Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: artvin on September 25, 2007, 07:33:00 PM
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I know most of us in here are primarily hunters, but this could affect many.
There is a proposition coming up for vote in the NFAA to limit all classes to only compound. Freestyle, Freestyle Limited, Bowhunter, and Barebow will be the only classes. FITA style recurve and traditonal classes may drop by the way side.
If there are any tournament shooters in the traditional class you need to contact your State Director regarding this measure.
Wheather you are a competitive shooter or not, Indoor Dot shooting is one of the better ways to really work on your shooting form.
Art
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It Cant Be Because the U.S. has a Lock on the Sport, doesnt Korea pretty Much Dominate that Discipline?
THAT is Nothing but a Slap-In-The-Face for Competition Recurve, FITA Competitors, is it not?
So if I get the Greenery and the Championships Needed to "Shoot Vegas", it HAS to be with a Compound? It just aint Right I tell ya, it Just aint Right.
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I for one just sent an email to NFAA asking for some details on this measure. It does come as a surprise that a motion like this would come up. NFAA has had a decline in members for the last few years ( that is why they raised my dues, their words). After almost 30 years I for one would not see any reason to belong.
Another thought has crossed my mind, how could a club put on a shoot that says "NFAA rules apply" to awards etc. and shooting styles. I can not seeing our club doing it. That is a sure way to lose shooters and income.
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M60gunner,
You can go to the NFAA web site and read the proposal.
https://www.nfaausa.com/documents-forms/
Go down to the minutes of the Sept meeting. The paragraph concerning this is towards the bottom of the page.
Art
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Well, that is sad, as their sport and their organization were founded by stickbow archers. If they leave us, we will have to leave them. The JOAD (Junior Olympic Archery Development) archers would be abandoned by this proposed action too, and those young people lost to the sport, perhaps for life. Very sad and short sighted.
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The NFAA has long been moving away from traditional shooters. Please don't include FITA in with traditional archers, sites, and long stablizers are not what traditional archers use.
It is a matter of money, or more correctly lack of numbers. Traditional archers, generally are hunters, and as hunters have moved away from NFAA type organizations when they turned their backs on the people who founded the group.
Did you know that when the organization first came into being, that no two courses were the same? Did you know that all of the distances were unmarked? Did you know that the range was shot with dirt bank butts, and that broadheads were the points used?
I think that the distinction between target and hunting has gone from a line, to a wall. Now I have seen the same thing in 3d, it is not a sport that simulates hunting anymore, but one that is set up for high tech "Race" bows. I can remember that you shot from a stake, or streamer and the only thing that was promised was that the kill area was clear, you had to sometimes lean to make the shot, it taught you the shots you should not take, and taught you how to make the others.
I am afraid that there is no one group that will be all and everything to all archers. Maybe this will breed a group of traditional target archers, who set the rules to further the skills of bowhunting.
Just a thought.
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All competitive organizations in archery evolve to be controlled by the top 10% of the shooters. The NFAA began with those people who were tired of standing in field (NAA) and shooting. They wanted terrain and unmarked distances like bowhunting. This evoled to field archery, which is target archery today. The IBO evolved from disgruntled NFAA shooters who wanted a more bowhunting oriented target (3d) and were tired of "spot shooting". The IBO today is target archery with an animal target. Traditional archery 3d tournaments are the only shoots I have been to where the emphasis on each situation is solving a shooting delima simulating actual bowhunting scenerios. Competitive archery will always work to please the top shooters. Here is an example: The NFAA changed the size of the target years ago becuase too many people shot perfect. When they made it smaller they lost 1/2 there membership coming to the nationals. Made it too hard for the average guy. Look at current 3-D. Why do you need a 12 ring or even smaller on a round that you are saying is to simulate bowhunting. Does anyone hunt with a 30" stabilizer and a 4 power scope. 3D is target archery in its current form. If you ask why the NFAA is going to drop traditional, it is money. At the club level noone can support the current classes that are offered by the NFAA. A club cannot afford to buy awards for all the classes they have. Some class will have to be cut. That will be the one that the least people participate in. Most traditional archers I know are bowhunters. NFAA field round do not lend themselves to bowhunting practice and no competitive traditional archer I know shoots instinctive at NFAA targets. Hence the lack of participation and the cutting of the class will probably happen. I bet you will see the compound nonsight cut or consolidated into one barebow class.
Jeff Schulz
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It is true there are too many classes. But there is another remedy. That is to reduce or eliminate the age classifications in the smaller classes. In longbow, recurve primitive and traditional classes, where they are now offered; and perhaps in such classes as FITA recurve and barebow in localities where the classes are small, age does not seem to be much of a factor.
