Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: TaterHill Archer on June 21, 2007, 02:53:00 AM
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I have never shot a 3-D tournament, but I keep reading how elevated rests are prohibited at them, but I have never had anyone explain why. I know some say they aren't traditional, but that's just bogus or is based on a narrow definition of traditional. Can anyone shed some light on this subject? Thanks.
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I'm wondering the same thing. I have a Silvertip on order now, and it's going to be set up with the raised rest. Guess when I show up at a 3D shoot that doesn't allow it, I'll just have to throw my score card away after shooting!
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Game or competition rules need not make sense. They can be, and often are, arbitrary. The best example that comes to mind are the rules of baseball. Every rule is arbitrary.
Sorry I cannot furnish a sensible answer.
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I have always respected most of the rules in place at 3D shoots. After all, every sport has to draw the line somewhere in terms of equipment performance. However, I believe we've drawn the line in the wrong place when it comes to elevated rests.
The thing that frustrates me is that the REAL traditional bows from the "golden age" of the 60s and 70s–like the old Bears and Shakespeares–had flat shelves and were specifically designed to be used with elevated rests. Why we choose to essentially disqualify such bows is beyond me. I remember hunting with a recurve back in the 70s and almost every bow in camp had some type of elevated rest...usually brush rests or simple plastic ones like the Bear Weather rest.
This summer I'm making it a practice to encourage shoot organizers and 3D committee folks to take a second look at this rule. Polite conversation and solid reasoning can go a long way in getting such rules changed.
Personally, I'm a longbow guy so the shelf rule only affects me on the rare occasions when I shoot recurve. But it affects enough other people that I think it's time for this rule to be seriously reconsidered.
TM
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BM, I was just telling someone yesterday about the cover of the new Black Widow catalog that shows their bows from the last 50 years. Several of them are wearing elevated rests. SOOO, where does the whole "traditional" thing start anyway???
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The two "big" trad 3d shoots that I go to each year allow elevated rests in the recurve class.
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I haven't made up any rules, but what I think the rulemakers are trying to do is to limit the technolegy race. I have seen it in the shooting sports till you won't even see real hunting guns in sihlouette competition & that's what it was originaly designed for. Bottom line is if some technology is allowed someone else will say why not my sights,release,stringwalking,till eventually we loose what we started with. I know people who shoot aluminum arrows at a longbow shoot & just don't turn in a score card. They have as much fun & are fun to be with.
My thoughts are if you use an elevated rest in a class that requires off the shelf just shoot & have fun & don't turn in a score card. When you are at another club's shoot we need to obey their rules, that's just good sportsmanship. Frank
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Personally, I think the rule came from people who didn't have an elevated rest and were outshot by people who had one !!!! I certainly have to agree with Blue Moose since I'm still shooting one of those 1971 Shakespeares (bought new in 1971) with it's original elevated rest.
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Thanks for the answers. I suspect it comes from a very narrow definition of Traditional. No matter. I've been shooting off the shelf lately, so if a shoot comes my way, I'll be ready.
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Frank:
I have no problem with limiting technology in competitive events. It's just that I don't consider a $2.95 stick-on brush rest to be an example of "technology."
Also, I'm not as concerned with changing rules as with changing mindset. Many people see a stick-on rest these days and view it as untraditional at best and cheating at worst. In actuality, it's just setting up bows the way they were usually set up in the "golden era" of the 60s and 70s.
But I do agree with the spirit of what you're saying...I don't want to see traditional archery become a technological arms race. I just think we sometimes ban the wrong things for the wrong reasons:).
TM
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Blue Moose I do think we should stick to the rules & be good sportsmen & women. I do seem to recall seeing & shooting several original Jack Howard bows with what would be called elevated feather rests as original equipment. I don't think anyone would call Jack Howard bows untraditional. Frank
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at the distance the trad stakes are at, I can't see the difference between shooting off the shelf or elevated rest amounting to a hill of beans.. having said that, I shoot off the shelf, but if someone else likes to shoot off a elevated rest, I say let them have at it. At 25yrds and less, I don't think where the arrow sets is going to play a factor between 1st and 2nd...
