Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: TSP on May 20, 2007, 01:49:00 PM
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Hi, all. Looking for opinions here. Which of the following (A or B) would you think makes more sense for an annual 'traditional championship' shoot? Basic overall rule is no compounds. Primitive class is the same for either approach.
APPROACH A.....Longbow, Recurve and Primitive classes. The first two allow any arrow and any non-compound bow. No sights.
or
APPROACH B....Target, Hunter and Primitive classes. Hunter class requires arrows weighing at least 10 gr/ lb. of draw weight, bows with non adjustable limbs, and no mechanical rests. Target class would basically be 'everything else'.
For Approach B only the eventual class winners would have their arrows weighed...otherwise its the honor system on arrows. To check arrow weight the bow weights are assumed to be whats marked on the bow.
So, which approach do you think would be best for a championship trad shoot, and why? :readit:
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When talking arrow weight you will lose a lot of shooters.I for one won't be there.
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I would think the A option will draw more shooters. Some guys cant even tell you how much their arrows weigh...
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"A" sounds a lot less complicated. Pretty straight forward. No frills... limits are obvious for a "Traditional Shoot". I think it will draw a good number of folks.
To me... "B" is borderline "splitting hairs". Target archers usually compete in "Target Matches", not Traditional Shoots. I think a lot... if not most "Primitive Archers" would consider themselves "Bowhunters". And as far as "Arrow Weight"... who really cares. Once an archer sets his bow up... just like Ron mentioned... most don't know, nor do they care about their arrow weight. This alone could eliminate a lot of potential "fun seekers".
For example... some fella might have a wife who couldn't participate simply because she can not pull a hunting weight bow. The bow that she goes out and shoots with her husband is only 25# and she is only shooting 300 a gn. arrow. So... if she cant participate... why would the husband want too?
Also... when you start counting grains... ya kinda fall into that "What is Traditional" category. Next thing ya know someone is crying because someone else is shooting a carbon arrow, or carbon backed limbs. Most everyone seems pretty comfortable with "No wheels, and No Sights". Just keep in mind that no matter what you do... someone aint gonna be happy. So... try to make it "Fun" for the majority!
I would attend your first approach. Sound more fun!
Donnie
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I've shot in several shoots where the classes are,
recurve, modern longbow, longbow, selfbow. Modern longbow is for folks who shoot aluminum and carbon arrows. How the course is set may determine if it is realistic to hunting situations or if it favors target archers (i.e. wide open broadside shots).
Bob
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A.
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I think the long bow class should be wood only, just to stay close to traditional as possible.
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A sounds better to me. I agree about the splitting hairs thing.
Here, it is generally:
Recurve means any recurve OR longbow, and arrows out of any material. No sights or release of course, and no stabilizers.
Longbow means any longbow, and wood arrows only. Again, of course, no sights, etc.
So if you want to shoot carbons or alums out of your longbow, you can, but you have to register in the "recurve" class.
As for primitive, I've only ever been to one shoot that had primitive for a class, and I don't know what the requirements were, but I figured my take-down pronghorn wouldn't fit! :p To me, that makes me think self bow, or maybe a laminate but with little or no rest, and wood arrows only.
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"A" sounds better to me. Personally, I never understood why some shoots require wood arrows in the longbow class. I could understand for a primitive class, but other than that it never made any sense to me.
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3 classes that would be (1)longbow only,wood arrows,shoot split finger
(2)recurve,any type of arrow,split or 3 under
(3)primitive,selbows,no glass,wood arrows
No sights in any class thes are some basic rules for a fair competition.But also you can shoot want you like say longbow with carbon arrows just don't turn in a score just shoot for yourself satisfaction and have fun.
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I have to say that I go to a GREAT shoot every year.....
"The White Mountain Traditional Bowhunters Rendezvous" in New Hampshire
They have 3 classes.....
