Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: KyleAllen on March 25, 2007, 04:21:00 PM
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We shot the asa shoot in paris,tx this past weekend. It was an eye opener to say the least. There were some boys there that could sure enough shoot a recurve i mean to tell ya. Hek one guy shot a 198 on 20 targets!!! Thing is, all the guys who shot "the best" did not shoot instinctive. They all shot "point of aim". They would anchor so that they were sighting right down their arrow and they shot with the bow vertical. Pretty much....they aimed. I dont care for this style at all, but they dominated with it. Im no slouch shot myself. Hek i think i out scored everyone that shot instinctive, but we just couldnt hang with those other boys. Do all the guys who win tournaments shoot like this?
Kyle
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i do,we just shot the indoor ncfaa state championship here in n.c. the 9th,10th and 11th of this month.nfaa 300 and vegas 300,our club took 6 state championships in different classes,4 in traditional,adult,senior,master senior,and barebow,3 of us shoot point of aim,my friend who took the adult trad division is the only one who shoots instinctive.so it says something for the style,3 of us out of 4.i shot instinctive for a long time,but started playing around with point of aim and there was no looking back.i wonder how many of those old boys were shooting 3 under? the only drawback to the style is a little loss of performance because of the forward creep,but if its an animal and you can knock its eye out at 20 yards it don't matter. :campfire:
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they ALL shot three under. I just personally dont care for the style. I feel you loose something by shooting that way. But thats just me. Cant argue with the fact that it seems to be far more accurate.
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Kyle, what is it that you feel you loose?
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i,like incog. am wondering what you find so offensive- ,please don't take offense,i don't mean any thing derogatory-,about the style.like i stated,you lose a little perforance ie speed,maybe 4 or 5 fps,from the forward creep.plus instinctive shooters might have a little advantage on a fast moving animal.but my friend,if anything makes ma a better archer,i will try to overcome any hurdles in front of me,to achieve that goal.JMHO.best regards,robert :thumbsup:
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The answer is no not all the people that win tournaments shoot like that. Some of the top competition shooters I know use a subconcious/instinctive aiming method. This is for 3D though. I doubt many long distance instinctive shooters can hang with a point of aim system.
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i guess what i believe you loose is the "romance" of it all. To me, there is something so pure about picking a spot and feeling everything line up the shot subconsciously. Everyone who shot point of aim would walk up to the stake, look through there binocs, look through them some more, stare at the target, come to full draw, aim, and release. I supose it just reminds me too much of shooting a compound. Im in no way trying to down anyone who shoots this way and as i have stated previously, it seems to be a superior method for target shooting. I just personally dont care for it.
Kyle
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I agree Kyle I believe a stickbow should be shot instinctively but I dont care how anyone shoots really as long as their shooting good but that is my opinion im not trying to offend anyone cause their are some great shooters like Byron Ferguson but then again Frank Addington JR is an awesome and he shoots instinctive so it all boils down to what you want.
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I hear ya Kyle......
Like the difference in scoped hi-powered rifle shooting and shot gunning for birds.
Anyone else remember the Olympic gold medalist that went hunting on a TV show and missed his 1st two or three deer? I do.
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I don't see much difference between using a sight pin for a sight and using the point of an arrow for the sight. You are right on Kyle.
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OK, I understand now.
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They are target shooters.In the IBO rules for traditonal class,is longbow only,you have to shoot split finger,riser at least 1/8" off center,wood arrows,no face walking.For recurves it was called recurve unaided,but there you compete with the aluminum risers,carbon limbs,any type of arrow,3 under or split.Hard for a traditional wooden recurve to compete in that class.
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whats so wrong with 3 under? i shoot this way because it gives me the best release and is the more consistent way for me. i also shoot by picking a spot and giving it a go. not picking a fight because i havent been at this for more than a year, but what is wrong with shooting 3 under? a couple of you have mentioned it.
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It's nothing against 3 under. Lots of people shoot 3 under gap or instinctive. This is more about why you choose to shoot traditional gear. It's really not even about point of aim. There's an innocence (so to speak) that's lost when scores outweight the satisfaction of a well placed shot that "just happens". It's a difficult thing to explain. Kyle described it as "romance" and he is absolutely correct. The whole history, attraction, and self-statisfaction just seems lost when you put a score to it.
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Kyle,
I noticed the same thing here (Arkansas). But hey, if it allows a person to shoot better, then why not. My opinion is that some of these 3-D shoots are getting so competitive its almost no fun anymore. Usually, its the same group of guys in the state, and I guess it is very important for them to win a trophy. I've seen guys throw their bows, cheat and act like spoiled brats because they've missed shots. However, that is usually the exception. I've become very particular in the shoots I attend. Toss the scorecard & have fun.
Bob
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I shot a 3D competition last week end.
All the shooters that placed highly shot point of aim or some veriation of it.
During lunch I spoke with the guy that won the day,about his aiming method.
He told me he used point of aim but it was slighly different from the POA method I use myself.
After getting as much info as he was going to pass on the conversation turned to hunting and he mentioned that when hunting he often switched from POA to instinctive with out any thought or planning,much like I do myself.
So all in all a pretty good day,I placed 4th myself picked up some good tips and reinforced my longheld belief that POA and instinctive are so closly related it's going to be the archer that can recognise and utilise both that is always going to be the better archer in any given situation.
It often looks to me that people from both sides of what is a pretty stupid argument,seem to think the other guy "can't" use both methods.
A guy might prefer instinctive,he may prefer POA,but if your compeating against him it's a mistake to think he can't use both.
Because ALL the better shooters I've ever met, can!!
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JRY309
IBO allows 3 under. Those rules were changed a while ago.
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i stated i shot point of aim,3 under,to clear up my style i shoot point of aim,gap,and i was shooting a 50# longbow in the state championship,i'm 57 years old and holding 50#s for a couple of seconds is nothing like looking down a compound with a 15% let off.but i say,do what ever it takes to get the coon and have fun,to each his own,do what ever it takes to get you thru the day,its all archery.best regards,robert.N.C. 2007 senior traditional indoor state champion :campfire:
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WOW! is this for real? or are you just trying to psych me out.
Competition is good, it is, what makes it fun. don't you remember when you where a boy and you said to your best "friend race you to the water fountain" it was fun, and still is fun to compete.
The only reason I could think of why your not having fun, is, you keep getting spanked, and yes that would get old, but there is always someone who is better, faster, smarter etc... we must keep striving to get better.
People are people, all you have to do is watch any professional sporting event including the Olympics, you will see pros acting like idiots
Mr.Starkman, why do you keep your score? you don't have to keep your score, you can shoot and not keep score any time you like? why do you wont me, not to keep my score? I have a blast competing with others it's what drives us to get better.