In my area the trad classes are often won by master seniors or seniors and we would mostly be glad to shoot with the regular adults. Perhaps the youths would too if the classes are small. The cubs and peewees could be combined and everybody given a participation award and group applause. We do that hereabouts anyway and the kids enjoy that more than placing awards we also give them, I believe.
There is a lot of similarity between the barebow (face and stringwalkers) recurve style and the barebow compound class. They could be combined unless turnout is large in some region, as it way well be.
I see little need for both A, B, C flights as well as Adult, Senior and Master Senior divisions even in the principal compound classes.
Regarding trophies. I don't think most of us value most of them. Club pins, blue ones for the winners, yes. I have a pint jar of them and like getting them. Maybe a medal for a major event. I think a belt buckle for first place is a nice award. Free standing trophies? No room in my place for them.
So, yes, I think there are too many classes and
tabulation and awards take a painfully long time. And a lot of money is spent on trophies that are not much valued and mostly get discarded.
But I think some consolidation, mainly of age groupings in the smaller classes is an appropriate remedy. Kicking whole styles out of the game seems........unfair, intolerant, dumb, wrong.
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I think an organization geared to or for traditional shooters would be great. I think, if they stayed true to the goal of becoming better shots, under realistic(I stress that word)hunting conditions.
In Texas, the Traditional Bowhunters of Texas, don't have a range, but leases ranges for the weekend all across the state. They allow only recurves, longbows, or self-bows without sights and draws large numbers of shooters, of all ages.
I think it is time for traditional bowhunters to band together and start local, or state groups for that purpose. I agree, the top ten percent of shooters often wind up getting most of the grease. I will add that most of the top shooters are not, at least in most cases, real hunters. They may hunt, but punching paper, or shooting at a twelve rings at 3D targets on what seems to be a Golf Course is his or her thing.
Another thing that would be an asset to a group like this is the fact that Ego, at least for the most part, is not all that big a problem with traditional archers. It would also help to keep the "Big Money" out of it, because then you get people trying to change things.
Most of us would agree, realistic targets, placed at realistic ranges, on a beautiful course having some ups and downs, with like minded people from all walks of life. The only thing I would enjoy better, is sharing a hunting camp fire with friends, and talking about the one that didn't get away.
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Until you get some "BIG MONEY" involved, we trad archers will have to accept what these archery organizations offer (ASA, IBO, NFAA, NAA) etc.. You cant run an organization on charity and the wants of a few. Looking at it in the business perspective who can blame them for culling the trad group. The trad group in relation to the rest of the archery world has a pretty narrow focus. That focus is 20 yards and under at 3-D animal targets, some dislike competition, etc.. When the focus can resume back to the days of archery as more than a foam puncher....we might see our ranks within these organization grow stronger. I for one would love to see a national traditional archery organization come together. It would have to consist of more than 20 yard hunting shots to survive though. I wouldn't want to see a trad organization that dumb-down the challenge of archery, just to fill a niche within the trad community. Various classes of shooters with various formats of shooting.....just a thought from the dark side
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John,
We are on the same page, I have to take issue with you on the twenty yard thing. I think your were using it as metaphor, but the shoots we take part in will give you shots out to forty and sometimes fifty yards.
Not too bad on shedding some light for a guy from the Dark Side!
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Scott
Your correct. I was using the 20 yard thing as a metaphor. I dont mean it to be a sarcastic metaphor. But in the trad world it sometimes seems we have narrowed down to this thinking. I like all facets of the game! It makes us well rounded archers!
I'm not really from the dark side I just like to understand from the other side of the coin sometimes. In most cases....we dug our own hole ;) :D
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John, You are right on one thing."We dug our own hole". Trad archery is heading toward high tech and high tech is constantly moveing away from trad?
You are wrong on another statement.Understanding the other side didn't make you a well rounded archer, Cindy,s cooking and Bojangles chicken was the cause. :)
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Nature of the beast....were always trying to improve. I would say thats not the case in every place though. Plenty of die hard trad guys out their.
Matt E were do you get your info.....you haven't been allowed out of your house in 3 years(LOL) ;)
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John ole friend, my wife let me out for a few minutes day before yesterday! :)
When are you coming down our way. The wizard was asking about you ? He wants to put on another feed at his place. This should be an enticement........ Could I be charged for baiting? :)
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Matt E.
