Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Doublegun on May 28, 2007, 07:40:00 PM
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Getting back into traditional shooting after several years with a wheelie. When shooting my compound an acceptable MOA was 1" for every 10 yards of distance. So a 2" group was considered good for 20 yards, a 4" group for 40 yards, etc. Is the MOA any different for a recurve? In other words, I started out at 15 yards and am getting pretty good groups. At what point (consistent group size) can I start moving back?
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Hey Doublegun, I have just recently started shooting trad as well. What I did is when I started shooting about 4" groups at 10 yards I switched from shooting groups to shooting 1 arrow at a time. I shoot 1 from 10, 1 at 15, 1 at 20, etc.. I vary my distance with every shot and I don't set a pattern. I practice all the way out to 40 yards. The farthest I would shoot at game right now is 20 but practicing to 40 makes that 20 yard shot seem like a cake walk. Have a good day and keep 'em in the middle, TMG.
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There are no barebow recurve shooters that can shoot minute of angle out to 20 yds... The fact that no one has shot a perfect 300 round in the barebow class proves it....
If you can double minute of angle you will win any shoot you enter....
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That's telling it like it is, Joel.
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As I said, I am just starting out here. No matter what you are doing in life, if one does not start off with realistic expectations one is more likely to get frustrated (unnecessarily) and give up early. I am just trying to set realistic expectations for myself.
With a reasonable amount of practice, shooting sub-MOA with a compound is pretty easy out to 40-yards. So far, I am struggling with consistancy with my recurve. Out of a group of 6-arrows I can usually get 2-groups of 2 arrows touching and the other two arrows somewhere in the general area (all within a paper plate) at 15-yards. From the perspective of a compound - that is pretty bad, but for a recurve????
Just trying to set a realistic expectation for myself. I don't expect to score any perfect scores, but I want to be able to shoot with confidence out to 30-yards by fall. What I have learned so far: FORM and CONSISTANCY are everything in this sport and the only way to achieve those is through daily practice while concentrating on form with every shot.
I owe it to my quarry to be able to deliver a humane shot and I will not draw back on an animal until I am confident that I can do that.
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Doublegun,
It sounds like you are on the right track. Shooting a traditional bow off the shelf without sights is not hard, shooting it consistently well is the challenge..
Don't let my above post discourage you, there are some amazing shots that can kill game across all distances. I have 100% confidence that you can become deadly accurate out to 30yds with traditional gear.... It will take a lot of work and dedication, but there are many, many hunters that do it year in and year out.
A good way to understand the potential of trad gear is to browse the IBO website and look at tournament results.... These are the best shooters in the world shooting in optimal conditions.
If you can hit the kill zone every shot out to 30yds you will win most tournaments and with a good sprinkling of 10's you will win all tournaments...
Consistency is often what seperates the elite from the rest of the group... There are tons of very good shooters that can shoot a round of 3-D and have 80+% good shots. However, it's that 20% that keeps them from being elite.... The elite archers rarely make a mistake, they are consistent on all shots....
The best advice I could give is to develop sound, repeatable form combined with a perfected aiming system...
Good luck and good shooting.
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Here is my take on hunting, in general. It is becoming a lost art. Today, new products focus on improved accuracy, longer distance and making hunting easier. That is crap. So now, a guy (or gal) can go out, buy a $500 inline ML, top it with a scope already calibrated for a specific load for that rifle, load pellets and a sabot and consistantly hit a target at 200-yards. Skill required - a mimimal amount; all that is needed is $$$. I had not picked up a bow in almost 25-years until I bought my Mathews. It took me 10-minutes to split my first nock and start stripping off vanes. (I could not come close to shooting that well even with months/years of practice with the compound I used 25-years ago) Skill - not that much. Just money.
I want to take a recurve into the woods this fall, hunt from the ground and see just how close I can get and strike quietly and confidently if/when the opportunity arises and I want to do it artfully. I owe that to myself and to my quarry.
