Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Rabbit Stew on September 19, 2007, 12:10:00 PM
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Alrighty ive been an archer for about 2 years now but a few months ago i just got out of it. Now that hunting season is just around the corner ive started back up and would like to try instinctive shooting. Before I always closed one eye and looked at the arrow head but I really like the idea of instinctive shooting because of its simplicity and the traditional factor. For my gear I have a 35# recurve I use a glove I just bought, i shoot off a hair rest on the shelf and I have no gadgets on my bow whatsoever. Id like someone to get me off to a good start with this like what to do and how to get me on the right track. Also im wondering if I practiced everyday instinctive shooting for about an hour would I become skilled enough to hit a snowhoe hair at o say 10 yards. I know it varys for different people but id sure like to get half decent before wabbit season
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Yes, practice by standing in front of your target at about 5 yds and shoot one arrow, then take a big step back and shoot another arrow and keep doing that to about 25 yds, never shoot from the same place twice.
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I,ll probably get hammered but here it goes anyway, To get good at instintive shooting you must get your form forged into memory, got to be consistant, got to believe your bowhand is on target when you reach anchor, and you have to have 100% concentration on the dot you want to hit, Don,t get discouraged sometimes it takes many years to develope into 100% instintive. I have been shooting this way a long time and still feel I use split vision method except now I am focusing on the dot more and in hunting the only thing i see is what I,m shooting at
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Good post Dan......form and proper alignment are MUCH more important than 'how' you aim. Once you have form and proper alignment 'grooved in'....then your aiming will come along a LOT faster due to you knocking out lots of negative varibles of executing the shot.
You gotta learn the shot before you learn to shoot.
Once you get your form and alignment grooved in, then practice at known AND unknown distances will help you learn to 'aim'.
Also, you should use a bright fletch(flo-yellow) so your eyes can transfer the trajectory image to your brain....don't shoot arrows that you can't see in flight.
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I just got back into archery after 10 yrs. I shoot a recurve bow. I went a brought a Cobra Sight, I found myself not using it to aim, I would Instinctive Shooting. So, I took the sight off and have not use since. I do find that form and alightment is so inportant.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
You gotta learn the shot before you learn to shoot.
That's the most succinct explanation for shooting a Trad bow that I've ever seen or heard. Bravo, Terry!... :thumbsup:
I think I may be getting there. In the last few weeks, I've begun to "see" the arrow flight as I release. This explanation falls far short of the experience but it's like I can "see" the trajectory the instant of release and know if the arrow is going downtown at that second.
Seems as if the harder I concentrate, the poorer I shoot. The best mode is relaxed but focused.
Not missing much either and have begun stretching my comfortable range as well, since this has begun happening.
This explanation is inadequate, but I believe you guys who have BTDT know what I mean...
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Also, you should use a bright fletch(flo-yellow) so your eyes can transfer the trajectory image to your brain....don't shoot arrows that you can't see in flight
Excellent advice! Natural turkey feathers are nice, but not for the novice. I like orange and yellow, with at Fl green nock on my practice arrows :)
I would also suggest practicing from 5 to 10yds for at least a month to promote mind and muscle memory. then I would go about practicing from different yardages. STUMP shoot as much as possible. I never consider the yardage when shooting. Only the SPOT!
I never believed in this 50 arrows a day business. You can learn much more from one well thought out shot. Also once fatique sets in, or focus is lost flinging arrows can be futile.
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Originally posted by LCB:
I never believed in this 50 arrows a day business. You can learn much more from one well thought out shot. [/b]
I'd have to dissagree with that....as you must also learn to repeat the shot.....over and over so your subconcious can burn it in, and the mechanics of the shot are run without thought once it is burned in.
Take free throws for intance. Would you learn to shoot 80% from the line shooting one a day or 50? Any basketball player will tell you the same answer. Same answer with shooting a bow, or throwing a football, or swinging a bat.......you can't get better at something by not doing it.