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I think it is a matter for the club or group that sets the rules for their shoot to decide. "When in Rome..." Maybe we should all go really traditional and shoot off the knuckle? Can't get much more traditional than that.
John
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I think it is done just for fairness in competition, not because it isn't traditional. Each class causes different trophies and more cost.
Bows do seem to shoot arrows "cleaner" with an elevated rest. They are also associated with olympic style shooting which does not blend well with hunting "style"
MAYBE this makes some small amount of sense..just my take on it
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Once I learned how to tune a traditional bow properly, arrow flight was not an issue.
When I got rid of an elevated arrow, and it was closer to my hand, my shooting improved,.. alot.
As mentioned, some of the older bows with a flat shelf are much better off with a simple elevated
rest. If anything, I think it may actually be a handicap.
Even the new bows with the metal handles, and adjustments from top to bottom, still require the same skills to master.
If I miss a target, it has NOTHING to do with the fact that I don`t have an elevated rest.
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That was a good question, got good replies, that was cool.
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"As mentioned, some of the older bows with a flat shelf are much better off with a simple elevated
rest"
Yep. That's the reason I wish people would reconsider this rule. After all, why discourage the very bows that inspired most of us to take up archery in the first place?
TM
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I have to agree with what several have said, however there will always be rules! And not everyone will agree with all of them, that's life, live with it. I believe it was Blue Moose that said "Way back in the old days the 60's and 70's" maybe the problem is alot of you guy's are too young to remember the old days! The 70's is when the compound hit the market, not what I would consider the old days. Take a look at the old days the 20's to the 50's, you will notice they shot off their hand or the shelf.
Bob
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I think Keith hit the nail on the head a while back. Many clubs that have trad shoots are Bowhunting clubs. Part of the limitation is to use hunting bows, not strictly target bows. That's why our shoots in Georgia have minimum weights on arrows as well. Likewise, how many classes can set up? Get's expensive unless it is a huge shoot to have split the recurve class again to bare bow and target bow. Just a thought.
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How many classes do you have? That has been the technology/equipment battle for years. I believe boundaries have to be drawn. A club cannot afford to have awards for every differnent way someone could shoot. I think the biggest factor in the elevated rest ban is not the rest. It is the guy who shows up to shoot 3-d with a 35 pound hoyt machined riser target bow, gap shooting, and beats everyone. Does he hunt with that set up? The original intent of 3-D was to get away fro a bullseye and shoot at unmarked animal targets in hunting situations. Today many 3-D shoots are target archery with an animal target. Well if you outlaw elevated rest,it is unlikely that guy is coming back with his olympic recurve shooting off the shelf. Elevated rest are not the real issue. People want fairness and someone has to draw a line.
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If someone wants to shoot their hunting gear at a 3-D shoot, that's cool. But why would they care if a guy with a "target" bow gets a better score? I don't see the problem.
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If you are not competitive in the sport, I guess you would not care. If you are a competitive archer, and enjoy that aspect of 3-D then some equipment can have an advantage over other. In Texas we have the Texas State Longbow Championship. It is a great tournament. It is designed for competition, heads up. The equipment rules a strict limiting the size of the riser of the bow, wood arrows only, split finger release, etc. In turn everyone is on a level playing field as far as eqipment. No one has an unfair advantage due to equipmment. It is just ablity vs. ability. If competition is not your thing than, I guess you would not care. I have seen some guys that say they are not competitive, then worry about what they score on a round. There is also a place for just go and shoot with no score cards.
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When you try to define what is and what is not hunting gear. You are going to have a lot of issues. For one thing what about women and children shooting 10-20# bows? Are you going to ban them from shooting? A 35# machined Hoyt might be a little light to hunt with but I doubt it. A person with a 30" draw could turn that bow into a deadly killing machine. 40# is legal where I live. And a 40# machined hoyt bow is exactly what I hunt with some days. Others its a 48# glass/wood longbow.