I ain't goin no where till I get a personal invite from the wizard. I know that will be tough since he forgot how to use his phone. Crazy ain't it....he dosent even owe me money (LOL) :p
Give me a call when your evening cell minutes are free you ole tight rascal! ;) :D
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I will get him to call you. I will let him use my cell phone. You know his phone system is two cans and a string. :)
Who are you callin tight? I prefer the word frugal! :)
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You prefer the word "fruity" ...........flipped a new leaf huh! :eek: ;) :D
Give me a call. I'm looking forward to hearing from you! :D
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Improvement is always good, but not by any and all means. If you take a recurve bow, long bow, self bow, compound bow, in a shooting machine it can shoot to the same hole repeatedly over a given distance.
Seems to me that the improvement should be made behind the bow, and not in the bow. Traditional archery appeals to those who don't mind putting in the work, effort, and study. Yes, I said study, to learn the correct ways of setting up the bow, making bows, building strings..etc..
Target archery went to **ll when it became more focused on the shooting higher scores.
The bows changed to make what was once a challenge, to be less of one, for the purpose of making more money, not for furtherance of the sport of archey, target archery, or hunting. If these people could make more money by kicking us all out of the sport, most of them would.
Have we been our on worst emeny?, Yes and no. We have expressed our desire to have a target forum, but most of our ranks are not "purest". Before anyone gets there quivers in a knot, hear me out.
I have read many a response to these threads, where the guy or gal will say, Oh, I hunt with a compound, or I rifle hunt, or a combination of all three. It is hard to have a strong alliance, or dedication to something when your interest is so wide spread.
Yes, being a two season hunter is still alive and well. I am not saying it is a bad thing, only that it is a factor. I hunt only with a traditional bow, it doesn't make me a better, wiser, or cooler person. It has given me a strong desire to protect what I think is important in that area.
While I enjoyed target shooting, once, and I think that a traditional class should be maintained, and participation should be encouraged(which it isn't from either side)I choose to omit that type of shooting from my traditional experience.
Can it be a benefit to the traditional bowhunter, of course it could. The problem is that you can make rules for participation, but you can't make rules of attitudes. I for one believe that a field archery organization set up for stickbow shooters would work. It's goal could not, and should mirror the NFAA, it would have to be one where the individuals goals would be allowed to grow.
Personally I think a target butt with a spot target, home course with a few 3D targets with a treestand of two thrown in, enjoyed by a friend or two can be more fun, and better practice for hunting.
Just my opinion, and we all know that my opinion and $1.30 will get you a large cup of coffee at MacDonalds. Nuff Said!
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I'm really interested in the tone of this thread . Here in Australia we have the same issues and attidudes I have seen expressed here .In my opinion forming our own organisations has its place but in the end in this day and age when the anti everything archery or shooting get into us , it only weakens our position if we are fractured into a number of groups that are reluctant to talk to each other .
It is up to us as traditional archers to shoot in these organisations and participate in there form of archery and force them to accomadate us - make those money decisions in our favour .
In this country we tend to sit around and whine about what the organisations could do better and then use this as an excuse not to participate . I got off my butt and actually got some important changes made - not exactly what was needed but they listened to me .
We traditional mob be us pre glass or post glass have a lot more history on our side and the techno stuff is chasing our legacy , but we are all archers . regards Perry
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Jacko,
My hat is off to you, I understand your point, however when a group stops sharing your best interest, what do you???? That is why we have so many groups. My suggestion would be to have a sportsmans congress.
They you could have your perspective groups, that share your best interest, and have your representatives as part of the congress when a united front is required. I agree that we all have a common interest, however that will never be addressed by one group that is the jack of all trades, and master of none.
I hold to the idea that we could use a traditional target archery group. Maybe we wouldn't have targets out to eighty yards, maybe our courses would be a combination of 3D and paper targets, maybe the ranges would be unmarked, maybe some would be through the brush(vitals exposed), maybe you could have three levels of partication, the bronze course, silver course, and the gold course. That way you could shoot with similarly skilled archers, and gauge your progress....it goes on and on. These are things the big boys, NFAA, would not do for fear of having the big shots scores go down. Forgive me, I digress.
I fully understand your point about not diluting, I still contribute to the NRA, and other groups that protect my rights to hunt, and protect my rights to have access to land to hunt on.
Cheers!
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Amen Jacko! To much internal division is our weakness!
Why can't we play more than one trad archery game. Seems to me were dumming things down if we set every tournament and archery event up at 20 yards and under. I guess thats why I'm an archer first. A bowhunter second. The better I am at shooting in any situation, game, event, tournament, etc....the better I will be in the woods as far as accuracy goes. Plenty of backstraps in my freezer to prove my point too. :)
Would love to see a national trad orginization that sanctions shoots like ASA, IBO etc.
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Excuse me, where did anyone say anything about 20yards and under? Why is that some kind of holy number? News flash, most traditional archers are notarchers first, they are bowhunters.