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You have a point Mr Green, but my point was that one proper shot was better than 50 shots using improper form.
Yes practice will burn form into the subconscious, but we need to ensure that proper form is achieved prior to putting a mental footprint on our brain.
Once proper form is achieved then YES repetition is key. Would you not first teach the basketball player how to properly shoot a basketball? Again after proper form is achieve then I would highly suggest shooting more than 50 arrows a day. BUT keep in mind that at some point returns will deminish!
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" but my point was that one proper shot was better than 50 shots using improper form."
Yes, and that's the only way anyone should practice....I have never encouraged anyone to shoot ANY badly executed shots, either one or fifty.....ALL practice shots should be executed properly. All shots should be the best one can do. 50 shots with proper form is better than one shot with proper form....that is my point. Just because someone says you should shoot more does not mean they are saying to take bad shots. You can't learn and build on your experiences if you don't have any.
"Would you not first teach the basketball player how to properly shoot a basketball?"
Yep, but how am I going to teach him if he only shoots ONE? You can't get better at something by not doing it.
Payton Manning didn't throw one pass a day - Michael Jordan didn't take one jumper a day - Tiger woods didn't take one stroke a day - to get to where they are today.
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Just because someone says you should shoot more does not mean they are saying to take bad shots.
Just to expand, IMO, a "bad shot" does not necessarily mean an inaccurate shoot. I totally agree that it's very tough to "burn in" an aspect(s) of form with out repeatability. However, when burning form, your shots do not necessarily need to be accurate to be "good".
-Just reread what I wrote, I have no idea if I made my point clear. :knothead:
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If you want to use Manning, Woods and Jordan as examples then we have add natural ability to our discussion:)
Terry I agree with you that practice is the single most valuable asset in our sport. No one can become proficient by only randomly performing one shot. My comment on the one shot was intended to get Rabbit Stew thinking about how he goes about his practice sessions. Understanding that sometimes less is more, and not to sacrifice form for numbers. I think we are on the same page here, just looking at from a different perspective.
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Bobco 1965,
We are talking about instinctive shooting here! I think I understand what your saying about shots not necessarily needing to be accurate.
Sometimes when focusing on a specific aspect of the shot I lose concern for where my arrow impacts. I do this a lot while blind bale shooting.
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Originally posted by LCB:
If you want to use Manning, Woods and Jordan as examples then we have add natural ability to our discussion:)
Natural ability is worthless unless it is applied. All of those above, as with any person that want's to be good at something, has honed their natural ability through practice.
If Tiger Woods had never picked up a club untill today, even though he had all that natural ability, how well do you think play his 1st round starting tomorrow?
If anyone wants to improve, no matter their God given level of ability, they have to apply themselves.
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If Tiger Woods had never picked up a club untill today, even though he had all that natural ability, how well do you think play his 1st round starting tomorrow?
Probably better than me:)
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Natural ability is worthless unless it is applied.
Thought we were talking about folks who applied it?
If anyone wants to improve, no matter their God given level of ability, they have to apply themselves
So what your saying is that any archer can be just as good as the next guy by just applying himself more, and that natural ability plays no real factor.
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Originally posted by LCB:
Bobco 1965,
We are talking about instinctive shooting here! I think I understand what your saying about shots not necessarily needing to be accurate.
Sometimes when focusing on a specific aspect of the shot I lose concern for where my arrow impacts. I do this a lot while blind bale shooting.
My post was made to help define what makes a bad shot from a good one. There are those that feel accuaracy is the only measure. I was just just pointing out that it is not. The post was not meant as an attack or directly to you specifically.
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One perfectly shot arrow is better than a dozen arrows with a serious form flaw.
However, it's not going to help you much on the last few arrows of a 60 arrow tournement and you can barely hold up the bow.
An hour a day is great for a beginner if he understands form and alignment. He is developing strength and form. His form will certainly have to be refined a little as he builds strength and endurance, but probably won't be seriously detrimental to shooting bunnies at 10 yards.
