heavy of a bow. I was trying to hold a 60lb. Hill style bow and pick a spot. I tried the swingdraw method after hurting my shoulder doing it the other way. And, it worked well for awhile, but then everything went bad. Now I have a lighter bow #45 and am trying to break myself of all the bad habits I learned early on. The chant in my head now is "hold-back tension-release.
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I think the bowhunter should be able to shoot many ways, and the swing draw is just another shot that should be in the trick bag.
Target archers don't 'need' a swing draw, but bowhunters sure can use it at times.
HH swung draw on a lot of animals.....and he was accurate. Lots of guys I've hunted with I've watched swing draw with precise accuracy on animals.
I swung drew on a goat last week....sure worked for me. I've also held my bow pointed at at a deer for 2 or 3 minutes while he looked at me, and drew as he turned away......that worked as well.
Practice both ways, and you'll be more versatile as a bowhunter.
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Ok, the swing draw (snap shooting) works, because it works.
The only folks who can criticize the form are those who sucessfully shoot it. The rest haven't done it yet. They can theorize why some other method "has' to be better, or try to explin why it didn't work for them. But until you've done it, you haven't done it. If you see someone do it, you will be shocked and amazed and change your thinking, even if it's you who you see do it behind the arrows you send true to the spot in a nice tight group when you try it 'cause it's not hard.
But, Deadeye, you and I have shared the experience of discovering to our amazement that we could hit what we shot at handily and casually with the simple, seeming uncontrolled, loose, dynamic move of a swing-draw-release-on-achor. A lot like the videos of John Schultz or Byron Ferguson shooting the tossed aspirin. 'Zackly how you shoot a tossed aspirin, by the way.
I posted pix of a 33/32's group I shocked my self by shooting that way, and have repeated often just swinging up, and drawing a line on the spot, releasing on the line as I passed anchor, still pulling through the shot. It's the secret to dead-eye quick hunting shots. I think these are posted under an old thread on "snap shooting" in this forum.
Works with a 58# Tomahawk and a 73# Howard Hill Black Bear. Works pretty well with a 50% Martin Rebel Recurve. Bet it works wih a Korean bow.
Here's why I think it works for them as try it:
1. It's a rythm/form/vision thing that your mind repeats astonishingly consistently. eye/hand/body-laguage thing?
2. Your vision, timing and pulling through the shot gets you on the spot, drawing a line to the spot with all focus on your spot, and no time or stopping or dsitractions to throw you off that line to the focused spot.
3. it works.
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Groundhunter......yep...and HH was a snap shooter too. Just check the clips of HH on this site.
Snap shooting was given a negative term by those that don't shoot that way, or don't understand how it works IMO.
Target panic is not snap shooting. Target panic is a mental problem/issue not related to a shooting style. I've snap shot a bunch of critters, and I've never had target panic. If snap shooting lead to target panic, I'd have had it long ago.
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Agreed Terry..Snap shoting does not allow enough time for panic to set in. Panic sets in while holding too long. IMO.
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The key to successful shooting is the sum of all the parts in the shot process: focus, stance draw, release and follow through. You cannot concentrate on any more than one thing at a time. If the form is consistent, just focus on the shot. Be mindful of the mechanics but focus on the shot. Jay Kidwell's book, Instinctive Archery Insights... well worth the investment.
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I for one think that Snap shooting and Swing draw are two differant animals....
Snap shooting people usualy don't reach anchor and have no form.
Swing draw, has form, your bow arm is steady thru the shot and you pull thru anchor....You use good form....
Some people think HH snap shoots, he didn't he used Swing draw....He just did it quick.
I just hate it when people confuse the two.
Sorry just my opinon....
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After Shultz's video I was a dedicated swing shooter. Amazing shootin for awhile, then the snap shooting at the speed of light set in. Couldnt slow it down to save my life. I had the tendency to swing up above the aim point(target)
and had to bring the bow hand down to make it feel right. Over shot alot of targets, finally had to quit or quit archery. Start now with the bow arm extended toward the target, few overshoots.
The swing draw also forces a commit at the start of the swing, the animal moves, virtually impossible to stop the shot. I can let down if it doesnt feel right with the set arm. Shot that way well before Shultz with bows up to 70#. I am in recovery from being the fastest snapshooter on the planet. Focus on the target and follow thru are now my main worries. My form is solid and am shooting with little conscious reference, I can group and hit out to point on that way. Beyond that I use a split vision reference which works OK on balloons at 40yards.
Estacado
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Mike,
Yep....snap shooting and swing drawing are two different things....and IMO have nothing to do with form, good or bad....its only a style.
HH was a snap shooter, who also used the swing draw. There are clips of both examples on this site. He had good form and proper alignment.
The guy that taught me to shoot when I was 8 hunted with HH and called him a snap shooter...back in those days, from the way he describes it, snap shooting did not have a negative term....the negative term was brought about only in recent years by those that have suffered target panic. That's why I refer to HH as a snap shooter.
estacado,
"The swing draw also forces a commit at the start of the swing, the animal moves, virtually impossible to stop the shot."
Not for those that are in control of their shot. That's like saying a basketball player committing to a jumpshot can't pass when he sees a wide open team mate under the basket. I've let down on swing draws plenty of times....rabbits and hogs.
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From what ive been told the Indians were snap shooters and if that's true that killed more game then I think most hunters ever will IMO they were the best hunters that have ever lived. Im not possitive they did snap shoot but if they did who's going to say its a bad way to shoot?