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So what kind of recurve/accuracy have you purchased? I understand your point but feel you under estimate the skill required to make those shots IMO.
Seriously different traditional bows perform differently for different people just as in compounds, What one man can shoot lights out with another may have trouble keeping it on the target. Also as your form improves so will your ability to tune the arrows to the bow thus improving accuracy.
To answer your original questions,
1)I don't know of anyone who can shoot the same groups with traditional equipment and fully loaded compounds, same MOA. Grouping 4 inches at twenty yards consistently is good in my book.
2) I would say move back when you can group in a pie plate. Shooting longer distances will magnify form errors and make shooting shorter shots easier. Many of us practice 40-60 or more yards ON THE RANGE but keep hunting shots much closer, 15-20 yards is a chip shot when you know you can hit at 40.
After shooting you will know what range you feel comfortable with on the range making a killing shot with the FIRST shot, then subtract 5 yards and hunt with that, since the excitement of the moment my affect accuracy.
Good luck and keep flingin em.
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"I want to be able to shoot with confidence out to 30 yards by fall " is a bit unrealistic. I disagree with Double Creek a little. There are some hunters who can kill consistently out to 30 yeards with traditional gear, but not many. I've been shooting a stick and string for nearly 50 years, and in that time, I can count on one hand the number of stickbow shooters (with hunting, not target equipment) who can put 8 out of 10 arrows into a paper plate size kill zone at 30 yards, and that's on a range, under controlled/ideal condition. It's more difficult yet when shooting at game. Most traditional bowhunters take the vast majority of their game at 20 yards and in. That would be a more realistic goal to set for your first year. Good luck.
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This is why I ask the question. First of all, I have nothing but respect for anyone who can consistantly place arrows on a pie plate at 20-yards and I do have a healthy respect for the skill required to do so. Confidence at 30-yards may be a pipe dream but it is a goal. Realistically, hunting from the ground in woodlots, 30-yards would be a long shot even with a compound. I have watched similar threads as this on "wheelie" boards and most say that they kill deer between 12 and 22 yards.
Increased distances really does magnify flaws in form - even with a compound.
I am shooting a 1974 Ben Pearson "Hunter" (45# & 48" AMO) I just purchased an early 70's Kodiak Hunter (50# & 60AMO) which I should receive Monday. I am a sucker for the beauty of some of the bows from the 60's and 70's.
I'll continue to spend most of my time with the BP until I develop enough strength without being overbowed. Stopped at 3 Rivers Archery last week and picked up a dozen wood arrows and some pointers from one of the guys who works there. I am fortunate to be able to work out of my house so it is very easy for me to take a couple of breaks and fling a few arrows every day.
Thanks again for the discussion and advice. I hope to be able to keep coming back for more advice as I progress. Who knows, maybe I'll end up selling my souless Mathews and get religion.
Doublegun
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Trying not to be sarcastic, I think all of you need to back to shooting rifles!! In the real world you only get one arrow at any animal. When you can put that first arrow into the kill at distances under 30 yards, you've accomplished what your trying to do. get the MOA out of your thinking.
Bob
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aromakr, I agree with you to a point. I think the MOA in this thread is just to say what size group. When I shoot I shoot groups because I want to know what I can do EVERY time. I might get lucky and hit a quarter size spot at 60yds the first shot. If I can't hit very close to the same spot 5 more times it doesn't mean anything.
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I have recently started shooting and I find trying to shoot groups way more frustrating. I tried to get away from the target and started shooting blunts at a softball I would toss out at whatever distance it rolled to (10-25 yards) and shoot that with one arrow and found a higher success rate than trying to put it in the center of a target. Now I am shooting more at targets again but usually with one arrow and put it in a softball size spot most of the time from 10-20 yards. I am not trying to become a good target shooter but want to be able to put one arrow where it needs to go. Love stump shooting even more and find it to be the best practice, the woods here in the east are tight to say the least and judging distance and picking a clear path are added challenges that I think I will find while hunting from the ground.