This different mind-set has been a problem for years.If you are an archer first, then you are looking at this from a totally different point of view. There is nothing wrong with that, but the end of target archery(God forbid)would not mean the end of bowhunting.
I was told by a Bear Archery Rep, that target archers make a bow famos, but it is the bowhunters who buy archery gear. There are not enough "target archers" to cover the bottom line.
As far as a National organization sanctioning shoots like the ASA, or IBO, I disagree. They would have to be structured to be different. If you haven't noticed, the number of shooters shooting in these shoots have dropped in recent years also. They are a good point to start, but they are not without problems too.
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Scott
Your excused.
I believe you misunderstood my post as far as sanctioning shoots by a trad organization. I was refferring to the ASA and IBO for refference only...not as a model to copy in their "structure"
The 20 yard thing. Is exactly what it is. Theres a whole lot more to having archery fun, competitions etc...than setting up every trad event in a hunting manner. I am a hunter myself but I sure dont want to limit myself while enjoying shooting my bow in competition to 20 yards. I guess I'm with the 50s and 60s crowd that had alot more spice to archery competitions in their day. Nowdays if your a club holding a shoot you dare not put a target beyond hunting range without taking alot of heat. Just wish the trad community would embrace what this sport really can be. Narrow mindedness has gotten it where it is in some situations. And yes bowhunters make up the majority of archers but what about the thousands of archers going to tournaments. Wouldnt it be nice to have a traditional archery organization that sanctioned these individual trad shoots and gave us some organization. Organization would start a standard to competition, could organize hunting style competitions and for those wanting a challenge might offer field style shooting, ariel etc.......it might even open a few eyes :D
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John,
I don't know what kind of hunting clubs you guys have in North Carolina, but here in Texas, in Florida, in Michigan, and every other place I have competed in between, the 20 yard mark is not the max.
I regularly shoot in traditional shoots where you are just a likely to come around the bend and see a coyote at thirty plus, or an elk at forty.
If you read my earlier post, I even suggested a progessive level of competition for traditional shoots.
Similar to A, B, and C classes. The ranges would be different with a higher degree of challenge for each progressive level.
Not everyone wants to shoot sixty yards, like not everyone is crazy about 20 yards or less. I personally don't like ranges set up in what look like golf courses, where there is nothing remotely similar to a bush with twenty yards of the target.
I am a bowhunter, most traditional archers are too, I understand not all. But the division in mindset between what we called paper punchers and hunters is a gap that I am afraid will never be bridged. That gap is the problem, and is responsible for the lack of participation in the NFAA.
It seems that the NFAA has forgotten it's roots. Even their national shoot is only a shadow of what it once was. Why do you think that is so? It is for the reasons I have just detail, and I was a member of that group from 1977 until 1988.
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Scott
I like this idea you stated
"Similar to A, B, and C classes. The ranges would be different with a higher degree of challenge for each progressive level."
The division between most of the target archers and bowhunters out their today usuall resides within their initial opinions. Once there on the range things clear up for most and some maybe not. Competition may not be for everyone. But thats off the subject. Times change.....NFAA not withstanding in all areas. But that would not stop another organization fron starting it roots with todays trad frame of mind. I would love to see a trad organization come together. Would be tough probably. Takes money to greese the wheels.
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Here's my 2 cents in regards to classes.
From what I see...there are basically 2 seperate mind sets in regards to archers and competitions should be geared to meet those groups specific goals and desires.
There's Target Archers. There's Bowhunters and than there's archers who like to do both.
I think it would be great to see just 2 basic classes in Barebow Trad 3D.
Not everyone wants to shoot at targets 60yrds. away or further and not everyone wants to be limited to hunting only shots.
One class would be the Bowhunter class where the shooting stakes were set at realistic or typical hunting distances and the archers would use equipment they would normally use while bowhunting.
The second class would be Target Archers where the shooting stakes were set up at more challenging distances and the archers would use whatever they felt they needed to be competitive.
Just a thought.
Ray ;)
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Gee Wolf,
Sounds like the typical 3D shoot to me.
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Gee Scotty,
Than you're a lucky man to have 3D shoots like that to shoot in ;)
Ray ;)
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Not too many trad archers are comfortable with a 50,60,70,80yd walk-up anymore.
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Scott, you're exactly right on every point you've brought up. Although, you didn't also point out that the long distance shots were part of the original vision the folks had back in the 30's when they founded NFAA. In the 30's folks, when most were shooting selfbows or backed with something like bamboo or baleen, LONG before we had recurves backed with linear glass.