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What Terry said is correct as far as being in control of the shot. Timing has to be spot on and all parts of the shot sequence in sync. When I started shooting really fast, I lost the control necessary to let down on the shot. Once again the differences in the discussion are nuances of style and what works for you. Everyone is different and the more atheletic of you will do well with the swing draw, I did for a while and then it went south.
Estacado
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Swing draw (snap shootin) dose not nessisarily mean fast....
I swing draw at times, butt I have my own pace or speed of shot....
I wouldn't call it it real fast....
Terry, in my neck of the woods Snap shootin is a Bad thing, no form, no anchor etc.
Swing Draw is fluid beautiful motion, with controld bow arm anchor and release....
As Terry mentioned learn it along with other styles, Swing draw is great for Hunting....
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Mike,
I got curious, and worried I might be speaking incorrectly, and wanted to ask someone else that would know. So, I emailed a longtime Trad Ganger and longbow world champion the following about the term 'snap shooting' back in the day. He's about the same age as the guy I spoke of earlier.
Here's what I emailed him....
'The guy that taught me to shoot long ago when I was 8 is about your age.......he relayed to me that HH was a snap shooter.....and that 'back in the day' snap shooter meant a person that shot quick. He also said that snap shooting did not have a negative term like today, and that negative term came about by those that suffered from target panic........I've also heard other 'old duffers' refer to snap shooters, and they weren't making a negative statement either.
Do you agree?
What's your take?
Thanks,
Terry'
Here's his reply.......
'I agree, snap shooting back then meant shoot quickly as soon as you touched anchor and a lot of people shot that way. I once heard Fred Bear refer to his shooting style as snap shooting. He said, "I'm a shap shooter, I release as soon as I hit my anchor" That's why Fred couldn't shoot a compound, the let off messed up his fluid style.
Fred Asbell is a snap shooter but it's very controled and he hits his anchor before he releases.
I think where the snap shooting style got a bad rap was when people with target panic who released before they hit anchor were put on the same list. That kind of shooting doesn't compare to those who snap shoot in a controlled manner.
If it wasn't for all of those years shooting target archery where the accepted form was to anchor and hold, I'd probably be a "snap shooter" too :~)
The guy that taught you knew what he was talking about.'
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The snap shooting I was refering to, was not the touch and go release sequence you are referring to. Originally it was just that, arrive at anchor - release. This involved swing up then arriving on target line with about 8" to go to anchor then straigt back to anchor and touch and go. Then it deteriorated to Snap shooting. I swore I was hitting my anchor, witnesses said no way 'Moose Breath'. Mine was akin to TP and not a controlled shot. It was something I could not slow down, and even now I' ll swing the bow up if I m on a 3D course or in the woods. My 'poor ole pea brain' almost recognizes this all of the time. I can almost control the shot in that circumstance - finally.
Estacado
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Terry....
I'll agree with you....
Terminology meanings do have a habit of changing over the years....
I like the Swing Draw and practice it....Sometimes I'll hold longer if neccessary....
Take a look at the video section of HH shootin the Hawk out of the tree, He held a while on that shot....
I have a friend who Snap shoots and dose'nt know ahat an Anchor is, no form what so ever, and admits it....Some times he'll hit something, most times not....
For me I'll stick with Swing Draw verses Snap shootin when refering to Mr Hills Shootin....
Now theres a term that has a strange meaning in Archery "Shootin" you release an Arrow, we don't shoot it....
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Ok we need a new term for the form flaw of releasing before anchor. Seems its pretty common now to use "snap shooting" to describe it but that would be incorrect. We'll call-em "flinger shooter" or "flingers" maybe. Open for other suggestions?
I'm sometimes a "snap" shooter in the HH definition (although it has lead to mild TP where I reach anchor still but dont steady my bow arm sufficiently and shoot ok just not super) but "snap shooting" should not have a negative slant associated with it. It's just not right! :( ;)
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Bowhunting situations are just different , you have to adapt to your type cover and area you are hunting , sometimes what you get is all ya get ...the first time I shot hog I was bending down on a knee and way to my left another time almost on my back...personally if it works, use it...most times for me swing draw prob wont work because of too much movement with my bow quiver, might work on targets or something like that...but never say never...I guess...good thread! :)
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To me,the swing draw and snap shooting are both just part of an all round shooting style that also includes the push pull draw,the solid hold at anchour,Point of aim shooting and instinctive shooting.
It seems odd to me that so many people want to separate them and claim one over another,when put togeather they all work so well.
Guess nobody's ever going to write a book titled "the well balanced archer" LOL.
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Yeah John....and one can swing draw and snap shoot(shoot fast)...or one can swing draw and hold.
One can pre point and snap shoot(shoot fast)...or pre point and hold.
I've done all in the field many times.
I've shot with Ron LaClair, and he used a pre point and hold - dead release on stationary targets, but more of a swing draw and snap shot - pull through on moving targets.
Charlie Lamb uses a pre point and hold most of the time when I've stump shot with him, but there's a clip of him shooting a javie with a snap shot semi swing draw.
Curtis Kellar shoots many ways depending on the shot at hand.....and I could go on and on.
The main thing is being in control of the bow and the shot, and not letting either dictate or restrict you to only one shot if you want to capitalize on different opportunities that arise.
Being versatile is a big asset to the bowhunter.