Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: The Gopher on October 03, 2007, 08:04:00 AM
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Hey there, i'm not really new to trad archery but i am starting to take it more seriously. i have always been an instinctive shooter but recently gave gap shooting a try and have found it easy to pick up and accurate. So my question is this. are you folks gap shooters or instinctive shooters and why? Also are there any good books or resources on gap shooting? i know there are some great books on instinctive shooting. thanks, Dan.
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i just started with gap...enjoyed it...so I kept using it.
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Yes! to both... The more I practice gap, the better instinctive shooter I become. It is not a one or the other proposition for me. H.Hill used both methods to their best advantage. He shot gap to win an insane amount of tournaments and instinctive method for hunting and tick shooting.
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im an instictive gap shooter. i line things up and concentrate on a perfect gap if theres time but then i can pick a spot and let it fly if neccesary at close range. longer range and hunting shots are gap only because under pressure when i try instictive, i always release to soon and using a gap method it really makes me anchor and concentrate. also when under pressure, i do not have faith in "looking at the spot only" i need somthing(the arrowpoint) to use as a referace and assure me everything is lined up and alright... just my .02 worth
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There is no real thing as "instinctive" shooting. Unless, of course, you shoot with your eyes closed. :scared: If you are simply concentrating on the spot you want to hit. Your subconscious mind is still making the necessary references of arrow alignment to the target. If the brain feels the alignment isn't correct :knothead:
Art
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I agree with the above comments. I'm an "instinctive gap shooter", if there is such a thing.
Check out the "Master's of the Barebow" video, it will give you some good tips on different shooting methods.
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Hill was not an instinctive shooter at all, he wasn't a true gap shooter either. He described his shooting method as "Split Vision". He would pick up the tip of the arrow in his secondary vision, while focusing on the spot. It is very close to what Byron Ferguson does. Hill would say repeatedly that an instinctive shooter could never be consistant.
While I on the other hand am an instinctive shooter, I will partially agree with the late Mr. Hill. I must practice constantly if I am to stay on top of my game.
I came back to traditional archery because I got sick of sights and range finders..I wanted a system that allowed for rapid response, and was simple to do.
To me, if I must develope a gap it requires way too much time..I hold my own when hunting, or against other instinctive shooters in competition. I can stay close to the gap guys at 3D, but that is a tough system to beat. In the woods, I often find that I can get into actions faster shooting instinctive.
I killed a nice hog last year on a running shot at 16 yards. My fiancee and I were sharing a pop up blind and I was trying to get her a shot. We had just moved the blind and brushed it in, earlier in the afternoon. We settled in no more than an hour when a sounder of pigs came through. One came to within three feet of the blind, with another passing to the rear about the same distance. The pig was facing the blind, so Samantha decided, wisely, not to shoot. When the pig decided to leave, it took a wide arc, along the trail that a larger sow, and about twenty other pigs took. You see, that large sow knew something was wrong, darn these pigs are smart.
When she hit the trail, she was moving low and fast. I whispered to Samantha asking if she had the shot, she told me no. I didn't have a lot of time, I whispered to her as I was drawing, I've got it, I laced that arrow between three sets of trees connecting with a heart shot at 16 yards. That shot could not have been made if I were a gap shooter. I have made a number of shots like that over the years. I can't argue that gap shooting iunder most controlled situations more effective, but where and the way I hunt, more times than not, it's look and shoot.
For all of you gap shooters out there, I tip my hat to you. For me, make mine instinctive.
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Thanks for all of your input guys. Are Asbell's books on instictive shooting the best ones out there? Are there any good books on gap shooting? thanks, Dan.
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Don't learn to shoot from Asbell. His style is his style period.
Here's some strong advise most traditional shooters should take. Get some good coaching. Not from a friend that is a pretty good shooter. But, from a qualified archery coach. Think about this....if a guy like Tiger Woods constantly works with a coach, perhaps we should too.
Most of the advise you will get from other shooters you shoot with is wrong advise and will lead to developing some pretty bad habits.
Asebel is one of the worst to follow. If you think not get him out on a 3-D course sometime.
Understand that there are some pretty bad shooters out there that take game every year with traditional equipment. Most are very good hunters and there is a difference between being a guy that can hit a pie plate at 15 yards and a guy that can shoot a 4" group at 30 yards. It's all about proper shooting form.
Nothing wrong with the pie plate guy. You have to decide which you want to be. The so called instinctive shooter will have days he can shoot really tight groups and days he can't keep on the pie plate. The gap shooter will be more consistant. Both styles take work, consistant work.
Learning to shoot well isn't about hitting a target. It's about developing proper shooting form that you can duplicate everytime you shoot an arrow. If it is "right" on your end the arrow will go where you want it to. If it is wrong on your end the arrow 'might' go where you want it to.
Art
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I have to dissagree with a lot of what artvin said.
The very 1st shooting video I ever watched was Asbel's, and I pick up a few things....left some others on the table.
You have to decide what aiming method works best for you and your style...and YOU have to decide that for yourself....and not let someone make it for you that doesn't have a clue as to what method might work for you.
