Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Curtiss Cardinal on August 28, 2007, 08:10:00 PM
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I was bare shaft testing some different carbon shafts. I was shooting right handed. The one that shot best shot just slightly nock right.This means just a tad stiff right? so going up in point weight some and it should be perfect right?
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That's right. Just make sure you're showing stiff at more than one distance -- like two steps, four steps, and six steps away from the target.
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When you bareshaft you have to compare the point of impact between fletched and unfletched arrows. Check this link out, it explains it better than I can.
http://www.bowmaker.net/tuning.htm
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it showed stiffer at 2 steps than it did at 4 which was showing stiffer than 6 at 10 sjust the smallest indication. I think if I got to a full 400 grains up front or maybe 100 more I'll be spot on and that is what I want ridulously FOC carbons. I should say the arrows are not going too far away from where I am looking. Just shoowing slightly nock right on the paper.
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That's what you want to see: they're stiff but they're close. Shafts that are way off, especially when too limber, waggle all over the place.
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that's what I thought.
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I think a little stiff is good if you are adding broadheads. Depending on type of broadhead it will move point weight 1/4-1/2" forward essentually lengthening your arrow.
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...and that's why, every year, the thought comes to me, "These are bareshafting just a might stiff with field points, but what about...?"
And, every year, I remind myself, "Don't bareshaft with broadheads!"
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If my fletched shafts are hitting 4" rt at 20 yds and I puy my STOS BH on they hit perfect on point. Need to figure out how to compensate for that when bare shafting. Answer bareshaft a little stiff.
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Don't forget about the 30-40 grains you are adding with feathers !!! I do just the opposite, I like mine either right on, flying straight, or a tad bit weak. When I add the feathers it will stiffen it right back up. JMHO.
nocams
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Bareshating today dont know if its a good thing but shot at 15yrds,is that to far of could you do it at more.
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The further the better ! If you can get a bareshaft to fly 50 yds then you have the ultimate in tuning. I shoot with a gent from time to time and he can group a bareshaft with his feathered shafts at 40-50yds ! Bareshaft flight is a indicator of bow tuning and You, ( form ). If it will fly straight that far then all is well with the bow tune and you too.
nocams
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Sorry but I disagree with this. What you really want is to tune your bow and arrows so your end result is as small groups as possible with your fletched arrows. Bareshafting past 30 yards is a waste of time IMHO. Bareshafts grouping with your fletched arrows does not guarantee your fletched arrows will group at their tightest, it's only a starting point.
Do you score points/shoot animals with your bareshafts or fletched arrows? Think about it... :)
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Bkupris, I agree and disagree. It has been my experience that I get the best grouping when I have bare shafted by bow for tune. In most cases, I have nothing to do beyond that point. I do believe that for those who can't keep it together to get that 50 yard bare shaft tune, the following will fill the bill. This is where I agree with you O great one.
Once you have achieved the best bare shaft tune possible, you should shoot your broadhead tipped arrows with your field points. You will be attempting to get them both to hit at the same point, you will be making this adjustment by moving your nocking point, up or down. Shoot these arrows for group over the distances that you will be shooting at game, it is a waste of time to shoot out to fifty yards here, after all we are doing this for hunting. You will be amazed at the confidence you will have when you see what you and your bow are capable of. If you broadheads are hitting below your field points, you should lower your nocking point a 32nd at a time.
You will find that once you have found the right arrow shaft during your bare shaft, it is wiser to adjust for left and right shooting by dealing with your brace height. You might be suprised to learn that you bow shoots a little more silently when that "sweet spot" is found.
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Scotty:
I hope you are right about lowering the nock if the broadheads are hitting low. I have been raising it. It is to late to check out your idea. I will be at first light.
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Capt Eddie,
Don't get fooled, you can raise you point so high that the arrow will actually strike the shelf or rest hard and kick up giving you the oposite impression of what you think. If all is well and you are hitting low, a slight incremental lowering, about a 32nd at at time. Mark the starting point if it gets worst, move back to the orginial spot and move the other way. Remember nocking point will dictate nock high, nock low, and proposing issues. Brace height will determine left and right impact as long as we have established that we are shooting the right spined arrow....I will check back to see your progress.