How would you know if you where getting any better if you never kept your score, the score is only a way to measure your accuracy, the Competition is with your self, the score only tells you how you measure up with the other competitors.
Mr.Starkman, George S. Patton Jr. would jet-slap you, for what you said. LOL :smileystooges:
KyleAllen, Sir I find this score of 198 out of 200 unbelievable, you are talking, TOP OLYIPIC GOLD MEDAL scores and if that's the case, you cant compete.
Most trad shooters can't hit the broadside of a barn if they where in it, it's a disgraces to traditional archery to see some of the scores people post, and that's at a 3D tournament where the target is not moving and you can take as much time as you like, vary little, if any adrenaline to mess with your head.
What I would love to see is, WE as a whole, would increase our accuracy and strive to be the best shot we possible can be, we owe it to the animals we hunt, they deserve a quick clean kill with a will placed shot into the spot your aiming at.
I am not looking for a fight, but this is just amazing to me, if you cant master instinctive shooting, maybe you should shoot with pins, it's OK, the instinctive police wont arrest you.
Please, don't use the excuse "I shoot instinctive and that's why I suck as a shooter.
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Im not apposed to gap shooting or POA but will you really be as accurate in a hunting situation? Lets say you know your gap at 20-30 yards what if you misjudge the yardage and you think your animal is 20 yards but it could be 22 or 23 are you going to shoot lower possibly pulling a brisket shot? Or if your hunting something bigger then a deer you may hit over the lungs in a non vital spot this may seem unrealistic but the possibilities are there.
With smaller game like squirrels for me its harder to judge distance im not sure why but it is for me. Could someone shed some light on my opinion on the hunting distance with POA?
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Kingwouldbe, Whoa! Easy their cowboy. I wasnt trying to ruffle any feathers. "Please, don't use the excuse "I shoot instinctive and that's why I suck as a shooter." Anybody recall me saying that? Anybody who has ever seen me shoot will tell you that i am a fine shot. I win our local league shoot WEEKLY!! But i aint here to pat myself on the back. It was just my first experience with this style of shooting and it blew me away at how consistent they were. I was merely curious to see if others had observed the same thing. Sorry if i pissed on your parade.
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2blade,if you can't judge your distance's out to as far as you will shoot at an animal,you don't need to be in the woods shooting at them,thats why ever since my old man took me into the woods at 10 years of age and had me shoot at leaves,stumps,rocks,pinecones,ect,ever chance we had,so i could "instinctivly"know the distance to an object of aim.regards,robert. :campfire: :coffee:
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I agree with the target/hunting- sighting/instinctive shooting styles. POA or whatever on the targets and instinctive in the woods. That is how my grandfather did it back in 50's-60's when he still competed. His Root target bow was set up with a sight, his hunting bow was bare. Seems as though it would be best of both worlds.
Out of curiosity, do any of you do this? If so, is the transition from target/sighting to instinctive/hunting difficult, or not too bad after some shooting?
Thanks for thoughts and information,
Steve
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Originally posted by KyleAllen:
Kingwouldbe, Whoa! Easy their cowboy. I wasnt trying to ruffle any feathers. "Please, don't use the excuse "I shoot instinctive and that's why I suck as a shooter." Anybody recall me saying that? Anybody who has ever seen me shoot will tell you that i am a fine shot. I win our local league shoot WEEKLY!! But i aint here to pat myself on the back. It was just my first experience with this style of shooting and it blew me away at how consistent they were. I was merely curious to see if others had observed the same thing. Sorry if i pissed on your parade.
KyleAllen, no pissing on my parade, I'm not even having a parade today, LOL, maybe next week.
"I shoot instinctive and that's why I suck as a shooter".
No, I don't recall you saying that, It was me who said it, It's for those who the shoe fits.
Obviously, your the "LOCAL PRO" who wins every week at your LOCAL shoot. :scared: )
I am a bow-hunter, I only shoot 3d's to keep my shooting skills honed for hunting.
I learned real quick if you spend all this time stocking an animal and miss it, you suck as a shooter, so I set out to become a great bow and arrow shot, I have mastered the bow.
My statements are for all of us, not just you, when I go to a shoot and watch some of the shooters, they flat out suck, they should never be allowed to hunt with a bow n arrow.
They come any where near full draw and an explosion go's off, bow arm drops, drawing hand fly's and no one knows where the arrow went.
The bow has mastered them, they have not mastered the bow.
I don't care what STYLE you use, gap, point of aim, etc... the goal is to hit what you aiming at, in the field and at the range.
Some just yank back on the string and hope and pray, they have not disciplined themselves to take control of the bow.
My goal here is to help others take control and responsibility of there shooting, I wish every one was a great shot, it can be mastered, it just takes time and discipline to master it.
Some folks just love to shoot an arrow, but have never taken the time to learn how to shoot properly, they have no accuracy, it hurts me to watch them shoot, it's sad.
Hopefully, I have expressed my self correctly.
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first let me apologize for some of my above statements,sometimes i say something befor i speak,LOL,THIS IS FOR YOU 2BLADE,,as kingwouldbe stated,great shooting,accuracy can be mastered,it takes time and practice,practice,practice,and the first rule for me is never settle for "fair"or "not bad" or mediocre accuracy.most people would settle for putting 12 arrows into a "pie plate" at 20 yards.if you can do this why not go for a tea cup.i know most people work and don't have the time to shoot 2 hours ever day,i am fortunate to be able to.also the expense of buying arrows to see if just a tad weaker or stiffer spine will help can be a strain on the pocketbook.you can go so far with changing point weight.but to truly get all you can out of yourself and your bow,you have to go the extra mile and never settle for,wow thats pretty good shooting,go for thats "awesome shooting" sometimes i will take a dozen arrows 31" long and cut them 1/2" at a time down to maybe 28.75,playing with different point weights each time trying to find the best combo i can.so why not experiment and try to be a better archer,but by all means have fun while doing it,and to the guys that the bow has mastered,if they will let you without becoming offended,give them a tip or two,of course when it comes to advice,my ole pappy use to say,"son,a wise man don't need it,and a fool won't heed it".just some ramblings from a wondering mind with "sometimers" diease. :campfire: :coffee:
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We shoot a wide variety of distances at our shoots for Trad.I dont think POA whould be helpfull, pins whould help, wheels whould let you use less pins,why not a relese aid and a rangefinder.Simple works for me! Thats why I shoot trad.and I KEEP SCORE!