You CAN learn to shoot without a coach. This sight has proved it over and OVER. One only needs to actually spend some time on this forum reading to see that many here have improved...and some have GREATLY improved and some even posted their 1st kills.
I learned from watching other people shoot, and watching other videos, and reading books. Don't let ANYONE tell you you can't be a good shot without a personal coach.
'Instinctive' is only a term used to describe an aiming method.....and was never intended be used as the litteral meaning as most of the old timers I know will tell you. Trying to dispell instinctive seems to be brought about by those that can't shoot that way, or don't really understand it. BTW, I am not knocking gap shooting so don't go thinking that. I couldn't gap shoot my way out of a barn from the inside....but I don't go knocking gap shooters.
Proper alignment is much more important than how you aim IMO.....cause proper alignment will allow you to create shots in the field and execute them with greater accuracy no matter how you aim.
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I normally shoot instinctive out to about thirty yards. After that I like to gap. Works for me.
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The more I read about this the more confused I get. I grab my curve- head up on the roof of my pole barn and shoot. I've got 5 targets out at different yardages, shoot one arrow at each target, climb down, repeat. I only concentrate on the spot I want the arrow to go. I never look at the tip and try to determine where it needs to be to hit my target. I tried this summer to learn the gap- and shot like a machine gun- spraying and praying. Am I doing something wrong shooting my way? I don't think so, I can hold my own with a lot of the guys I shoot with-them shooting compounds. Should I switch to gap, or learn how to do it??? Or be content that I am confident shooting "instinctive" if thats what it's called?
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your style is your style only. your style is the easiest to learn....FOR YOU!! throw your ideas out there but dont preach them as the esiest, best, most accurate or most practical because your personal style is just that. you may use anothers style for you basis but you have, whether you realize it or not, have developed your own personal way and it is the best way for you and you only. be open but dont preach and thrust your ideas on anyone.
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As an insturctor of Martial Art, Defensive Tactics for Police, and Certified instructor of Police, I try very hard not to let my opinion get in the way of the facts. I have stated it time and time again, in regard to shooting a bow, there are things that must be mastered if one is going to be a consistant shot. Unwavering focus on what you want to hit, a push/pull draw with ever expanding back tension through the release, a solid and consistant anchor, and a rock solid bow hand and follow-through. Beyond that, I could not care less if you are a gap shooter, instinctive shooter, gun barrel shooter, three fingers under guy, or whatever.
The things that make my shooting unique include the way I stand, foot position, the way I grip the bow, the degree of cant I use. Those things might work for you, but most likely won't work for everyone.
Our bodies are build different, we all have different genetic compositions and injuries that can force us to shoot slightly differently. All of these factors will determine to a degree how, or what style we will shoot better. I take pride in what I have obtained, not that I am better than someone else, but because I get better every year(using myself as the gauge for comparison), In other words, I am better than I was a year ago. I learn more everyday, as stated above, sometimes I use what I see, sometimes I don't. My way is not better for everyone, it is just better for me.
I for one am not comfortable with giving advice lightly. I want everyone that I provide imput, to benefit and not get more confused. I can honestly say, that most people that I have assisted in shooting, became a better shot than I am. I think that is great! The reason that is great is not because I am something special, it is great because that person will stay in the sport, they will tell others and impart that same knowleged and they will stay.
On the other hand, if I tell someone that shooting instinctive is the only way to go, and that method is not right for them, they may drop the sport totally. They may go into the woods and gut shoot an animal. My ego, what there is left of it, is not worth that kind of result.
I had spend ten years in target archery, I can tell you right now that most archery coaches have little or no knowlege about gap shooting, or instinctive shooting. If the bow isn't equiped with a scope or sight they would be lost. Sure they could teach the basics, as I described them above, but anyone could learn those themselves, using videos, a digital camera, and or video camera to check that they are doing what they think they are doing.
Just a few things that I have learned over the years of instructing people in different disciplines. There are more than one way to skin a cat, you just have to take your time to find the right one for you.
NUFF SAID.
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I've always shot what ever worked at the time,,that's gaping or instinctive.
I've bought a number of different books and DVD's on shooting over the years,an two that stand out for me are,"Byron Furgusons book "become the arrow" but I think much of the DVD/VIDIO of the same name.
The one DVD that has struck a real cord with me,"Ricky Welshes Shooting instruction II.
I'm not much into discussing which form is best because we are all different,and I feel we need to find a system or form that works for us as inderviduals.
Good luck.
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Sorry I dont know of any book's or DVD's, I have'nt a clue what "gap aiming" is...hehee...Everyones body is different and changes over time, get some instruction and read up for sure, but YOU have to shoot those 10,000 arrows and it would be nice to be confident and comfortable that they are going to hit what their aimed at, so get a system that's repeatable. Just because your form isnt "perfect" doesnt mean it's "wrong", it's yours....