Primative - Wood self-bow shooting wood arrows
Traditional Wood - Any recurve or longbow shooting wood arrows
Traditional Open - Any recurve or longbow shooting any type of arrow material
NO SIGHTS are allowed in any class,there is also a Womens Open,and 2 youth classes (under 10 and 10 - 16)
I shoot a hybrid R/D longbow,However.....I prefer to shoot wood arrows. I also have several 1960's Bear recurves that I like to shoot. Personaly I believe that arrow material is a bigger factor in performance than bow type/design.
Just one old guy's thoughts.....
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Thanks for the replies and suggestions.
By the way, the reason for the proposed departure from the conventional Recurve/Longbow class setup is threefold:
1.) The performance difference between most longbows and recurves today isn't nearly what it used to be...the former have caught up due to design changes, R/D,, etc.; and
2.) Modern barebow target gear (target-style adjustable bows, new materials and very light arrows) logically give a 3-D scoring advantage over normal trad huntinmg bows and mid to heavyweight hunting arrows, the norm for most shooters; and
3.) Since this wouldn't be a 'just for fun' shoot (annual state championmship...a competition) it seems logical to pay more attention to what gear is used to try and promote fair competition.
Anyway, your opinions are appreciated. Keep them coming...some of the ideas are pretty interesting and it'll offer more food for thought on what makes a good championship trad shoot. :thumbsup:
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Set your classes anyway you see fit. They key for any shoot is to draw participants. Exclude people and you leave participants out. We are talking traditional/stickbow now, everyone comes for different reasons. If the prize means that much to you by all means make it really restrictive. The majority of us go to have fun, let us. I dont win many shoots, one in the last 10 years, two shooters. I still go and compete in the class/es that the promoters allow me to shoot in. I have shot everthing except primative
in the past. I shoot a Dalaa this week something else next week. Allow me some fun by having a class for me to shoot in with my stickbow, be it a selfbow or a FITA Recurve(off the shelf of course).
The only time anyone carps about equipment is local shoots. The deer dont care and the game department wants it to be legal. The Big Shoots we will go and compete under the rules stated.
If you dont like the rules/classes you dont shoot. Compounders cant shoot at Hickory this weekend, rules are rules for the State Traditional shoot. Simple is as simple does.
Estacado
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"A" would be my choice as well
Steve
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2.) Modern barebow target gear (target-style adjustable bows, new materials and very light arrows) logically give a 3-D scoring advantage over normal trad huntinmg bows and mid to heavyweight hunting arrows, the norm for most shooters
What you see as a target bow and target arrow. Others may see as top of the line hunting bow with a fast arrow. I dont want to get into the whole arrow weight debate but if the bow is legal for hunting in your state you should not consider it a target bow.
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I can understand that folks have their own personal opinions about differences between target and hunting equipment, sometimes strong ones. Thats fine. But if posting a response to the initial question please simply answer the question without attitude or condecension. I'm just trying to sample whether competitive classes based on differences in arrow weight and/or arrow/bow technology might be more accepted by participants than differences based on the general recurves/longbows approach. Please don't make it into more than that. :archer:
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I like "A". I think arrow weight opens the door for controversy and would be a headache. Bottom line....I go to shoots to compete with myself. When I'm done I decide if I'm happy or not with my score. Never been to a trad shoot that I did'nt have a ball. Can't say the same for when I shot compounds.
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A
All the gear in the world won't make you the best shooter. The most expensive either. I will bet 99% of us don't go to a shoot to win. We go to be with our fellow stick shooters, and have a fun day. And I will also bet, 99% of us do just that. I could care less if the guy shooting with my group is shooting a Hoyt GM, with a springy rest and a short stabilizer. If thats what he wants to shoot, have at it. He will probably shoot a little better than off a shelf. But if only he has done his home work. But if he is not as good as you or me, he is still going to get beat.
I go to have a fun day with my friends. Not the Olympics.
Brent :campfire:
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Tom A seemed to answer the "why" part of the question.
I would not attend a shoot with "B" rules for the reasons he gave. Someone could be shooting a 540gr arrow and be put in the target class cause he shoots a 60 lb bow.