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Well here goes, when I first started shooting,
3-D targets were just starting to hit the market. our club had the following classes, release compound, fingers compound, non-sight compound, traditional. This was all the classes, now we have. Now we have 5 Traditional classes. recurve open, recurve, longbow non-wood arrows, longbow wood arrows, primative. As long as we feel the need to divide ourselfs by what we shoot there will be no end to it. When 3-D Tournements really started hitting it big in our area, all the Top shooter were shooting Traget style bows for the class they were in. It's like showing up to a drag race and saying to the guy next to you "Hay what's up with running Slicks?" when your running street tires. If it's within the rules then why not take advantage of it? If your there to win....If your there to inprove you shooting skills for hunting then, just don't turn in your score card. It seems more and more, Traditional shooter feel the need to divide ourselfs by what we shoot......Mark
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Funny how the simplest little item can lead to such complicated issues:).
As someone hinted at above, the rule to prohibit elevated rests probably had little to do with the rest itself, but rather with the type of bow that elevated rests tend to be attached to.
In any case, that's my best shot at answering the original question at the top of this thread. Now I'm starting to remember why I went back to longbow & wood arrows;).
TM
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Blue....I often dream of the days when archery simple. Let's just go shoot and have some fun...
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Some good points. Those who suspect that elevated rests might be considered part of a target bow approach...and thus frowned upon in a trad setting (at least when shooting against shelf bows)...might be right. To try and accomodate most shooters in a COMPETITIVE shoot I don't see how the 'no dang rules, just shoot!' approach would work and still create fair competition. At the same time not all shoots need be laced with a 'gotta win' attitude. Competitive shoots can be fun in their own way, and no-score shoots can be competitive ('Bet ya' can't stick one in that coyote's nose, Vern'). So, best be careful not to get too "convinced" about expounding the attributes of one over the other.
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Thanks for all the input. Not sure I agree with all the ideas presented (i.e. a bow with an elevated rest is a target bow and not a hunting bow), but that's what makes the world go 'round. I used to shot an elevated rest, but they seem to wear fairly fast and mess up my tuning. Shooting off the shelf is more consistent for me.
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I might step on a few toes here,but I think what is referred to as traditional by many people nowadays was influenced by Asbell's books. Shooting off of the shelf, canting the bow, not using the arrow as a reference, emphasis on shooting from awkward positions - all taken from Asbell's books.
Don't get me wrong, I like the man's writing and have his books, but I think the timing of the introduction of his books as the stickbow movement grew lead to the idea that his style of shooting and equipment was THE right way to do it.
When you have people saying that using the arrow as a reference is "cheating" , something is wrong. For goodness sake, Howard Hill himself would not be able to shoot in some 3D events without people wispering about him AIMING. That's just not right.
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Having read Asbell's books, attended his workshop at Denton Hill, listened to one of his tapes, seen his video and read his TBM articles nowhere did I notice any contention on his part that his way is 'THE right way to do it'. On the contrary, he seems to out of his way to allow for shooters to choose what works for their own circumstance. He definately does believe that his method is effective, and he does provide detailed guidance for the how and why of his perspective. But isn't that how any well-planned description of method, whatever method it happens to be, should be handled? I don't shoot Asbell's style, but I do admire the approach he uses for supporting his views. Not sure how any of the Asbell theory has anything to do with 'cheating', aiming, Howard Hill or a perceived conspiracy against elevated rests, though.
As suggested in some of the prior posts, the image of elevated rests being target-oriented might have been honed by what kinds of rests are being used on todays bows, both compounds and modern recurves. Rests with multiple moving parts...metal, plastic, Teflon, rubber, metal alloy and all manner of patent-pending paraphenalia. It started way back with simple 'bumps' of wood or leather, then feather strips, then rubber/plastic horns (like the BEAR rest), then metal Springys and Flippers (bergers on the side...any fries with that?), and eventually morphed into huge and wildly complicated metal/plastic concoctions looking more like spaceage plumbing than an arrow rest. Precision tools. Target shooter tools.
