Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: notdodger on June 22, 2007, 10:38:00 PM
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Wondering how long you guys hold at full draw??
I can shoot either way, but if I hold about 3 to 4 seconds I shoot 100% better! Most of the trad guys I have shot with start to critize me about half way through the 3-d. But I can make fast shots on moving targets. Most of the guys I have shot with snap shoot. To each their own. I am not putting them down. I can shoot that way if I want. I just choose to hold. I was wanting to know from you fella's, even the top shooters, their holding time. Am I the only guy that holds a little longer?????
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" if I hold about 3 to 4 seconds I shoot 100% better!" :thumbsup:
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I hold the same as you. Snap shooting for me isn't very reliable. Might not get the correct anchor point cosistantly. I can pull off good shots that way sometimes but holding is more reliable.
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I hold as long as i have to to be fully focased on my target be it 1 second or 10 do what you have to and make the shot count. Thats my opinion
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I would say I average 5-6 seconds.
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I used to snap shoot but was very inconsistant. I am having good success drawing and quickly going thru a checklist: shoulders properly aligned?, good back tension?, good sight picture?, remember to not pluck!, and finally - bear down on the center molecule of the POA and think of nothing else. Takes about 4 - 5 seconds. This time also allows me to abort mission - if something aint't right, I stop and start over rather than take a bad shot. Important for target punching - even more so for ethically correct hunting. Holding time will likely decrease as I season as an archer.
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Thanks fella's
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I don't hold at all, unless the animal moves just as I'm reaching anchor, but I use a double anchor and always get to full draw. It works for me, but certainly not for everyone.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
I don't hold at all, unless the animal moves just as I'm reaching anchor, but I use a double anchor and always get to full draw. It works for me, but certainly not for everyone.
Can you tell us a little more about your double anchor Terry?
I began shooting by releasing as I touched my anchor. Like some others I have found that I am more consistent if I hit my anchor and pause briefly before my release. I would say I generally pause for 1-2 seconds.
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I believe that snap shooting is just another name for target panic...or at least, something that is leading to TP. If you hold 3-5 seconds...and even 10, I say good for you and keep doing it.
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I prefer holding a few seconds, I focus better because I wear glasses when I shoot.
This works for me, but not for everybody.
Do what it takes to do the job correctly.
Whatever works best for you, do it.....
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There are some mighty fine archers who can shoot consistantly accurate who don't hold at full draw...and Terry is one of them.
Snap Shooting has developed a few different meanings.
Some are:
Releasing the arrow without pausing to aim.
Releasing before the archer has reached their anchor point.
Releasing due to Target Panic.
Releasing the arrow without pausing to aim is not usually a problem unless the archer hasn't learned to aim properly. For most instinctive archers they are basically aiming as they draw their bow and reach anchor. The aiming process has already been achieved and there generally is no reason to pause and adjust the aim when they have reached their anchor.
Now the other 2 have more severe consequences that need to addressed and fixed.
I personally aim Instinctive Gap, which is typically known as Split Vision or just Gap and hold for 3 to 4 sec.
Ray ;)
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I like the way Terry shoots.The shot is made before the bow is drawn.If you hold at full draw it makes it difficult to shoot a bow 55# or more. Target shooters hold but their bows are 45# or less. Nothng wrong with either way ,you choose what works for you.
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Personally, I find that the longer I hold the more inaccurate I am (usually). However, I am aiming through the entire shot process. I may pause at anchor, but that is about it.
I don't know why this is. But I think it is due to different forces being applied as I hold for long periods (over about a second). When I release while I am still in the process of pulling back, I believe the forces are acting properly to give the arrow proper flight. If I stop to hold long, it takes away from the fluidness of the shot. And I believe other forces and muscles are coming into play which can effect the arrow flight.
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Bobco, I have to agree with you. Once you stop for over a split second you cancel out all your previous preparation. The fluidness you mentioned is not there anymore. This requires you to shoot a lower weight(draw) bow so you can realign and not be all over the place.It takes time at the batts to perfect a style and the style we have chose is harder to perfect. The rewards a field are worth the effort as it pays off when that, once in a life time, opportunity comes along.
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Sure,
I drag my thumb base knuckle along side my face, and as my middle finger comes to the corner of my mouth I keep coming, and my thumb base knuckle slides in behind my jaw under my ear.
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Originally posted by BLACK WOLF:
Snap Shooting has developed a few different meanings.
Some are:
Releasing the arrow without pausing to aim.
Releasing before the archer has reached their anchor point.
Releasing due to Target Panic.
Ray ;)
Correct Ray.....and the old timers that coined the phrase 'snap shooting' or 'snap shooter' that I personaly know/knew, was just phrase to describe a style of shooting.....someone who shot fast without holding, or never stopped pulling. Hll and Pearson were both great shooters, and refered to in those days as snap shooters....seems Fred Bear called himself a snap shooter as well.