To improve your ability at longer ranges an archer must shoot purposeful arrows and work on one part of his form at a time.
Everyone has offered good advice above, but the key for Rabbit Stew is to find out what good form looks like and how good execution operates.
As a beginner in recurve shooting, I have learned that this information is not easy to come by. There are several books and videos available. While all of them have some good information all of them seem to be written by self taught archers who are passing on what they have learned. They don't seem to have tapped into the archery skills of the past as well as one would hope.
Rabbit Stew, one of the best things that you could do to learn to shoot a recurve, is to find a good coach. They are few and far between for instinctive shooters, so you will probably have to go to a FITA style coach. Almost everything about form and execution is transferable when you go back to shooting hunting style.
There are certainly differences, but by the time you make the transition, you will likely understand these differences.
Good luck
Allen
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Originally posted by BobCo 1965:
My post was made to help define what makes a bad shot from a good one. There are those that feel accuaracy is the only measure. I was just just pointing out that it is not. The post was not meant as an attack or directly to you specifically.
I'm curious, what is the measure of a good shot if it's not hitting what you are aiming at?
And, curious if there is ANYTHING else that you can get better at by doing LESS? Not trying to be a smart alec, I just don't believe you can improve without lots of arrows...good arrows mind you, but still a lot of them. By the way, I'm one of those "50-100 arrows a day" believers. ;)
Good advice on the coach, if you can find one. I think 99% of most trad shooters are stuck with self teaching or at best, other shooters at local shoots helping them out etc. I think a video camera is the second best teacher...comparing your form and results to others then making the modifications where necessary.
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Originally posted by LCB:
[qb] Thought we were talking about folks who applied it?
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!...thanks for proving my point
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Originally posted by LCB:
[qb] So what your saying is that any archer can be just as good as the next guy by just applying himself more, and that natural ability plays no real factor.
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Nope....this is what I said...
quote:
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If anyone wants to improve, no matter their God given level of ability, they have to apply themselves
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Now that words are being put in my mouth, I'll bow out....and leave ya with this....
One bad shot is worse than 50 good ones.
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I'm curious, what is the measure of a good shot if it's not hitting what you are aiming at?
Just so we are clear, I am not talking about hunting, rather practice sessions.
When workng on an aspect of form, for me anyway, my focus shifts to that specific aspect I am working on without complete focus on the target. I may have a target that I am shooting at, but if my shot is not accurate, I would not necessarily consider it a bad shot.
I would say the measure of the "good shot" in this instance would be more in line on if I was able to accomplish what I was intending to correct or "burn in". Basically I'd call it a good shot and a worthy shot if I did what I was intending to do.
Just as I would call it a good shot if I put the arrow right in the bullseye (or close) if I was practicing accuracy.
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Gotcha. Would it be safe to assume then that when not working on form, whether specific aspect or as a whole, the measure of a good shot is hitting what you are aiming at?
Do you think it's possible to both work on form AND have an accurate shot at the same time?
I believe some of the differences in these discussions is a distinct difference in shooting styles. For me, the aiming process is as much a part of the form/shot whatever as any of the actual mechanics. I cannot seperate them and therefore have difficulty in understanding the semantics of those that do. To me, if I miss (by more than an "acceptable amount"), my form was off....bad shot. If I hit, my form was good....good shot.
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Gotcha. Would it be safe to assume then that when not working on form, whether specific aspect or as a whole, the measure of a good shot is hitting what you are aiming at?
Yup, see the last sentence in my last post.
Do you think it's possible to both work on form AND have an accurate shot at the same time?
Sure, I think it would depend on the person and probably on the aspect trying to be corrected or practiced.
Personally, I feel like whenever I am trying to practice something on form though, my mind detours from the spot I want to hit (the concentration level on the target may be slight or large). But, I loose some concentration on the target to some degree. Knowing my limitations in not being able to keep the same concentration levels on target when working on form helps me not to loose confidence or become discouraged in my abilities if my shot is not dead center.