Admittedly, those early feather and rubber rests are hardly the same as their modern cousins. But both types ARE elevated rests, and thus the potential for an image connection, albeit a remote one, remains.
Perhaps the general worry about rests, and indeed about the recent interest in using target gear mentality in developing new hunting gear, is that the simplicity and even the identity of the bow and arrow ('simple stick and string') might be compromised by adding progressively complicated 'devices', with the intent of 'improving' on that original simplicity. Anyone comparing hunting bows of the Howard Hill era with today's newest creations can see the differences in approach...and perhaps at least recognize why some are concerned even if not agreeing with it. In cases like the early elevated rests the worry doesn't seem warranted. But, there's always the eternal question that begs a response...as a group of archers aspiring to the challenge of pursuing game with simple stick and string...where DO we draw the line?
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I think most here would admit that there is a big difference between a FITA target recurve and a D-style longbow. By making the elevated rest illegal you eliminate most target style recurves. In turn you end up with a division that has more similar equipment being used from shooter to shooter. Often there will be a different classes for different bows.
However, most of the times when I shoot 3d, there is no scoring taking place and people can shoot what ever they want.
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Originally posted by MDbowhunter:
I think most here would admit that there is a big difference between a FITA target recurve and a D-style longbow. By making the elevated rest illegal you eliminate most target style recurves.
You are also eliminating a significant and growing number of recurve hunting bows. Fiberglass,carbon, FF strings, cnc machines, etc have taken us well past the "HH" era - especially the early part.
Modern rests and plungers, especially those used on hunting recurves are basically a bent wire, and a screw with a spring. No more hi tech then using the latest carbon weave in a limb or the raw material for bullet proof vests as a string.
Two classes - Primitive and any hunting legal wght bow. No sights.
JMO
Steve
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One option is to eliminate the competion all together. Are not some of the largest tradtion events where people are shooting bows at rubber critters have no score cards? Competition breeds an atmosphere of a fair playing field. At least a percived level of fairness in the rules. Rules are created becuase someone thought someone had an unfair equipment advantage. I use this as an example of how things get banned.
Keith Bain wins Texas State longbow with Dan Quinllan bamboo longhunter.
Keith wins with 21st Century Longbow (Jim & Buddy Early bow) with a bigger riser. Beats competitors by 100 points on course. Rule committe outlaws bow due to handle being too big.
Keith comes back with 21st Century with the overlays taken off the bow. Small handle reflex/deflex bow. He wins. Bow oulawed after shoot, needs to be a D-shape when strung. A percieved advantage!
Keiih returns next year with D-shaped bow. Wins Shoot! And I do not know how many he has won, but it might be the shooter, not the bow.
With that said, can Keith win a 50 yrd shoot at a 2 inch bullseye for the best 4 arrow group against an above average modern compound shooter? I do not think so. But I bet you can make them shoot and hit a pie plate at 20 yrds but tell them that you have belly crawled up on a deer and have to shoot in the prone position. I would bet on Keith.
This thread started as an elevated rest being prohibited. Rules typically come from someone stating there is an unfair advantage, real or imagined. Where do you draw the line?
Longbows & Short Shots,
Jeff
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Very good example Jeff!!!
It can often get out of hand and where do we try and draw the line.
There are advantages and disadvantages with certain equipment choices...based on the fact that some choices help reduce the effect of human error...and when you have an archer with the talent and ability Keith demonstrates the equipment won't matter that much because he doesn't shoot with very many errors.
I personally would like to see competitions based on 'mind sets'.
Let the trad target archers compete against themselves with specific rules and regs. Let the trad bowhunters comete aginst themselves with different rules and regs...and let the primitive trad archers compete against themselves in either a seperate target class or a seperate bowhunter class for them also.
Ray ;)
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If someone is that driven to compete than they should shoot the best equipment they feel they need to to win. If an archer is using equipment they know or believe is inferior to compete with, it's their fault for using it.