Mike :archer:
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kingwouldbe, let me apologize for jumpin on ya little. I took your first reply as a personal attack, which i can see now that it wasnt. So i apologize. I was not trying to put myself on a pedestal by saying that i win our local shoot regularly. I was just trying to express the fact that i dont suck, lol. Me winning is exactly why i wanted to start going to bigger shoots. I wanted to find more competition. Well i found it!!! lol. I am constantly trying to improve my shooting, and i believe 3d is just the tool for the job. There was a time when i was tickled over straight 8's. Now i want straight 10's !!! I do feel that POA shooters have a slight advantage over instinctive, but it will only make victory taste all the sweeter....one day!
regards
Kyle
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kyle,i don't beleave any one took serious offense at any thing you said,i know i did't.i will pass on a little secret.any time you can shoot with some one who is a better archer than you,do it,observe their style,pick their brain if they will let you,and most traditional shooters are happy to share theories, technics,ect.take what you think will benefit you,and leave the rest behind.remember,you are the only person who can truly defeat you in the long run. :thumbsup: :archer:
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John57 and Steve P, make good points :archer: :clapper: ...Van
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I was reading Fred Bear's Field Notes. He mentioned that the missed a few times. I guess he sucked as a shooter and hadn't mastered the bow.
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I'd almost as soon put chew marks on the choke tube of my 12 gauge as get into an instinctive versus gap versus point of aim argument. But if you're goal is to be a competitive target shooter, then learn the rules of your venue, push them to the limit and develop a shooting style that maximizes your score. That's the way the game's played.
If someone outscores you, try to figure out why they performed better and use that information as a a tool to make you a better shooter, not as a laundry list of excuses why you lost. Instead of saying, "yeah he beat me, but he did this, that and the other thing", say, "this is how he beat me, and maybe I should give it a try myself." Unless the people above you on the results list broke the rules, the words "yeah but" should never come into play when discussing how they won or why you lost.
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I guess my previous post did sound sorta anti-score, anti-competition. That's not what I meant. I'd just rather shoot with the guy who blows up on release and laughs about it while looking for his arrow than the guy whose score is so important he acts like a three year old that dropped her top scoop on any shot outside the 10.
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Molson,
No doubt. But there's also a happy middle ground. Being a serious competitor is no excuse for an unsportsmenlike attitude.
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I have to agree with Jason. Be it archery, Highpower rifle, softball, raceing or just about any competitive sport, If you want to win, watch to guy thats winning and do it like he does until you find a better way. My old little league coach use to say " were out here to have fun, but I aint never had fun getting my butt kicked" DB
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It sounds as if you are already a great shot. Straight 8s is something to be proud of. You're already one of the few. I'd say you have mastered the bow.
Now you just have to decide how important winning one of those bigger shoots is to you. If you want to master their style, the info is easy to find.
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Originally posted by roknjs:
I was reading Fred Bear's Field Notes. He mentioned that the missed a few times. I guess he sucked as a shooter and hadn't mastered the bow.
Point well taken, yes, we all miss, mastering the bow does not mean you never miss, come on ROKNJS you know that.
I apologize, suck, was too strong of a word ( but when I miss, it's the first word that comes to my mind. LOL )
I think it means you have great skill or you can be consistent, that's all.
Jason R. Wesbrock, Man, well put brother.
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I live in this little spot up in the Rocky Mountains. We rarely see a 3D target. Do an awful lot of stump shooting, summer and winter.No one worries about the other guys style. We just make lots of sawdust, bust a lot of arrows.....and manage to arrow enough game for winter meat. It's a way of life. Bow'narrow
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Im not a target competitor, im just a bow hunter who likes to practice on 3d shoots, lol. So i guess i shouldnt even care about winning, but da gum if im gonna be there i might as well TRY to win. Jason R. Wesbrock, you did make some very good points my friend. If i wasnt so darn hard headed i might actually give it a go. Everybody knows who ricky welch is right? Well if you ever get a chance to talk to him or shoot with him, ask him about kirk fox. See if ricky dont tell ya bout a few "instinctive" tail kickins, lol. Kirk is the best shot i have seen....ever. Coincidentily, he is also the man who taught me to shoot. I figure if he can beat POA guys, then i can to. But hey, im just hard headed like that :D . I hope no one got the wrong impression from my question...which turned into a debate.
Best regards
Kyle
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Good post Kyle. I've considered switching styles to be more competitive, but I'm like you..."a bow hunter who likes to practice on 3D."
Kingwouldbe, I'm very competitive by nature, but have seen all to often that in winning some people have lost in the end. It's either their dignity, frienship, or fun. I'm beyond that now...good lord! I'm starting to sound old.
I don't think anyone here throws their bow when they miss, so I'd shoot with you fellas anytime.
Bob
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Iv'e never chunked a bow, but I have chunked a golf club or two.
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Just curious,what is the minimum/maximum target distance at a trad 3-d shoot?
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if they have traditional stakes then about 25 is the furthest. Ocassionally some pushing 30
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Interesting.
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Robert Honaker,
Where I live 2/3 of the shoots don't have traditional stakes so you shoot the same distance as the compound guys - 50 to 60 yards on some shots - in many shoots. Some guys complain but everyone shoots the same targets so it all washes out in the end. I've found the same guy that shoots best on the traditional stake type shoot also shoots the best on the long yardage shoots. I guess good shooting is good shooting and a good shot can perform at many different yardages!
BTW - All the best shots I've seen use a reference, whether it be point of aim or gap. Unfortunately (or by choice) I haven't been able to do that, I shoot instinctive, without any conscience reference, and I've got tons of second and third place trophies.
Later,
Scott
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very well said Jason! ;^)
after being a recent convert to a gap method (nearly 28 years of shooting instinctive) i can say that it does become second nature and i can still shoot just about as fast as i ever did but it does take time to get there. i made the switch to eliminate those "off days". no worse feeling than climbing into a stand or calling a bull and having that feeling where you know your focus is off that day. i still have off days but now the groups open up an inch or two instead of looking for arrows in the grass LOL. i'm not saying it is for everyone but it never hurts to be diversified and adaptable. ;)
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x2 on the golf club
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Our local 3D series has a max distance of 35 meters for longbow and recurve.
At my club I shoot the same stakes as anybody else,yellow stake max 20 meters,blue max 40 meters,white max 65 meters,red max 80 meters.
We have to shoot 400 or over three times before we can shoot from the next stake out.
I made my 3rd 400 off white today so I can go out to red now.
The catch for me is that at my club you get recognition for "nothing" unless your shooting from red,but shooting 400 off the white was so hard for me I don't know if I really want those extra 15 meters.
On the other hand we have several free style compound shooting members that say "no barebow shooter is good enough to make it to red "so I realy have to work on my point of aim even more, an prove em' wrong.