So, IMHO, forget the MOA and take to the woods!
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All that being said, I also do practice grouping them and want for the day that I can slap arrows together consistently. But for now my first goal is to put the first arrow where it counts. Damn groups are like a speedometer on my bicycle, just keeps telling me how slow I really am! Lots of luck and keep practicing...
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R H:
AS far as I'm concerned shooting a group from the same distance and set of conditions only tells you that your are capable of repeating those conditions at that time in space.
When you can shoot fist size groups from 10-30 yards, each arrow from a different distance and different shooting position, i.e. standing,kneeling,sitting,leaning forward and backward, then I'll talk groups.
Bob
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As a bowhunter, the first arrow is the one I'm most concerned about, but it's the rest of the arrows in the group that let me know the first one wasn't dumb luck. ;)
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Aromakr,I agree practice should be all that you have said. I don't think anyone should stay at just one spot and shoot groups. However I do think that an accurate archer should be able to shoot a good group anywhere from zero to whatever his long range limit is.
Sometimes there are reasons an archer does better with one arrow at a time.It could be his bow is a little to heavy to get 6 or more shots off in a row without collapsing his form.Or maby he can't keep his concentration that long.Or some other reason.
Sometimes a group will tell me more than a single arrow. The last few days I have been fine tuneing for a 3D shoot and my groups have been centered about 3 inches left. I was able today to tune back to center because I kept a record of my group. I don't think one arrow would have told me as much.
As an archer I just want to be able to repeat a shot. It doesn't really matter if it is one at a time or 6 so long as I know I can make that shot every time.
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As long as you have the right quipment, tuned properly and matched, very few do, it is all up to you double gun on what accuarcy you will get, it is no longer the bow
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Whew! I don't think I've ever seen anyone draw that much fire for asking an innocent question on this forum. Okay so he chose the wrong acronym (MOA) and maybe didn't know how to phrase his question with all the right trad terminology. I also read what he had to say about people trying to replace skill with technology and my only thought was that this is someone I wouldn't mind sharing a hunting camp with. His heart and head are in the right place. I'll choose to answer his questions a little differently.
There is only one shot. The trick is to make exactly that same shot time after time. If you can master this you could be the next Byron Ferguson or Howard Hill. Most of us aren't quite that good. I know I'm not. But the day you quit trying to be better is the day you are as good as you will ever be. Be sure your bow and arrows are tuned to each other. The rest is up to you.
John
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Thanks, John.
Not trying to start a rukus - just wanted to make sure my expectations are not unreasonable. I still think I can get to the point where I can keep em in a pie plate at 30-yards by fall. Got to have a goal, right, and the exercise will do me good.
I appreciate your comment about sharing a hunting camp. I'll be hunting the forest around Grayling, MI probably along the S. Branch of the AuSable River. My camp will be easy to identify. I have two English Setters who help me chase grouse and a couple of old damascus double-barrel shotguns that keep me busy when not chasing deer.
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John, I agree man.
Doublegun, Howdy!
I am still new to trad also so, please take what I say with a grain of salt.
I've been shooting trad for probably 7 or 8 months. I asked the same question and I got a easy cut answer. Lets say you were shooting at something similar to a music CD. Aim for the very center, focus as best you can on every shot, work on form, have a tuned bow and arrow set up, try to hit the center, but if you keep it in the entire CD at all your ranges, you're doing good.
Thats what I was told (give or take) and I really like it. Me, I can get in a rut of putting so much pressure on myself that it's not even fun, I get frustrated, and end up shooting worse then if I was just relaxed.
I've been dealing with some shoulder problems the last few months so I haven't shot a whole lot and I'm not as good as I was. But I'm not worried about it, I'll get it back, hopefully quicker now that I'm getting a lighter bow.
Anyway the biggest part for me is to keep it fun, keep focused, don't get discouraged.