Ray ;)
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Interesting thread. In my locale, we often have a seperate class for elevated rests. To me, elevated rests are an obvious advantage: they are more forgiving than shooting off the shelf. I don't think carbon vs/aluminum, recurve vs/longbow, metal vs/wood risers are nearly as far apart as off the shelf vs/elevated rest.
I have no issue with an elevated rest in competition. But if I'm competing, I would consider an elevated rest to be an unfair advantage if lumped in the class with shooting off the shelf, depending on the shooter. Around here, the top 3-4 spots are typically seperated by only a few percentage points so any small equipment advantage could be the difference between winning and losing.
Rules exist in an attempt to level the playing field. Every sport has rules that exist for this purpose. You don't run nitro/top fuel dragsters with daily drivers at the dragstrip. You seperate the classes so each person can compete, hopefully closely and fairly, with others who have the desire to use similar equipment.
The bigger shoots often eliminate certain classes, as Keith said, not so much for "what is and isn't traditional" but for the sake of having enough people to participate in the class and decrease the costs of trophies etc. I'm fine with that, as long as I know the rules, clearly defined, before going into the competition. If I don't want to shoot with your rules, I simply won't turn in a card.
I know I can shoot better with an elevated rest, period. It is more forgiving and it makes a definate difference in my scores. But I don't want to shoot an elevated rest...just like I dont want to shoot a compound etc....I have chosen where my technological line will be drawn. If others choose to draw theirs differently, I support them. As long as they aren't shooting in my class ;)
jmho, your mileage may vary.
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This is based on my personal experience and isn't a reflection of anyone elses.
I personally see a minimal advantage going from shooting off the shelf to an elevated rest...unless the elevated rest also includes the use of a cushion plunger.
At typical hunting distances and the size of the scoring rings in 3D tournaments, I don't think it matters much...but when the targets are further away and are smaller, the advantages of an elevated rest and cushion plunger will become more apparent.
I use to compete in 3D tournaments and NFAA 300 rounds shooting off the shelf with my Black Widow and have only seen an increase of about 2% going to my DAS with a metal handle, elevated rest, cushion plunger and Olympic limbs, so it's hard to say exactly which of those upgrades improved my shooting.
Ray ;)
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I personally think the no rest rule is just dumb.You are handicaping anyone that is shooting an older bow.They were all built to use a rest not shoot off the shelf.What has happened is a few small minds in there attempt to cull out a target bow has used the rule to cull out or handicap most all of the older recurves as well in the process.I shoot off the shelf to follow such rules however I will use a rest for my hunting bows.I think it is a darn shame any time a rule keeps someone from useing there hunting rig at a 3d. jmo
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I agree with James. It is a darn shame any time a rule keeps someone from useing there hunting rig at a 3d., which is why I believe competitions should be set up for the differemt mind sets.
Ray ;)
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As someone who use to shoot a lot of NFAA competitions, I suppose I've always believed that as long as someone's following the rules, there is no such thing and an unfair advantage. Advantage? Yes. Unfair advantage? No. If something is allowed, and you choose not to use it (or do it), that's your decision.
Switching gears to 3D...
Most of the clubs around here have very relaxed rules. As long as your not shooting sights, a mechanical release, or have a long stabilizer, you're generally good to go in the traditional class. I've shot against people with short stabilizers, stripped-down Fita bows and even folks who were string walkers. Some I've beat, others I haven't. I could have shot similar equipment or walked the string but chose not to.
Did those people have an advantage over me? Probaby so. If I choose to to play baseball barehanded, it doesn't mean the next guy is being unfair when he takes the field with his glove on.