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I have shot a trad bow for a long time and really don`t care how anyone else shoots. I learned to shoot instinctive because I thought it would make me more " automatic" when it came to wild game. It did.Most critters I kill I can`t remember the release on. I`ll see the arrow as if in slow motion and it goes where I`m looking. I miss sometimes but when I hunted with a rifle I missed then as well.I will say I average 10-15 deer and pigs a year and I may miss twice at the most.I`m not trying to brag just saying that not all instictive shooters shoot like crap like someone mentioned in other words earlier.As far as targets go I once won the HosreCreek state Trad shoot scored 10-8-5 with a score of 482 with a longbow and wood arrows, fifty shots.I bought the longbow that day because one of the fellows from Florida told me a recurve was for girls.A lot of guys at trad shoots do shoot bad but they are not hard core trad hunters they are just having fun Don`t judge all Instictive shooters by these few . In my experience most people that live it can put the arrow there when it counts.RC
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Nice Post RC.......I agree 110%!!!!!
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I typically use split finger for most shots but on multiple arrow shots shoot three under or Apache style. It's all personal preference.
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I would say IBO from the Trad stakes at such short distances is little to do with aiming choice, if I used POA on a 3D at 20 yards. split fimger my arrow point would be somewhere on the ground 3ft in front of the target.
IFAA Bowhunter rounds aiming styles like Gap, POA do start to play a part because it's shot out to 60y with average Deer shots around 40 to 50y and GAP, POA aiming methods do offer better consistency over Instinct on shots past 40y.
This is one of the reasons I use all the aiming methods Instinct, Split-vision and POA, I would say the people who win tourneys win because they have excellent form and deal with tourney pressure better than others, the aiming choice is just a small part of their success.
A lot of talk on some other Forums making a really big deal about Ricky Welch shooting instinct and kicking Gap shooters butts, Ricky wins tourneys because he has fantastic form and if he decided one day to switch to Gap he would still win because he has fantastic form.
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I've know a man in my area for 40 years who is the best shot with a hunting bow of any person I've ever met. I've never discussed with him how he aims but he can flat out hit a target or game animal. He also is a very successful hunter and is a local legend.
He shoots split finger.
His anchor is fairly high.
He has a slightly hunched style.
His form hasn't changed in 40 years.
He's the best shot I know and he doesn't use the latest gimmick or method to shoot a bow.
When he shoots 3-d he misses once in a while but blames himself, not the bow, spine, arrows, equipment.
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What RC sayed.
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My new years resolution: practice my multiple arrow shots.
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Wow, this is a great thread with something for everybody.
I believe that those who shoot instinctive, are actually, whether they know it or not, using their arrow or something on their bow as a reference point. A great trad archery shooter once wrote, "the only truly instinctive arrow shot is that persons' first arrow". After the first one, your brain will use some sort of reference to increase your chances of hitting the target, be it consciously or unconsciously. I just make it easier on my brain and aim with reference(point of arrow) rather consciously!
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Well, here are my 2 cents ...
I was once told that the journey is more important than the destination.
Why is it that instinctive shooting has to justify itself again and again? Because somebody can shoot more accurately with "point of aim" or with a compound bow, or a crossbow or with a rifle?
You can substitute "point of aim" with compound bow, or cross bow and I guess it would be the same argument ... these devices or aiming methods allow you to shoot more accurately with less training.
I can pick up my crossbow and can shoot pretty accurate. Take it once to the range to make sure the sights are still good before hunting season opens ... and that's it for practice and training. But then… for me, this is not what I call fun ... and that’s why my crossbow sits in the closet and collects dust.
I think most of you will agree that it takes definitely more time and practice in order to shoot a traditional bow well. How many years have you guys been practicing/shooting?
Now, I would presume that it also takes more practice to shoot a longbow well instinctively than shooting it with "point of aim". But, I guess we can argue this ...
What I know … I have never won a tournament and to be honest I do not care much about winning. But I have a lot of fun shooting my longbow and shooting instinctively, and I am out at the range every week. And yes, I might still be standing in this barn that I cannot hit. But I hope this does not make me a disgrace to traditional archery as it was mentioned earlier.
I would suggest a bit more respect for those that have chosen the hard way … and for who most of the journey still lies ahead.
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look yourself in the mirror.. When you are happy with yourself, Then you are there.. Please only yourself.
The way you shoot, its YOUR choice..
I got a whole bunch of Titles,, Who cares ? but me...
Simple stick and a string , And I got, The ARROW where I wanted it..
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Originally posted by BigCnyn:
look yourself in the mirror.. When you are happy with yourself, Then you are there.. Please only yourself.
Nice run of wins there Big Cnyn.
You're right 10 years from now the only person that will remember is YOU, so doing it for you is first goal in Archery.
If you're happy with yor shooting you're already a winner.
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Over the last year I have just shot with a thumb draw i.e. Mongolian release with the arrow on the draw hand side of the riser. I actually shoot better with the thumb then I ever did with fingers and the arrow truly is out of your sight picture. It is kind of strange at first but without the arrow on the draw hand side I can focus on my spot better.
I am also having alot of fun with this style and I guess that is what is important.
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The main thing is that, if you hunt with trad gear, you owe it to the quarry you're pursuing, to shoot accurately and consistently. If you can't do that by shooting totally "instinctive", then I believe you should search for a better way to aim your arrow so you can hit your mark in a more consistent way.
If you don't hunt, then don't worry about it.
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Originally posted by ishoot4thrills:
The main thing is that, if you hunt with trad gear, you owe it to the quarry you're pursuing, to shoot accurately and consistently. If you can't do that by shooting totally "instinctive", then I believe you should search for a better way to aim your arrow so you can hit your mark in a more consistent way.
If you don't hunt, then don't worry about it.
Yep I agree but when tourney shooting I think the same applies as you should also consider your ability for other Archers safety.
A few years back I had a relative novice shooting a borrowed 60# unsighted Compound, he was spraying arrows everywhere but the target, one shot went throught safety net like knife through butter, after 6 targets I stopped him shooting and asked officials to take charge of him.
Everybody misses targets but if you're missing more that you hit you need to stay away from tourneys till you've mastered your form a little better.
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just goes to show ya there is a HUGE difference between fixed distance target archery and hunting.
entirely two different animals.
if yer a bowhunter, everything about your archery should be aimed towards real life hunting and not paper punching.
the only archery events i bother attending are those with unknown distances. that sure humbles the targeteers with their gap-point-sight-whatever aiming systems, and levels the playing field. better yet if the yardage is kept under 35/40, to truly simulate hunting.
amazing that so many decades later, the nfaa, which started out as a roving/training organization for bowhunters, has become so target oriented.