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Originally posted by JC:
Do you think it's possible to both work on form AND have an accurate shot at the same time?
I don't think so. That would require you to focus on two things at once and the human mind isn't capable of that.
Aiming by whatever means you are using requires mental focus on aiming and that lets the execution of the shot run subconsciously.
Working on form requires mental focus on whatever it is that you are trying to improve or correct.
If you try to split focus between aiming and form, you are not doing either one as well as possible.
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Originally posted by BobCo 1965:
Personally, I feel like whenever I am trying to practice something on form though, my mind detours from the spot I want to hit (the concentration level on the target may be slight or large). But, I loose some concentration on the target to some degree. Knowing my limitations in not being able to keep the same concentration levels on target when working on form helps me not to loose confidence or become discouraged in my abilities if my shot is not dead center.
Again, I think there is the difference of shooting styles. When you practice form and you are focusing on say your release, aren't you also trying to keep good form with your bow arm? I would think you can indeed work on multiple aspects of your form at one time, because you are not forgetting about bow arm form while working on the release. To me, the aiming/concentrating is just as much of form as the release or bow arm etc. I don't "disconnect" one to work on the others.
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Originally posted by AllenR:
I don't think so. That would require you to focus on two things at once and the human mind isn't capable of that.
Aiming by whatever means you are using requires mental focus on aiming and that lets the execution of the shot run subconsciously.
Working on form requires mental focus on whatever it is that you are trying to improve or correct.
If you try to split focus between aiming and form, you are not doing either one as well as possible.
Guess we'll just have to disagree on that one, cause for me, it's certainly possible.
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Didn't mean to put words into anyones mouth.
Honestly I felt like I was attacked from the get go here. I tried to explain what I meant by "one well thought out good shot" being better than flinging 50 arrows. I never said not to practice, I just wanted folks to practice right, not just shoot 50 arrows for the sake of reaching that number. I would expect that most folks who enjoy this sport shoot more than 50 arrows a day, and I agreed that practice was essential for improveing. Immediately my post was picked apart and I felt once again like I don't have the qualifications to post my opinion here.
Sorry if I offended anyone today. Those truely weren't my intentions.
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Originally posted by JC:
When you practice form and you are focusing on say your release, aren't you also trying to keep good form with your bow arm?
JC, I'm far from the best shot here, but I was taught how to practice by Len Cardinale. What he taught me makes sense and it's worked for me when I still had training wheels on my bow.
When you are practicing, you work on and focus on one thing at a time. In your example, if you are working on your hand, focus on the hand alone through the entire shot, and not on anything else. You want to make a good shot, but don't worry about what is happening to your bow arm. Address that on the next arrow. This is the means of taking your form to the subconscious level.
There are some who are gifted with extrodinary hand eye coordination. These archers can make an accurate shot from nearly any position with minimal practice. I'm not one of those and I think that most archers are not in that catagory. I have to practice form until I've got it down on a subconscious level.
Only then can I trust my shot.
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When you practice form and you are focusing on say your release, aren't you also trying to keep good form with your bow arm?
No, personally, I would not be thinking about my bowarm if I was working on my release.
If my bowarm needed work, I'd work on it seperately on another day.
To me, the aiming/concentrating is just as much of form as the release or bow arm etc.
I think the same way. And when I work on accuracy which is pretty much every other practice session, my other areas are already burnt in (hopefully) so I don't have to think about them at all. Only the target gets the full concentration.
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LCB, no offense taken here. I think it's just some communication difficulties between those of different trains of thought. My belief is "one well thought out shot" teaches me very little. 25, and I use that number arbitrarily, well practised shots teach me a lot, 50 of the same teaches me more, 100 etc. etc.