Have a great day, HH
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Makes me think of Ishi. He couldn't shoot paper to save his life. But what his life did depend on he could hit with proper accuracy. I never could understand guys who got the shakes shooting at game. I guess they can't figure out why I don't feel that calm shooting at paper.
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I'm confused about what you mean by MOA when referring to a bow. With a bells and whistles target compound, I would expect to hit the "X" ring on an indoor target (size of a half dollar?) about every time (58-59 out of 60). I would expect to shoot 2" groups at 40 in good conditions, maybe 1" at times. I can't hit a paper plate every time at 20 with a recurve, and haven't seen very many people that could. I would say that when you feel confident that you can hit a paper plate most times at a given distance, then you should move back and work on doing it at that distance. Very, very few traditional shooters can keep 8 of 10 arrows in a plate at 30 yards. No traditional shooter can even come within hailing distance of a good compound shooter at any range when TARGET SHOOTING, but hunting is a whole different ball-game.
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P.S.- Not trying to pump up the compound shooting or anything, just trying to say that your expectations with a trad. bow should not be quite as high. I quit shooting target archery because, even though I was good at it, I wasn't enjoying it. I can't shoot targets as well with my recurve, but it's fun. I would think that 30 yards is a pretty long shot with any traditional bow when hunting.
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Doublegun, welcome back from the dark side. As to accuracy out to 30 yds, I believe you can do that by fall, IF you practice a LOT. I'd say probably 5 to 7 days a week and twice a day. Your sessions shouldn't be too long, 20-30 arrows and 30 may be pushing it, but you'll need lots of sessions. You are developing hand-eye coordination and muscle memory and that only happens with practice. Remember too, that that the hand-eye and muscle memory will also develop with bad practice, so be sure to practice good form and focus (I mean FOCUS) for each shot. If you just shoot arrows you'll plateau early and not at the accuracy level you desire. Now as to hunting out to 30 yds, I wouldn't consider it even if I could hit a quarter 10 out 10 at 30 yds. There is too much time for an animal to move before the arrow gets there, changing a kill shot to a gut shot. Just not worth it. I know this is not you, but for that want to kill at long range, get a gun! The whole idea in trad hunting is to get close. That being said, I have killed a rabbit at in excess of 30 yds, but heck, you can just about scare a rabbit to death. Point here is, if you hit a rabbit anywhere you're likely to kill it. You only have a small area on a deer where you're likely to kill it. So, in a nutshell, practice hard or better yet practice well, get accurate out to 30 and hunt to 20 and you'll do fine and have a great time.
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No one will answer your question and no one ever does answer this one. I think people are ashamed of ther skill/lack of it. If I can shoot 6 inches at 25 yards with six arrows I'm happy. Anything inside of a foot at 30 yards is nice too. I wouldn't shoot a deer at 30 yards but I might take a poke at a moose-because the target is a lot bigger.
the chef
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I may be wrong about this, but I think my HH longbow and POC arrows shoot 1"MOA as equipment. That is to say the bow and arrow is capable of that tight accuaracy. I say this because, when I'm "on", I can hit a tennis ball or a bottlecap sized bull at 20 yards, on purpose.
I've done that, and even shot 1" groups at 16 yards. I'm not bragging 'cause I don't shoot that well all the time. But the tackel will do it.
That's why Howard Hill and Byron Ferguson demonstrated such amazing shots. They were shooting as well as the bow and arrow, consistently. Are aerial aspirins MOA?
My practice goal is to shoot as well as my bow.
That is one reason I don't spend all that much time on tuning. If my arrows are decent and properly spined, brace height in guideline, they fly straight, and when I'm "on" - they go MOA - even 4" at 40 yards.
Now I'm talking instinctive snap-shooting, like John Schultz demontrates in his Hitting "Em Like Howard Hill dvd.
The key is to shoot as well as your bow.
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"I may be wrong about this, but I think my HH longbow and POC arrows shoot 1"MOA as equipment."