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
just goes to show ya there is a HUGE difference between fixed distance target archery and hunting.
the only archery events i bother attending are those with unknown distances. that sure humbles the targeteers with their gap-point-sight-whatever aiming systems, and levels the playing field.
Think it all depends on your background, I started out shooting instinctively at unmarked rounds and when I began shooting IFAA marked Field rounds I just added Split-vision\\gap and POA to my aiming on top of instinct.
I never lost my unmarked skills and shoot equally well at international marked Field and unmarked 3D tourneys, if anything I think the marked field rounds helped me shoot unmarked 3D better as more discipline is required to shoot 4 arrows at each Field target.
I've seen more than my share of Bowhunters shoot poorly at unmarked 3D tourneys then tell me shooting at fur makes them suddenly shoot better, the truth is good form and well learned\\practiced aiming system (instinct or otherwise) equates to consistent, accurate shooting in any arena.
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I disagree With you Rob.
"if yer a bow hunter, everything about your archery should be aimed towards real life hunting and not paper punching."
I bow hunt as well, and I use the "Paper Punching" to fine tune my SHOT,to a razors edge. I can then trust my SHOT to work flawlessly, when I am burning the hole.
I have titles and animals on the wall.. Which are more important to me? Neither, they both are the result of lots and lots of work, and enjoyment. I took the animals with stealth and diligence, one shot,,(So far) the trophies and titles, The time and energy expended to focus that shot to become that Champion for the year.The 3-d is a chance to see Similated hunting, ( some shots are just wrong,) but, we shoot them as the way they are set-up, the scores let you evaluate YOURSELF with a number. Set a goal, or shoot hit, miss, wound. What is your ethical number? 75%-90% kill shots. you look in the mirror.
Do I miss, heck ya, do I make a bad shot on paper, heck ya! Do I make a bad shot at 3-d, Heck ya but, that's why I play the game. To Some day not make that one bad shot, and in the process, have a blast doing it.
I shot Instinctively for years, I shoot with all sorts of methods now, shoot whats needed, and Be True to Yourself that you have worked and KNOW that it can be done..
I had a friend ask me once , " Are ya Hoping or Knowing? when you shoot your shots.."
Are you? (everybody)
I see guys using Instinctive as a crutch,, They don't shoot worth a damn, and say "instinctive" like a ally ally ox in free,, learn to shoot and practice, but don't blame the way you shoot as the reason to hit or miss.. You brought it, You Shoot it.!
I know where my arrow is going..
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i hear talkin' ya bigcnyn. i was a devout target archer for over 2 decades (60's and 70's, recurve fingers and compound release), and all my targeteering ain't had much at all to do with my hunting. just two different animals, pun intended. doesn't at all mean one should disregard consistency and accuracy. perhaps to each their own, and that's cool, too.
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But what you are telling others is .. ALL that experience you have had before in shooting has not helped you in hunting? and I beg to differ, you gained TONS from it. Whether you can feel it, see it , or not.. So that maybe is what others are missing. We are a Society of I want it Now, Scores Trophies, whatever, and not have to work for it.. that's my point.
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i dunno brian, maybe yer taking my typing somewhat out of context. there's archery and then there's bowhunting. of course there's a definite correlation. but surely there can differences in venue, weather, attire, acquiring a target, form, gear, etc.
add into the mix how realistically well you can shoot with consistency and accuracy - not the years you've had behind the stick 'n' string, that can mean total squat. i truly believe that if yer serious about bowhunting, be honest with yer shooting and rove with yer hunting tackle. look at the reasons why redlands was formed - now look at the nfaa, yeesh.
sucking yer way through a georgia swamp, wet, tired, bugs up yer nose, crouched behind a rotten stump, drawing, aiming on a piggie 13 yards away broadside whilst squinting through the foliage for a clean release and arrow flight - that ain't got much to do with yer typical archery event ... though some, like the muzzy can sure take it to the next level for a bowhunter.
as always, ymmv - and that's cool by me!
:wavey:
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
that sure humbles the targeteers with their gap-point-sight-whatever aiming systems, and levels the playing field.
Rob considering your were a tourney shooter and the way you talk about tourney shooting now, you sound like an ex smoker I used to know. :rolleyes:
shoot straight :D
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Originally posted by zetabow:
Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
that sure humbles the targeteers with their gap-point-sight-whatever aiming systems, and levels the playing field.
Rob considering your were a tourney shooter and the way you talk about tourney shooting now, you sound like an ex smoker I used to know. :rolleyes:
shoot straight :D [/b]
like i've already said, stephen - punchin' paper and killin' critters are two different animals.
got nothing at all against targeteers, they is what they is. heck, i'm still one of 'em! and i can still pull string and hold my own with the AAA shooters in my town if need be. however, my approach to the target game is MUCH different than my approach to the killing game.
as always, ymmv. :D
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Wow do you think there is anyone out there that can shoot targets well and kill animals? Since Mr Hill has passed I doubt it.
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Originally posted by foamkiller:
Wow do you think there is anyone out there that can shoot targets well and kill animals? Since Mr Hill has passed I doubt it.
absolutely. mr hill was a celebrity, and there are any number of archer-hunters who aren't celebs that are in every right as good, if not better, than he.
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Sorry Rob but I couldn't resist saying that....BTW I had my tongue so far in my cheek I bit it. LOL! I mean no disrespect to the great archers of the past but some people need to realize that there are some awesome shooters out there today.
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Originally posted by foamkiller:
Sorry Rob but I couldn't resist saying that....BTW I had my tongue so far in my cheek I bit it. LOL! I mean no disrespect to the great archers of the past but some people need to realize that there are some awesome shooters out there today.
:D right on, dan!
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Regarding to what many people said about doing what makes you best. If using POA or gap makes you best and you think you should use it then use it. The recurve can have slightly better performance than the longbow than use it. The compound can have better performance than the recurve then use it. The rifle can have better performance than use it. The finely tuned target rifles can have better performance than use it. With the "if its better than use it" mentality where do you stop? Wouldn't you just go to the pinnacle of technology and use it? Traditional archery is about having fun and keeping it simple. That's why we shoot bare bow and we don't use compounds. It's not about maximizing your accuracy because if it was then this forum wouldn't exist. It would be about the brand new rifle with it's unparalleled performance.
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I was at the Eastern sports outdoor show a few years ago and there was this guy giving a talk about hunting adventures. He was pretty interesting. Someone asked him what kind of shooting he did to prepare for hunting. He said he shot regular bullseye targets. Said he just pictured the gold right in the middle of the vitals and tried to put the arrow in it.I doubt if any of us could match his bowhunting success. Oh.... His name......