In no other sport that I can think of do you do something just a little. My sons go to private baseball coaching. In the cages, they'll swing well over 100 times at live balls, trying to hit every time. The coaches point out after every swing the form corrections and they try it on the next swing...but they don't stop foot position work to concentrate on hand position, or bat position, or head position etc....it's all worked on at the same time. I've seen this in every sport I can think of...working on mechanics as a whole instead of seperately....because that's the way they are used. Though it may not work for some, it certainly works...as convincingly as the "seperation" method does with you.
AllenR, ahh yes, Len Cardinale. A superb coach I hear, with many years of history and credentials to back it up. I have known a few who learned from him, and all felt as you do...his teaching is obviously consistent. However, it's not the only way to go about developing an accurate shot. Again, just a matter of some folks doing it differently...I don't think you need to seperate those mechanics or precesses out to work on them. You can, or at least I can and whole bunch I know can, work on them as a collective. To me, it's not possible to make a good shot and not worry about what is happening with your bow arm...if you drop your bow arm, it's not going to go where it should therefore it cannot be a good shot. But maybe that's just because of the way I shoot, and learned how to shoot.
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Alright apart from the uhh war weve got goin here lol im taking alot of this advice in and actualy getting pretty decent results. I love how sometimes when you shoot an arrow in the gold and stare at its nock you can land another arrow right beside it sometimes.
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Rabbit Stew - Ignore the friendly debate, but absorb the knowledge...these guys have all shot for awhile, and I know for sure at least some of them are darned GOOD at it. The fact that there even is a debate tells us that there is more than one way to skin this cat.
Try a couple of things, create a training regimen for yourself. Heres what I do, at least a couple times a week:
Stand it front of a large target, close your eyes, and work on your form. Think about everything...your bow hand gripping the bow consistently, your fingers grabbing the string the same way, your anchor, your release.
Then step back further. Maybe 15 yards. Focus on a spot...bore a hole through it. Shoot. This is where you find out how long it is natural for you to hold. It's different for everyone.
Then step back to FURTHER than you are comfortable with. For me thats about 40 yards. This is where you realy watch the arrows fly. Any weakness in your form will show up here.
Do this a couple times a week...maybe the whole process is 20 arrows, maybe 50. Don't shoot anymore when your focus starts to wander, or your muscles are tired. Thats where the bad habits creep in.
Enjoy the process. Shooting a sightless bow well is a great feeling.
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P.S. - spend some time studying Terry's "Form Clock"...it's excellent.
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Do this a couple times a week...maybe the whole process is 20 arrows, maybe 50. Don't shoot anymore when your focus starts to wander, or your muscles are tired. Thats where the bad habits creep in
Roger thank you. Maybe it didn't come across as I intended but the above quote is what I meant by "ONE ARROW" the number was irrelivent. I was trying to explain that at first sometimes fewer shots using proper form is better than a bunch of sloppy ones. "one" was taken literally, and that was not my intention.
JC you have supplied some valuable information in this post, and I agree that repetition builds a good platform. I myself shoot hundreds of arrows a week, constantly trying perfect my form, but I had to build up to this level of shooting and avoid injury along the way. Ya'll have a nice evening.
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Originally posted by Roger Norris:
The fact that there even is a debate tells us that there is more than one way to skin this cat.
And that, Rabbit Stew, is exactly the reason for this type of debate (certainly not war). I think it's important for newcomers to understand there are many paths to the same destination in traditional archery....you just need to find the right one for you. Trying multiple things until you develop and really "know" your shot is a great way to learn. Taking bits and pieces of advice from multiple shooters, keeping what works for you, discarding what doesn't is often the nature of the journey.
If you get the chance to do a short video of yourself from both sides, behind, and overhead while shooting, I'm confident the feedback you would get on this forum will do wonders for speeding up your learning curve...no matter how many or few arrows we tell you to shoot ;) You may want to check out the numerous form videos already posted to get an idea of how it should (and sometimes shouldn't) look.
Good luck, enjoy the journey and remember there's no good reason to get frustrated if you hit a wall, lots of great folks willing to help out here on Tradgang.