As of late, others have miss used that phrase and have put a negative spin on it, mostly by those that don't understand what snap shooting is as deemed by our forefathers......and refering to snap shooting as out of control shooting and leading to target panic.
Target panic is a mental issue, and causes uncontrolable releases....short drawing is also a mental issue, as the one shooting knows they are supose to come to anchor.
Snap shooting is a style of 'releasing' or shooting, ...target panic, or out of control shooting is a condition.
If snap shooting leads to target panic, I'm a prime candadate, but I've yet to experience it.
I've also seen many that hold panic at release and have no idea where there arrow is going. ....once again, not a problem with 'holding'.... its a mental issue, one of sudden fear.
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I also agree Terry ;)
I personally don't believe that Snap Shooting leads to Target Panic.
The issue that will generally lead to target panic is basically a fear of missing.
Confidence or an empty mind helps keep TP from entering the picture.
Anything an archer can do to increase their confidence or strengthen their concentration is going to be beneficial.
The shorter an archer holds at full draw the less time doubt or fear has to enter into the thought process, which can decrease the potential for an archer to develope TP.
Snap Shooting does have some advantages...but in some cases an archer is not doing anything to build any confidence in their skill if they are missing their targets more often than not by Snap Shooting.
The goal for most archers should be to develop their form to the point it is executed comfortably, instinctively, consistantly and accurately...by whatever means possible.
It is neither more traditional or any less traditional to hold at full draw or not.
Find what works for you.
Ray ;)
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I'm curious. Do "snap" (fast shooters)start off learning and practicing that way, or does the speed come with experience? Answers to this question may help many out there.
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I was just thinking that too, JoeK.
Howard Hill and Fred Bear I have read alot about.
If I only had half of there talent (instinct) I would be doing awesome. Never know what another years of practice will do. hehe. I think the more anchors the better. Thanks again.
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Yeah Ray....I think 'hold - no hold' comes down to this....
Those who aim after anchor, and those that aim before anchor.
I get on target real fast because I am aiming before I even commit to the shot. I bring all the equipment to me, and don't go to it.
I aim, draw, and anchor.....and never stop pulling.
I think those that hold...draw, anchor, and then aim.......I know a lot of them do, but I aint so sure all of them do.
Again, I'm not knocking holding....just aint for me.....less I'm tracking a moving target after I reach full draw.
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JoeK,
Your form will most likely imitate what you practice. Most Snap Shooters start off learning and practicing that way.
Speed can also come with experience but it still needs to be practiced.
There should be a rythem to the shot sequence whether you hold at anchor or not.
Ray ;)
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Confusious say "it is the archer that makes a style not the style that makes an archer"
If you don't aim until you reach anchor then you must hold, if your aiming before you even draw then why hold? As long as your hittin' 'em who really cares...
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The student trying to become a better archer is the one who cares.
Ray ;)
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Yeah yeah, I meant who really cares if your snapping or holding, they are both legit and a caring student might try all methods while searching out what works for them. Cheers.
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Gotchya...me understand you now ;)
Ray ;)
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Yep, I see someone trying to learn, not arguing over which is best. The one that's best is the one that fits the particular shooter best.
We'll let them argue on some other site :biglaugh:
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TTT
Seems appropriate but I must admit my ignorance, what the heck does ttt stand for! :help:
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To The Top.
Cheers,
Donavan
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And I thought all this time in meant TradTalkTyrant ;)
Ray ;)
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If you have a picture in your mind of how everything should be at the time the arrow leaves the bow, it takes no thinking. the thinking you do is only whether you are going to shoot or not.It is not done carelessly as some may think,it is ingrained in the mind from hours of shooting for more years than I can recall.This is not to say I am a great shooter . I still am a work in progress at 65 years of age.I do believe that anyone can develope a style of shooting that will allow them to hit what they desire, within reason.I have used the method Terry mentioned hunting and at 3-d shoots with good results.I also don't subscribe to the,"I can take game but don't do well on targets talk" Everything you shoot at is target,there is no difference? It boils down to freeing ones mind of all extraneous thoughts, having your equipment tuned and being consistant in your procedure.
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Interesting discussion. I think it all boils down to figuring out what works best for you and then fine tuning it to perfection. I've seen a number of frighteningly accurate instinctive snap shooters. Terry being one, a local guy named Kevin Griveti being another.
Personally, I was always taught to hold at full draw until the shot felt right. Everyone in my family shot instinctivly and held for however long that particular shot took, be it 2 seconds or 10. They were also hunters first and foremost.
About the only thing I routiney snap shoot on is fish. Then again, I don't have to be very accurate to hit a carp at 15 feet, but pulling off a fast shot is critical.
For the most part, I'm a gap shooter show tends to hold a long time when it comes to targets. A few weeks ago a gentleman working the novelty shoot at Cloverdale joked that he was thinking about going out for a sandwich, waiting for me to drop the string. I don't know how many times someone had asked me, "what does that bow pull, about 40 pounds?"