Chuck Adams
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By the way , Bobby Jones was better than Tiger Woods and Howard Hill was the best longbow archer that ever lived.IMHO
Ike
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I shoot Spilit vision and instinctive.
I belive very few people shoot gap in the manner described by people like Rod Jenkins.
I do very well in local competitions because I don't get very involved with aiming methods,I just know what works for me and I do it.
I use bino's on targets when their allowed,their not for helping with range estimation,their so I know exactly where the 20 ring is.
Knowing exactly where it is helps me a lot in picking my spot,,,guessing where it is doesn't.
I've spoken to hundreds of die hard instinctive shooters over the years,,,they all seemed to be more interested in the process,rather than the end result,,,,I've never understood that.
I've had them try the old "hunting" line on me,,,until they find my hunting success rate is very good.
That old hunting/target thing goes both ways,its not just good target shooters that can be very poor shots on game.
I've been both a hunter/target shooter for over 30 years and I think I've seen it all as far as missing animals is concerned,and the aiming method has "nothing" to do with it.
In fact I personaly belive aiming,weather it be instinctive,split vision or gap,,is one of the lest important elements of any experienced archers form,,,yet perople still make a huge deal about it.
I say that because I personaly don't think about aiming at all,everything I do revolves around executing the actual shot well,aiming just looks after it's self,as it should,I've done it a million times at every distance I can shoot at.
About the only concession to aiming I'll even consider is that pure instinctive works very well at short ranges,while split vision works over all ranges,,,,,,just like Howard Hill said so many years ago,an I ain't arguing with Mr Hill.
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Very good post Earthdog, I've found this in recent years, maintaining aiming skills is the easiest part of shooting and good repeatable shot sequence is the most difficult part of shooting and needs the most work.
Yesterday I did a tourney with a different Bow, it shoots quite different from my normal Bow and had no time to zone in because I was setting targets and stakes, the first 10 shots was quite difficult because my focus was very much on synchronizing sight picture with where I wanted arrow to go on the target, the result was my focus was too much on aiming and my form suffered a little but once I got my sight picture right I could just let the aiming take care of itself and my focus was on solid shot execution, that's when I started to really nail everything.
It was a good reminder and clarification on how my mental process works best for me. :)
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Originally posted by cbushee:
Regarding to what many people said about doing what makes you best. If using POA or gap makes you best and you think you should use it then use it. The recurve can have slightly better performance than the longbow than use it. The compound can have better performance than the recurve then use it. The rifle can have better performance than use it. The finely tuned target rifles can have better performance than use it. With the "if its better than use it" mentality where do you stop? Wouldn't you just go to the pinnacle of technology and use it? Traditional archery is about having fun and keeping it simple. That's why we shoot bare bow and we don't use compounds. It's not about maximizing your accuracy because if it was then this forum wouldn't exist. It would be about the brand new rifle with it's unparalleled performance.
I get what you're trying to say, but what's wrong with "maximizing your accuracy"? Is it not every shooter's goal to be the best that they can be with the weapon of their choice, be it rifle, shotgun, or a stick and a string?
If it's a trad bow, it doesn't matter matter how you aim or shoot, just as long as you shoot good enough to please yourself. Regardless of your method of aiming, you still have to practice regularly to hone your skills to a satisfactory level for yourself, and to maximize your skills to the highest level if you choose to hunt. I, myself, chose to try something different than "totally instinctive" when my results were less than satisfactory, both for myself and for the animals I hunt.
Oh, and by the way, I still enjoy deer hunting with a shotgun loaded with slugs shot through a standard single beaded "bird barrel" during modern rifle season. Not because it's so much "better", but because I still enjoy hearing the gun go off and the excitement of the first day of gun season. (Maybe I should take the bead off of the barrel because it's too much like aiming, after all it is a "bird" gun designed for pointing instead of aiming. I wouldn't want to "maximize my accuracy") But, I also take my longbow instead sometimes. So, I guess, "that's where I stop" is with the shotgun.
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I agree with ishoot4thrills. For me, it’s about being the best shot that I can be while using the equipment that I enjoy; nothing more, nothing less. There are many different ways of shooting barebow. I’ve string-walked, shot point-of-aim, gap, split vision, and instinctive. Eventually I settled on one method that works best for me on paper, 3D, and bowhunting.
Just because someone is a good paper-puncher doesn’t mean they aren’t proficient on animals anymore than good bowhunters are lousy on targets. No, bowhunting isn’t target archery, but the two disciplines are far from mutually exclusive.
I spend a lot of time at a local indoor range shooting groups into little circle targets. In the summer, I’m usually shooting into paper targets outdoors on a field course. Judging by the contents of my freezer, I’d say being a paper-puncher hasn’t exactly handicapped me when it comes to killing wild game. It hasn’t messed up my unmarked yardage 3D shooting either.
If anyone thinks being an instinctive archer isn’t conducive to winning target rounds, I can name at least two members of this forum who’s trophy rooms would prove otherwise. And if anyone thinks being a gap or point-of-aim archer is a handicap to bowhunting, I can name a few such people with more money in taxidermy than I paid for my truck.
The bottom line is this: what works for one person may not work for someone else. Find what works for you and do it. Just don’t confuse your individual experiences for a universal truth.
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Just don’t confuse your individual experiences for a universal truth. [/QB]
Well said :)
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"Just don’t confuse your individual experiences for a universal truth." X2
Jason...that about sums it all up right there :thumbsup:
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Shooting 3D I shoot as fast without snap shooting as any instinctive shooter.
If It wasn't for the fact I tell people I shoot mainly Split vision,there's no way anybody could tell the difference.
I think there's a lot of people like me,but some of them keep their mouths shut just to avoid the arguments.
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Originally posted by Earthdog:
some of them keep their mouths shut just to avoid the arguments.
Think you're right, I never cared what others thought, for many years a small number of (mostly Hill style) Archers have complained about my aiming and equipment choice (all within tourney rules) I figure it's their problem and not mine.
One year a National tourney I was at the stake ready to take a shot and this guy came over from another target and started to shout at me that my Bow wasn't legal etc etc, I just told him not to bother me and go and speak to an official.
It seems they way of things, they just can't accept that I shot well because I worked really hard at my shooting, these Archers are always looking for some other reason other than the most obvious.
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It never seems to be the winners that moan and bitch does it. We all have a degree of choice in what we shoot and how we shoot it. If I want to practice 5 times a week, work on my form and try to get as good as I can be, why should that bother a guy who only picks his bow up a couple of times a month for an open shoot. He chooses his way I choose mine, yet when I beat him he moans about my bow or "target" style aiming method.
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It never seems to be the winners that moan and bitch does it.