JMO
Steve
Steve
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I vote for A but also hope you have a guest class for someone to shoot something different. I shoot tournaments with my hunting bow with quiver and arrows attached. This is illegal in our California shoots but I don't care as I just shoot in guest class and am not eligible for any awards. I would vote for letting as many people shoot as possible. I don't care about awards, just practicing for hunting season.
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Perhaps I should clarify because there sems to be some confusion. I'm speaking here of a shoot INTENDED as competition...that is the main PURPOSE of the shoot...to compete against other shooters. Yes, we do have shoots just for fun...no scoring, winning doesn't matter, etc etc. But not this one. So if you don't care for competitive shoots then this thread might not be one for you. But if you do...carry on. Ideas are welcomed.
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A, got to separate longbows from recurves.
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TSP. You could check out the IBO's break down of traditional classes and use something similar. The equipment rules they have do a pretty good job of evening the playing field out. Possibly for an all trad shoot you might also add a selfbow class.
http://www.ibo.net/Rules/
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For those who replied constructively, thanks for your input.
Would have liked to get more responses but based on what's here its clear that of the two choices "A" is prefered, mostly because its simpler.
The most surprising aspect is that folks don't seem like competitive shoots to begin with (competitive isn't 'fun'). Kinda' makes you wonder why there's so much emphasis on fast bows and arrows these days if most everyone wants to compete only against themselves.
All good food for thought when it comes to setting up trad shoots.
Thanks again.
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A...Longbows, modern longbows(Hybrid), recuves,self bows...thats all ya need ...125 grain tips would be find and is the norm , most shoots! no metal , compounds, or gajets...that works for me :)
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Given the limitations in your original post, A would be the preferred class. As others have said, weighing arrows would open up a can of worms for everybody.
If you want to distinguish between classes and "level the playing field" so to speak, you might try this:
Recurve Open: Any arrow (carbon/aluminum)
Recurve Traditional: Wood arrow only
Longbow Open: Any arrow
Longbow Traditional: Wood arrow
Selfbow: No laminations or glass
Then if you feel the need, break those down to Men's and Women's and Cubs Class. I think you'll find that in many instances, the scores between the classes will be very competative. If fact, many times I've seen the wood arrow classes have shot higher scores than the carbon/aluminum class.
Danny
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I like that approach, Ric, but even if we went simpler than that and just had 'Open', 'Traditional' and 'Primitive' classes I don't think my club would buy into it. Since rules are a touchy subject here (and heaven forbid separating classes by arrow type, lol) the best approach might be to forget about competitive shoots and just shoot 'for fun'. A little boring to do that for every shoot but the replies suggest thats what folks want.
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I like "A" also but I also think that Hybrids do not belong in the same class as say a Hill bow for a "competition". I think that competition and compound sound very much alike and most trad shooters that I know could care less about it - the fellowship meens more! Just my $.02 worth.
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Ken, I don't think competition in archery needs to be any less enjoyable or less popular than it is in any other sport. I mean, who doesn't like the challenge of matching skills with others who practice the same sport regardless of what the sport is? Shooting for points can be as much 'fun' as stumpshooting with friends on the back forty. But, I do think you're right about the equipment aspect. Other things being equal its much easier to be consistently accurate (score points) with advanced bows and arrows than it is with the older styles...thus the reason we separate recurves from primitive, don't use Hill bows and wood arrows in the Olympics, etc. etc. I guess thats why I thought arrow weight (heavy arrows are harder to shoot high 3-D scores with than are light arrows regardless of bow type) might help even out the field a bit at shoots.
I'm not really sure why having a few rules to even out the fairness aspect equates to taking all the 'fun' out of shooting, but apparently for many it does. I do like the idea of separating wood (heavy) and carbon (light) arrows and Hill-style bows vs. DAS/Warfs/GameMasters types when it comes to competitions. Thats not a cheap shot at any particular type of gear. It just makes the competitive aspect fairer in the overall by having similar "stuff" compete against each other similar "stuff" without undue advantages/disadvantages involved...not unlike whats done for car racing, boxing matches, firearms competitions, etc. Some might say that if competition is the goal then its up to the shooter to use the most advanced gear they can get so they can maximize their chance to win. Maybe, but all that does is universally favor hi-tech at the expense of low tech...not a good thing in my view.