Nope...57 on the button.
For bowhunting, my sequence goes a bit faster, but I still hold and aim for however long it takes for the shot to feel right. It's what I've found works best for me, after a lot of trial and error. I think everyone should take the time to try a bunch of different shooting styles in order to find their niche.
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I think all reported holding times should be taken with a grain of salt...here's why. Unless you've timed yourself with a watch or film you will be off because time seems to stand still. I have shot for years and thought I held for 2 seconds or so, when "really" aiming. Well, I taped myself today and the digital frames and timer revealed that I held less long when aiming versus concentrating on form. My holding time was about 1/10 sec.. Imagine my surprise.
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Good thread. My whole shot process collapses when I try and hold for 3-5 seconds and aim. Everything about the shot seems more fluid and natural when I "pull through". My bow even feels and sounds better and the arras just seem to fly perfectly.
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I agree with Bobco,If I hold more than 1 sec. I start to fall apart :D :D
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I believe I hold for 2-3 seconds. My son tells me that probably one time per week I jerk slightly while holding before release
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Originally posted by BLACK WOLF:
"There should be a rythem to the shot sequence whether you hold at anchor or not."
I think this is key. I have only been shooting trad for about 6 months but this seems to be the key to my accuracy(or lack there of). If I can repeatably shoot in a good rhythm,my accuracy is much better. I'll bet whether you shoot fast or slow, if you do so in a repeatable rhythm, you'll see improvements in accuracy.
Just a newbies observations.
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I thought i held longer until i saw a video of my shot sequence hold time maybe a second but i can hold much longer if i had to i hold as long as i have to to make the shot B\\Lee 53@29" anchor has moved to web of thumb and index to jawbone and has increased to 29" from 28"
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I aim as I'm drawing. As soon as I reach anchor it's gone. Proved to myself a couple of years ago on a black bear. It was a 13 yard broadside shot. I concentrated as hard as I could and took my time. My arrow hit about 6 inches off. As he turned to leave, I had to make a split second follow-up shot. Hit him dead-on. I guess my point is, the longer I take, the worse I shoot. The less thinking I do, the better off I am. ;)
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I think it is easier for a person to learn to anchor and hold before they draw thru like Terry does. I am still at the anchor and hold, but doubt I will change. It works best for me.
Often shooters that are over bowed will not hold because they can't hold the weight.
This causes problems with any style of shooting, and they are usualy short drawing no matter how they do it.
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For someone new to traditional archery which would be the best option, fluid motion with little or no rest or fluid motion accompanied by a 1-3 second rest?
Thanks
Andrew
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Howard Hill (the best game shot that ever was) was a great believer in rhythm in shooting. I believe this is a better way to think about it than just how long to hold. If you are going to make a careful shot, as in target shooting, do the whole process with a slower rhythm. Pre-visualize your shot, raise the bow, draw, anchor, perfect your aim and pull through the release.
On furred game you will want a quicker rhythm. And on a rising duck or pheasant, or a running deer, a quicker one still.
I believe that using the idea of rhythm helps you to shoot quickly if need be without a premature ejacu....., oops, release.
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That makes sense to me. I appreciate your feedback.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Sure,
I drag my thumb base knuckle along side my face, and as my middle finger comes to the corner of my mouth I keep coming, and my thumb base knuckle slides in behind my jaw under my ear.
Wow, I thought I was the only one to anchor this way...
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Bobco and Matt E say it perfectly. Where is the pause or hold when J Shultz hits that aspirin flying thru the air.
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I'm not an instinctive shooter and probably never will because my beat up old shoulders won't let me practice enough.
There is a lot of good information on this tread but I think that I have one thing to add.
Watching videos of good instinctive shooters like Terry & others, I notice that not only do they begin aiming before drawing, but they also begin setting up their stance & alignment before the shot and finish aligning during the draw.
One of the things critical to good accuracy is to draw the bow the same distance every time. It's certainly not the only thing, but it is one of the biggies. This is partly achieved through shoulder and body alignment.
I don't know how Terry learned to do this, but he obviously did.
Idealy, aiming, alignment and balance is achieved before and during the draw. Then when you hit anchor and are on target, there is no reason to continue holding.
However, if you need a little longer to be sure that you are aligned and on target, then by all means do so. It is a little less efficient, but every archer needs to learn what works best for himself. Archery is not about efficiency, it's about accuracy.
I hope that this is a constructive contribution to the conversation.
Allen
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if I shoot my 50# longbow I dont hold long at all,almost snap shooting but it pretty much works for me like it do Terry,IF Im shooting my 45#r I can hold longer and I do get a bit better grouping but I guess its all about coming to draw and release cause of hunting. The deer round here have a habit of being quick on the hoof so thats pretty much a requirement HAHAHA