I had a guy at the European champs last year, first day he took the lead, second day he shot a great score on a very tough course (Welsh Mountains) and I shot 30 points more and a new European record and took the lead, he started making complaints to officials that he wanted my Bow inspected again, they checked and said nothing wrong with the Bow, later he came and gave an apology and I told him not to worry, the next day he pulled out from the tourney he was 3rd place at that time, he gave some excuse that he had to move campsite because of the weather but seemed a strange excuse to pull from a tourney. I even offered to see the officials to see if we could wait for him while he sorted his camp gear but he declined my offer.
It's a shame when the winning becomes more important than the shooting, that attitude can spoil the fun for yourself and everybody around you. I feel for the top shooters that setting an example of good sportsmanship is more important than the actual winning.
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Just because someone is a good paper-puncher doesn’t mean they aren’t proficient on animals anymore than good bowhunters are lousy on targets. No, bowhunting isn’t target archery, but the two disciplines are far from mutually exclusive.
Post of the thread!!! :clapper:
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Personaly I like this debate. I am I gess a gap shooter in sorts. I do walk my face and hold 3 under. Now I find it funny when I get greef for my stlye,but I am not offended. I did shoot instinctive for years so I do understand and belive it helps me with how I shoot now. For hunting most of my shoots are 25 and under and I shoot with both eyes open. It is still mostly instictive style shoot the arrow is still in the sight picture but not used as a mark. Longer yardges I do use an aim system. In my area I am lucky to even see another trad shooter most don't shoot 3-ds or at local ranges so I end up shooting against myself, evan at the state level. I shoot 3-d's where tagets can be out to 60 yards so the gap shooting helps me. It is fun to watch compounders faces when you hit your target at that range,not that I do every time. I have a long bow that I still shoot instinctive split finger and cedars and is alot of fun. When someone teases me for gaping I just switch to instinctive and still shoot good. I don't do it to inpress but to show there are many ways to shoot. I rareley ever turn in a score card unless the is a drawing for door prizes. I shoot for myself and no one else, if I don't like a shoot in a 3-d I will take a 0 and move up to where I can shoot it. I belive shoot how you want, just have differant classes.
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It's a shame when the winning becomes more important than the shooting, that attitude can spoil the fun for yourself and everybody around you. I feel for the top shooters that setting an example of good sportsmanship is more important than the actual winning.
Good comment Zetabow. Most of the top shooters I have encountered are very gracious and sporting but there are some I have come accross that are the exact opposite. Life and every sport has them I guess.
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I run into the opposite.
Shoot in a Barebow League, Shooters show up, all seem to be the TRAD clan about 13 of them. 1 compound guy, 3 string walkers and ME, full blown target rig, v bars, long bar elevated rest, big arrows, ANCHORING, 1 anchor point..
I shoot a 274 15x, and I overhear a trad'er say " but look at the NORMAL" shooter scores?
What the h#!!,
I shoot daily, been to some shooter schools, and I am the outcast? cause I shoot ok?
folks need to grow up..
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Originally posted by Incognito:
Iv'e never chunked a bow, but I have chunked a golf club or two.
Hey man there aint nothing wrong with that sometimes those damn clubs get outta line an need to get a little persuasion.. Lol
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One thing I like about living in Europe is good shooting is respected regardless of style, I've had many compliments from Compounds, Barebow etc about my shooting.
I know one top shooter, he's quite a nice guy but when he's in a tourney I really don't like his attitude (not just me) bit like some people when they get behind the wheel of a car.
Think you have several kinds of competitors, one that has to tell himself and everybody around them they're the best and will likely do just about anything to win and those that love shooting and a win is just the icing on the cake, the latter tends to consistently do well in tourneys over a long period where the other types tend to be one hit wonders and tend to crash and burn in a spectacular way at some point.
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havn't read all the posts but for me personally if i have to use the arrow or anything on the bow to hit my mark i lose the reason i shoot traditional bows i don't like aiming i will never win any tournaments but i am accurate enough at the ranges i plan on shooting at animals,i shoot split and shoot fast and love it!
shot a 15" group at 55 yds with my robertson recurve the other day 4 arrows,a note all the tournaments that i go to are won by 3 under gap shooters as far as accuracy goes it is a great way to shoot!
for me if i ever start aiming with the arrow i'll go back to wheels!
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I don't think we should think of aiming as a dirty word as if aiming is only for compounds or rifles.
I also don't think we should think of instinctive a some magical way of shooting that just happens because we are in sinc with ourselves and the target.
There will alaways be arguements and discussion about what is best and why.Just learn to shoot well whatever it takes.There is no nobility in missing in a better way.
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rnharris,,I like your style,I wish everybody could say it like that.
Just one thing though,if you were to come to NZ,you would find the NZ longbow champions in NZAA,IFFA and 3D all shoot split.
I'm actualy one of the few who shoots recurve 3 under,,but I do shoot longbow split so I'm not all bad ;^)
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Selwyn for me aiming just dosn't work,if everyone shot the same wouldn't that be boring lol
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Most of my compatetors use the point of there arrows to aim,they need to know yardage and as long as their arrow is on the target they are good,I am an instintive shooter and when I get them off the target I pick up points,Its all fun.
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Originally posted by Humming:
Most of my compatetors use the point of there arrows to aim,they need to know yardage.
Knowing the yardage helps gap shooters get even better accuracy but sometimes terrain doesn't allow for accurate distance estimation, this doesn't mean the Gap shooter is lost and cannot hit the target, things like experience and feel for the arrow trajectory also come into play (same as Instinct) Howard Hill was Gap\\Split-vision shooter and he was one of the best Bowhunters ever.
I have very big short range gaps, 28" below at 20 yards so tend to shoot these short targets Instinctively and use Split\\gap between 30-60 yards where I will reach Point-on distance and switch to POA shooting for shots out to 80 yards.
Having such a big short range gap is a pain but adapting my aiming method to suit the type of shot presented has allowed me good success on short range 3D as well as long range IFAA Field shooting.
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Everyone but everyone aims...some systems are more efficient under some circumstances than others. If you are using a stick and a string then whatever works best for a given situation is the way to go.
I use point of aim for 10 ring indoors, I use instinctive out to about 35 yards outdoors and beyond that switch to poa. If you don't use the best available method within the confines of trad or barebow thats your choice but don't whine on those that do. Good shooting is good shooting end of story.
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Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
I agree with ishoot4thrills. For me, it’s about being the best shot that I can be while using the equipment that I enjoy; nothing more, nothing less. There are many different ways of shooting barebow. I’ve string-walked, shot point-of-aim, gap, split vision, and instinctive. Eventually I settled on one method that works best for me on paper, 3D, and bowhunting.