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I am one of those that really cares less what the guy beside me wants to shoot.If I can't compete I can change equipment if I want too. :)Bottom line however at the ranges of 3ds in our area the bow or setup is not going to be the decideing factor.It is always going to come back to the guy pulling the string.Maybe for feild archery advantages might show up but at 25yds and under like most trad 3d courses are set a 2$ piece of plastic is not going to change any outcomes at the end of the day. :confused:
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I agree with James, at 25yrd, which I think is IBO distances, if a guy shooting an elevated rest beats me by a few points, next time I may beat him, if he beats me by 20 points or more, chances are we could switch bows and he'd still beat me.
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Originally posted by James Wrenn:
Bottom line however at the ranges of 3ds in our area the bow or setup is not going to be the decideing factor.It is always going to come back to the guy pulling the string.Maybe for feild archery advantages might show up but at 25yds and under like most trad 3d courses are set a 2$ piece of plastic is not going to change any outcomes at the end of the day. :confused:
Yup, I went to shooting LBs off the shelf last year, because of PA traditional rules, and now it doesn't bother me, I know how to tune for it. I still have my recurves fron the early/mid 60s, flat shelves and Pierson elevated horizontal feather rests still on them:-). I never shot off the shelf in my life until last year.:-) Bill G.
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The reason I originally asked the question is due to some of the threads I've read on this site and other sites. It seems many people state they have tried a stick on elevated rest and off the shelf and noticed no difference in accuracy. However, some noted their bows shoot better with one or the other.
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Roknjs, I do notice that minor release errors are eliminated with an elevated rest. When I played with one on a couple of different bows, I found roughly a 3% improvement in my scores for the same bows without an elevated rest if scoreing the 10 ring and smaller.
"What has happened is a few small minds in there attempt to cull out a target bow has used the rule to cull out or handicap most all of the older recurves as well in the process.I shoot off the shelf to follow such rules however I will use a rest for my hunting bows.I think it is a darn shame any time a rule keeps someone from useing there hunting rig at a 3d."
Maybe it has nothing to do with "small minds" but just folks thinking they should be in a different class. Primative bows aren't expected to compete against glass etc....not sure why off the shelf should expect to compete against elevated rests.
And as far "keeping someone from using their hunting rig at 3d", no one is keeping anyone from that...at least at the shoots I've been to. If there is no class for elevated rests, you can still shoot...just not turn in your score. I've been to plenty of shoots that outlawed carbon arrows for score and I still shot my carbons because that's what I hunt with. I have also shot in those tournaments with aluminum arrows just to score in the competition. Myself and others made mulitiple, intelligently presented arguements to those that made the rules at these tournaments and some were eventually changed to include carbons. If you want to shoot an elevated rest for score, petition for a seperate class...bring enough guys with rests to show the "powers that be" you deserve your own class and voila!...everyone is happy.
As far as flat shelfed bows being eliminated, a couple of shims of leather or matchstick under a shelf plate will usually provide enough of a shelf to get good arrow flight on these types of bows.
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Wouldnt a match stick be considered an elevated rest? Where do you draw the line. Some shelfs look like a sharp upside down V. They do the same thing a plastic stick on rest does. Its just hidden better.
Anyways a match stick will not fix a lot of bows that were designed for a rest because these bows were designed to be shot 1-2 inches higher than the shelf. If you drop the arrow down that low on the bow you run into tiller issues.
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Tom, in my opinion at least, as long as it's attached to the shelf and is of solid material, it's not an elevated rest. I know guys who've taken bondo etc. to their bows to make it shoot off the shelf properly and still passed all the qualifications for shooting off the shelf. Imho, the elevated rest is superior because it's flexible, raises the arrow away from the shelf to minimize any contact as it leaves the bow and has a much smaller contact point for the arrow than any off the shelf rest...can't do all that with a matchstick etc. firmly attached to the shelf.
You probably are correct on the 1-2" higher bows...I've just never had one with that much of a tiller issue. I have an old browning cobra 2 that came with the "leaf spring" rest (maybe 1")that shoots just fine off of a small roll of leather under the shelf rug.
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I wondered about this topic, until a few days ago a friend said they caught a guy ata local shoot using the rest as a sight pin somehow? maybe thats why they are illegal some places? Mike