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Hi Scott
Interesting thread. I personally tune to what I am shooting ie broadheads or field points separately. They don't always fly the same so why try and make them if you have to sacrifice your group sizes? I think finding the sweat spot with your bow also must include finding the correct brace height. Usually when your bow shoots at it's quietest I think the correct brace height has been found. When I am getting ready for hunting I practice with the broadheads I am going to hopefully do the business with. Maybe I am splitting hairs here but after several years shooting target FITA rounds with some shooters much better than myself I have learned (from them)that the only thing the big guns care about is getting the specific arrows they are shooting in the middle and grouping as tight as possible. I think the same applies to when we are hunting?
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Scotty
I tried lowering the NP but it got worse. I raised 1/8 higher then normal and it improved. Added to the side plate and it helped also. Still terrible.
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C2,
Try giving the arrows you are shooting or testing. The bow you are shooting of the shelf or elevated rest. Arrow set up weight tube weight insert and so on. Sometimes left right could be a form problem not arrow. There is so much to check fine tuning takes time and that is the great thing, if you wake up in the morning God has given you one more day to figure it out.
Bare shafting at 10 steps or 100 steps will not make a differance. If your arrow is not tuned at 10 steps you will be lucky to find your arrow at 50 keep to the basics post some pictures Terry Green and the rest on the Gang will help believe me they have helped me.
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Brian, "They don't always fly the same so why try and make them if you have to sacrifice your group sizes?"
There is no evidence to support that. Field tips and matched weight broadheads will fly to the same point of impact if well tuned. If they don't your tuning is off period and neither are flying where they should.....O.L.
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By the way, O.L. has one of the best discriptions of bare shaft testing any place you can look on his web site.
The biggest mistake made with bareshaft testing is looking at the nock and not the point of impact..where the arrow is sticking in the target.
If you are within an 1" 1.5" of two fletched shafts your tune is good. I bareshaft test out to 20 yards. There is no need to go farther when shooting traditonal equipment off the shelf.
Remember the farther you get away from the target the more your shooting form has to be right on... You really need to make sure you are getting off good shots with proper form when testing...take your time and be warmed up before you test. I wouldn't consider doing a bare shaft test before I have shot 30 to 35 arrows.
Be honest with your self, if you do not have good form, don't bareshaft past 10 yards. Any father out more than likely will just be magnifing any problems with shooting form.
10 yards is all you need to know you have your arrows matched to your bow.
Remember follow the impact. If the bare shaft hits high move your nocking point up, low then lower it.
good luck
Art
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Its a good thing the reason we all shoot trad-equipment is becouse its simplified. :goldtooth:
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Hehe!
Today I was again amazed: ...how much a small change in brace height, or in nocking point height changes how well the arrows group together. I think I just about doubled my effective hunting distance from 15 to 30 yards by going back and re-adjusting both!
O.L., thanks so much for posting your excellent tuning resource online. I've referred to it many times, and still keep learning more each time. Question: Even though we're looking for point of impact - and not nock point direction to judge stiffness and nocking point - what DOES a "nock-left" or "nock-high" arrow point out? ...flaws in shooting form?
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Thanks O.L. for coming to my rescue. I recently learned of your tuning method in "Traditional Bowhunter" from "Tips from the Old Timer". I am in the process of using the bare shaft method of Black Widow(Beck) which I have used for years and to great success, and a final tune using your method. I can assure everyone who will listen, your broadheads and your field points will fly the same, in the same group, and are supposed too. If they don't, you owe it to yourself, the game you hunt, and the sport to get it right.....NUFF SAID!
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The first thing to do when starting to bare shaft test is to make sure you are warmed up properly....shoot several arrows first.
The the next thing to do is make sure your nocking point is correct. Last is to get the spin correct. The below is a short form of O.L.'s proceedure.
Always move the nocking point in the direction of the arrow hit or impact in the target. High -move it up....low - move it down. Do not pay any attention to the direction the nock end is pointing only pay attention to the actual impact of the arrow tip.
If your bare shaft is impacting right of you flectched shafts (weak shaft) take a few twists out of your string to stiffen the shaft. Impact right is a stiff shaft and you can weakend the shaft by doing the reverse of the above, just add a few twist to your string.
Slightly low and right impact is considered idea by many. Within 2 inches of the fletched shafts.
Most Olympic shooters do strive for center impact with bare shaft but they are on a whole different level than most tradional archers.
Art
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You can make all of this even simpler by just remembering to tune for a slightly weak (where the point strikes)bare shaft. If this is done, when fletchings are applied, the stiffening effect on the shaft will bring the point right into center. OL's site is a wealth of great information on arrow tuning, but if you do nothing but the above, you will still have an arrow that is tuned better than most and be able to enjoy the benfits of a forgiving if not obedient projectile.
Claudia