Its hard to find a middle ground on this stuff without one group or the other crying foul...either being called a traditional elitist or a techno-geek, lol. I think thats the source of alot of needless friction between stickbowers these days...refusal by folks of each persuasion to recognize and accept differences in gear not because one or the other is 'better' but for the sake of fairness and common sense in comparing, using or competing with that gear.
Anyway, thanks for your input.
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I like A up here in Canada the FCA shoot rules
are as follows RU unaided any recurve or long bow and any arrows but I believe it has to be shot off the shelf and traditional long bow which requires wood arrows and 125gr or higher pionts. But my opinion is if some one is serious about competing he will have the best gear for competing but others like me that are just out to have fun make friends and practice for hunting should shoot what they love nad just don't worry about what everyone else is shooting. Also as a side note the last couple years the top canadian trad shooter over both classes shot a longbow with wood arrows. Just my 2c Delin
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Delin, wouldn't that approach mean that folks shooting bows not equipped with the most advanced target accessories and materials (maximum win potential) are all apathetic about competition? That sure isn't the case in my experience!
I think what it comes down to is that gear used for the purpose of competing should be grouped based on their normal capability to shoot accurately while leaving the skill aspect up to the shooters themselves. I.e., base the approach on what the rest of the world does when scores, points, or order of finish intentionally matter. It equalizes the tools and lets the users, not the tools, dictate the outcome. NASCAR doesn't race pickup trucks against supercharged stock cars. Bench rest rifles don't compete against muzzleloaders. Stickbowers don't shoot the same 3-D class or stakes as open-class compounds. So why would DAS or Warfs (advanced barebow gear) shoot against your Daddy's off-the-shelf, heavy-arrowed hunting bow in a competitive venue? Makes no sense.
Yes, sometimes skill does overcome technology (as was the case with your longbow/wood arrow shooting canadian friend...sounds like he's an exceptional shot). But you have to admit that most of the time that is the exception rather than the rule. Again, this is not an issue that is addressed by taking sides and calling folks trad elitists or gadget jockeys. I guess I don't see the down side of trying to level the playing field at competitve trad shoots, in a fair, practical and 'fun' way, by applying common sense with a few simple rules.
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If you truly want to regulate equipment like Nascar regulates cars you would need to setup a shooting machine and set it to the persons draw length. Then use a chronograph to separate bows by speed and possibly a bare shaft test to see how well tuned the bow and arrow is.
You could then put the slow out of tune bows in there own class and put the fast “in tune” bows in another.
Or you could just set a few guide lines on equipment and let it be the shooters responsibility to acquire the best equipment that falls within his/her guidelines. Like most shoots are today.
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"If you truly want to regulate equipment like Nascar regulates cars you would need to setup a shooting machine and set it to the persons draw length. Then use a chronograph to separate bows by speed and possibly a bare shaft test to see how well tuned the bow and arrow is."
Tom, nobody said that NASCAR was the golden icon by which to model trad shoots. It was used as just one example of how the rest of the sports world, NASCAR being one piece of it, seeks to make competition fairly matched as well as entertaining. We're not talking about splitting hairs or creating a massive set of regulations here, just about common sense grouping of similar types of gear.
"Or you could just set a few guide lines on equipment and let it be the shooters responsibility to acquire the best equipment that falls within his/her guidelines. Like most shoots are today."
Exactly. Simple rules make sense. Fair and realistic equipment guidelines make sense. Settling differences by discussion and setting sensible boundaries to make a fair playing field and maximize shooter participation...make sense. The problem is that few agree on what 'sensible' rules should be. In fact, some don't agree that they are needed at all. My own club leans towards this mindset and resists even talking about constructive ideas for change. Its discouraging enough that some members might just say ta heck with it and find a better match for their time and interests. That appears to be happening at archery clubs and shooting events in this general area. Participation and interest is shrinking, even among longtime participants. I'm now beginning to understand why.