Just because someone is a good paper-puncher doesn’t mean they aren’t proficient on animals anymore than good bowhunters are lousy on targets. No, bowhunting isn’t target archery, but the two disciplines are far from mutually exclusive.
I spend a lot of time at a local indoor range shooting groups into little circle targets. In the summer, I’m usually shooting into paper targets outdoors on a field course. Judging by the contents of my freezer, I’d say being a paper-puncher hasn’t exactly handicapped me when it comes to killing wild game. It hasn’t messed up my unmarked yardage 3D shooting either.
If anyone thinks being an instinctive archer isn’t conducive to winning target rounds, I can name at least two members of this forum who’s trophy rooms would prove otherwise. And if anyone thinks being a gap or point-of-aim archer is a handicap to bowhunting, I can name a few such people with more money in taxidermy than I paid for my truck.
The bottom line is this: what works for one person may not work for someone else. Find what works for you and do it. Just don’t confuse your individual experiences for a universal truth.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Excellent Jason :clapper:
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I don't think there is anything wrong with scoring or competition. For some folks it is a good game and test of their shooting process. I thought I was an instinctive shooter from 1969-1981, I wasn't. I was a gap shooter. Gap shooters see (whether they will admit it or not) the arrow point and the target. To prove the point you will notice the gap change when you move from say 20 yards to 30. Most of the "instinctive" shooters knew at what distance their bow was "point on" -- at what distance they could put the point of their arrow on the target and it hit right there -- instead of holding under or over. I think a real instinctive shooter is very rare. String hand set (split or 3 under) doesn't matter in either system. See the bowstring, see the arrow point, reference the target. Then take your mind off the target and concentrate on an active bow and drawing arm as you think about your drawing arm elbow moving rearward via back motion to "follow-through".
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Loved what Jason had to say. I must admit that I've enjoyed this thread very much!
To each his own!
Good luck to all this season
Travis
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I've read all the post on this and I agree with Jason. I don't really even know for sure what my style of shooting is. I shoot a few 3d shoots but mostly practice in my yard and roving shooting at whatever. I'm not the best target shooter, but when an animal presents itself, I just do what comes naturally and most of the time the animal comes home with me. I think people should shoot whatever style they are most happy or proficient with. I'm 57 years old and have been shooting tradional since I was 8. That's just my 2 cents worth.
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Originally posted by bolong:
I think people should shoot whatever style they are most happy or proficient with.
I agree, lot of people trying to put you in THEIR own version of what archery should be.
I've shot every type of Bow from English Longbow to Compound, I recommend more Archers trying more styles, maybe we would all have a little more understanding and respect for each other in this sport. :)
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I know a long armed fellow that shoots with a very short draw form, three under, pulls the arrow to his eye and can only shoot at deer 15 yards or less away. He gets his deer regularly. We went after some pheasants and he could not shoot without loosing control of his arrow, when he tried to shoot faster. What he does for deer works for him and by most shooting form methods it is completely wrong and very limiting. Although it is tempting to try to get him to change, if he is happy with his timing limitations, what's the point. However, if he wants to start hitting longer targets or flying pheasants, there are a number of things he should change. It is good to compare a wide variety of experts' methods to help make informed decisions. My target form worked for targets, not so good for the way I ended up hunting, but I do admire those who can shoot good groups on paper with hunting equipment at long ranges. Way back when there were some that hunted deer with light target bows and target bowsights. There is nothing slow about some of the old target bows, mine was faster than most hunting bows ten pounds heavier, but I couldn't hunt with it. I thank John Schulz for showing me what would work best for me.
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I beleive it was compound shooter Mary Hamm who said that "proper" form has become proper because it its the easiest way to shoot an arrow over and over. We shoot with both feet on the ground because it is more easy than shooting with one foot in the air. That is something to think about, it is easy to get lost and tie your self in knots with all the theories about shooting. But it should be as simple as possible. And for me, target archery is a great help to learn to repeat a good shoot over and over again. And as an instinctiv shooter, I can hold my own against target experts with point of aim systems. But I´m not sure there I am really an instinctive shooter, I see the arrow in secondary vision but don´t set a gap, it´s more like Byron Ferguson´s method of seeing the path off the arrow. But Zetabow and Ron LaClairs method sounds the best to me, to do what ever the shot calls for.
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Markus I feel my gap is now closer to instinct than what most Archers consider normal Gap, I still see the arrow (always will) but 90% of my aiming focus is where I want the arrow to hit, and I rely a lot less on distance estimation nowadays, I draw up and my subconscious knows if the sight picture is wrong, a bit like a slightly wonky picture hanging on a wall, your subconscious picks up the mistake and sends an alert to the conscious that something doesn't quite feel right.
When learning Gap it's more like 50-50% aim split between target and arrow and feels kinda awkward during this learning phase but as your confidence grows reliance on looking at arrow is less and accuray increases, funny but in some ways I feel like I've come full circle from my old instinct aiming days. lol
I've heard the term Gapinstictive and think this is what to top gap shooters end up doing after a while, as far as I can see you end up with the best of both worlds. :)
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I am a instinctive shooter and most all of my compition is with point aiming shooters,but they need to know yardage and shoot best when their point is on the target,when they are too close or the target is too far most have troble as to where to hold the point that is when I pick up points.Last year at the IBO World womens first place was won by an instictive shooter with longbow and wooden arrows verses point of aim shooters with recurves and carbon arrows.If I wanted to shoot sights and guess yardage I would shoot compound,lots more money it.
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Where I live hunting season basically last from Sept to the end of December. But I like to shoot bows...so the rest of the year I shoot 3d or Paper. I dont see a reason to despise one over the other.
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I dont understand why why everybody has to judge or throw their shooting style around like you need to defend it.If it works for you great. If someone else doesnt like it thats tough. Just keep on keepin on & let others bicker or argue that theres a right & wrong way to shoot. I believe we need to embrace all shooting methods to bring us together as tradional shooters. It seems that all some try to do is judge or demean others style. We need to help each other not single out each other.
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:clapper:
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These fellas are not wing shooting and are not shooting moving game.........which I am not advocating.......but they are target shooters. And although they can kill game with this method, it is a much more clunkier, and regimented form. Instinctive shooting is by far the way to go for hunters. If you like 3d shooting and want to be as good as the rest, then shoot this method. If you want to have every advantage in field chasing game, shoot instinctive. YOU CANT SHOOT AN ASPIRIN OUT OF THE AIR AIMING DOWN THE ARROW.
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Proper detication and proper alignment are what most all great shooters had in common. No mater if the canted or held verticle - Instinctive or Gap.