Well, first of all I think we should define "MOA". It stands for "minute of angle" and calculates out to 1" at 100 yards. That would be 1/2" at 50 yards and something less than 1/4" at average hunting distance of 20 yards. It's generally a rifle term. Anyone who can shoot a bow that well please stand up. ;) But I think what GroundHunter is trying to say is that his bow is more accurate than he is although this statement makes me wonder:
"That is one reason I don't spend all that much time on tuning."
GH is one lucky man if his bow/arrow combo matched up to perfection without considerable tuning, especially since he is shooting cedars. Any arrow that porpoises or fishtails to any degree will not group well. Maybe his HH longbow is a lot more forgiving than the ones I've owned. Mine were pretty sensitive to arrow spine.
My intent here is not to criticize anyone but to hopefully prevent newcomers from having unrealistic expectations. A well-tuned bow with matched arrows shot from a shooting machine that eliminates the human factor and on a day with absolutely no wind will no doubt do really impressive things. But we aren't usually shooting these bows from shooting machines. It's us less than perfect humans that are the problem. Add in less than perfect tuning of the bow/arrow combo and the groups get worse.
So, to try to answer Doublegun's original question, to me acceptable accuracy is when I can put the first arrow through the heart/lung area of a deer at my maximum hunting distance of 20 yards. Is my bow capable of doing better than that? Absolutely! Do I try to do better than that? Yes. But that is the day-in, day-out minimum I shoot for. (Please pardon the pun.) That's what it takes to get the job done when hunting deer. Along the way I've made a few shots that just amazed me. Like focusing on the eye of a sitting rabbit and hitting the rabbit in the head for instance. I can't do it every time but it sure feels good when I pull it off.
Doublegun asked is he should be able to get good enough to make a shot on deer at 30 yards by this coming season. My suggestion would be to practice at 10 yards until he can hit near dead center of that heart/lung area every time. Then move back to 15 yards and repeat the process. Then 20 yards and so on. I'll never try for 30 yards on a live deer for a variety of reasons that include the fact that deer can move incredibly fast as Dave Worden noted. I believe the closer I am the better and that is the real fun of hunting with a traditional bow for me.
Have fun,
John
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Just started shooting the curve again after 30 years of wheel action and enjoying every minute
if your shooting area allows shoot more at 40 yds
than 20 you will find that your form and release
will have to be good to group arrows at that distance and 20 yds which is more like actual
hunting distance will seem like a piece of cake
enjoy Ralph.
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Just an update on progress. I think I am making progress. I am shooting 4-5, 3-arrow flights giving my back, shoulders and arms a chance to relax between shots. I shoot pretty much every day - not that tough to do. I am really concentrating on form and release - I can tell as soon as I release that I have made a good shot. The challange is the release. What I have found the most difficult is getting my right elbow back to 6:00 and engaging my back muscles through the draw.
So, what have I accomplished: Well, knowlege - I think I have a better idea about what I am doing and how to do it correct; my strenght is improving - getting me to full draw more easily and holding it longer for better concentratiion; and, confidence - that I am improving. Looking back on my comments - the ideal of 30-yard shots is really idealistic. Maybe on paper, but not prudent for hunting. Even with my wheelie, 30-yards from the ground would be tough in any decent deer cover. Still, If I can get my form to the point where I can consistantly group well at 30-yards, then my form should be good enough for humane shots at 10, 15 and 20.
I am really enjoying my recurves and learning to shoot. Thanks for the advice so far and please keep it coming.
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I'm still rather new to traditional archery but I am a competition rifle shot from national matches to the tactical marksman competitions.
As has been said shooting a 4" group at 20 yards is more like 20 MOA
Though when it comes to archery right now I’d be happy to get a 4” group ;)
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The first arrow you shoot is truly instinctive. The rest are based on the result of the first one. Trad Archery cannot be compared to other shooting discplines. It is not easy, but a hell of alot of fun.
Mule