The long shots are a TRADITIONAL part of the game. Traditional shooters have no reason to complain about them... unless they want to admit they aren't nearly the shooters our forebears were, even with bows and precision arrows they could never have dreamed of having.
If you want the traditional class to survive, then get out there and SHOOT! Those of us who helped get the traditional class started 20 years ago - NFAA didn't even have a traditional class before then - would like to see it continue.
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I enjoy shooting long distances but not at 3D. An 80 yard max unmarked distance 3D shoot around here would probably destroy most every arrow I have in my quiver. Now if they were large marked distance targets with good backstops it would be a blast. We dont have anything like that around here. But if they did. I would shoot it with no complaints.
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3 weeks ago the my club ran our annual traditional shoot . Last weekend I attended the 3d aaa national titles [ Ibo affiliated ]and was surprised and pleased to see that word had filtered down to the course setters on some of our target placement and a visiting US pro was impressed . Hopefully he will take these idea's to the states with him .
Traditional shooters can influence other archers and governing bodies in more ways than you think by simply doing things well , putting forward idea's and participating . This is the case if you bowhunt , shoot targets or both . In Australia I reckon we are chipping away at the governing bodies and will come up with compromise that strengthens traditional archery sooner than later , faster if we would spend less time complaining . regards Perry
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It looks like we all agree that we would like to have a large organized national/world recognized Traditional archery organization that holds local, state, regional, national and world championship tournaments each year like (IBO,ASA,NFAA,).
The first thing we need to do is stop eating our own! Trads (me included) are notorious for staying semi-underground in there small groups. We also tend to be a little closed minded when it comes to this wonderful sport we love so much and work very hard to pursue. More and more Folks that normally gun, compound hunt are coming over to our side because they see how fun and challenging it is and it brings the excitement back!
####I would like to get this post back on track and talk about ways that we can come together and start a National Traditional Archery Association that will monitor/regulate tournaments held all over the world.
This sound very difficult and it will be if we cant come together and figure it out as a team. Its not that hard if we break it down into steps.
The hardest part will be making the constitution/bylaws for the rules regulations. Classes will be a big thing and the exact guidance for each class will need to be clear. We will need to include everyone(style,age,sex,etc...) Some of the large Traditional shoots that are held all over the U.S already have decent rules and regulations set. We can talk to these folks and use the rules that work from them. Don't forget about all the fun novelty shoots that could be spread out all over. They could pay back 50% of the cash to the highest score at the end of the day.
The small clubs that are already out there throughout the world will just need to follow the rules and publicly promote the shoots. It will start small and eventually get bigger.
ASA started in the south east and spread over time to the entire east coast and eventually westward. IBO was in the northern areas and spread like wildfire but it took time and a lot of determined people to get/keep it going. We have everything we need right now to make it happen we just need to use our connections/resources/heads and try to figure this out. We are already doing it we just don't do it together as one.
Sit back and think of how many Trad shoots you and your buddies went to that had the normal tournament range and a ton of other novelty shoots. Remember the venders and demonstrations and dont forget the food...WOW!!
One of my most treasured trophies is from a canoe shoot in NC. You are in a canoe with a life jacket on and a guy is paddling you down the river about 15 yards off the bank. The targets are from the bank to about 20 yards up in the woods. They have two color coded milk jugs spaces about five yards apart in your path. You cant draw until you pass the first jug and you must shoot before you pass the second jug. This was very difficult and that is what made it so popular. It was a blast!!
If you cant bring up any memories of anything like this you need to get out there and find them. This sport is way bigger than any of our backyards.
This will take time, effort by everyone mentally/phisically and patience.
You thoughts,,,,,,,,,,,,,Akbearb8
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A couple of years ago some far sighted traditional archers started an Organisation called Traditional Archery Australia , they are not a governing body have no desire to be , the goal is to unify & promote Traditional archery in this country . Part of TAA is Australian Archery Crafters Guild ,The previous 2 Traditional shoots my club has held we have held small but high quality craft shows . Many of us have joined these organisations and continue to support them .
Traditional Archery Australia has some influencial people from our archery scene some with much international competition target archery and national administrative experience .
From my veiw they seem to be struggling a bit with many people veiwing TAA with suspision and the first question out of these peoples mouths is "what are they going to do for me ? " Seems to me everyone will jump on the bandwagon when the ball is rolling . I have been a bit slack with submitting idea's and articles for the newsletters myself .
Seems I had better get off my backside and submitt my idea's to TAA on the definitions of bow divisions , articles for there newsletters , standard rules , formats for traditional shoots etc . Once TAA is up and going strong perhaps they will be able to share what there up to internationally . I will refer some of the commitee of TAA too this thread . regards Perry