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I instinctively gap shoot. I'm aware of the gap, but I don’t take an exact measurement. How could I? A ruler? A tape measure? :) I hold the bow vertical to consistently dial in my horizontal. From there it's simply a matter of finding the right elevation. My elevation is determined by a combination of visually referencing the gap and feeling the elevation of the bow arm. This explanation is more complex than the actual process itself.
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I shoot instinctively also but I started out 36 years ago. One thing I have found out and all these years it takes comentment and shooting everyday (if you can). But age can start taking a toll. Where I could shoot 50 arrows a day now it is 20 to 25 before my 59 year old back starts to give out. To many years in the oil fields or refiners. Just do what works for you by trial and error. But the most important thing to remember is have fun doing it.
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I remember cleaning out my grandparent's basement after my grandfather passed away. Aside from a truck load of bowhunting equipment, there were several dozen trophys and metals from various tournaments he'd won over the years. If he were still alive today, I think he'd get a good chuckle out of being told that an instinctive shooter couldn't excell both in the field and on the shooting line.
He obviously knew what style of shooting worked best for him. I primarily gap shoot for the same reason; it works best for me. Everyone needs to make that same decision for themselves.
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"Are you folks gap shooters or instinctive shooters and why?"
I aim using Gap, Point of Aim and Instinctive depending on the shot and the situation
If the shot requires a quick shot I'll use Instinctive aiming.
If I have time I will Gap instinctively or as some say Instinctive Gap or Gapstinctive ;)
If the target is close to 90yrds. or further I will use Point of Aim.
If you want to learn how to aim Instinctively don't pay any attention those that say there is no such thing...their obviously clueless when it comes to that particular aiming techinique.
Ray ;)
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I Gap with a high anchor. Works for me....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/SteveMcD/deerready00.jpg)
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
You have to decide what aiming method works best for you and your style...and YOU have to decide that for yourself....and not let someone make it for you that doesn't have a clue as to what method might work for you.
You CAN learn to shoot without a coach. This sight has proved it over and OVER. One only needs to actually spend some time on this forum reading to see that many here have improved...and some have GREATLY improved and some even posted their 1st kills.
I learned from watching other people shoot, and watching other videos, and reading books. Don't let ANYONE tell you you can't be a good shot without a personal coach.
'Instinctive' is only a term used to describe an aiming method.....and was never intended be used as the litteral meaning as most of the old timers I know will tell you. Trying to dispell instinctive seems to be brought about by those that can't shoot that way, or don't really understand it. BTW, I am not knocking gap shooting so don't go thinking that. I couldn't gap shoot my way out of a barn from the inside....but I don't go knocking gap shooters.
Proper alignment is much more important than how you aim IMO.....cause proper alignment will allow you to create shots in the field and execute them with greater accuracy no matter how you aim.
Very well said.
I lterally re-taught myself to shoot barebow with the posted help of those such as Terry, JC, LBR, ect. No coach per-se, but a lot of trial & error, analyzing, and typing.
Hope I don't kick anyone's puppy here, but the biggest mistake I made was watching Fred Bear's hunting videos as instructive rather than entertainment, and trying to emulate his method.
His snap shooting, big cant style worked well for him, but was a disaster for me. Set me back months trying to master it and I never came close.
The best video I've watched so far in regard to executing the shot is Dead On Traditional by Scott Antzak(except for his "Fingers Of Steel Death Two Under" hold at full draw with an 80# Hatfield!!!). Although I haven't yet seen it, I understand Masters Of The Barebow
is one of, if not the best video to watch & learn from. I hope to get a copy for my birthday in November.
Alignment is everything. Once a guy gets this figured out, executing the shot literally falls into place overnight. You'll get so you know that arrow is going downtown or south the instant you release it.
A device that really helped me advance is the SRF Sight. I don't have them on my bows now as I found once the sight pictures are in the shoulder mounted computer, I didn't need them and it was actually easier to shoot w/o them.
Still, I would put one back on in an instant, and have absolutely no beef with the guys who use them as a stand alone system. I highly recommend the SRF Sight as a training tool or stand alone Trad sight.
For the record, like many who have posted all ready, I'm an "Instincti-Gap" shooter. I shoot Three Under, set my bows up with elevated rests, and use vanes rather than feathers.
As always, thanks for the insight, Terry...
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I agree with Terry! I watched Master's of the Barebow and frankly the explanation of gap shooting made my head spin. By the time I did all the calculations the critter would either have left or died of old age. Whatever method you use, practice is the key.
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I've been involved in several gap/instinctive/shoot'er when she feels right discussions and can say the biggest problem is people who can't or won't understand that different strokes are for different folks. Some people try gap and can't make it work. Some people shoot instinctive horribly, then learn gap and become great shots. Everyone has a different brain, different body and different experiences. All those mean that no two traditional shooters shoot exactly the same way.
I shoot instinctive, but, if I struggled with it and needed to try something different, I wouldn't shy away from someone trying to teach me gap or some other system.
I like the attitude on this board whereby people seem to be tolerant of various methods and share information without hesitation.
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I've had this discussion many times before.
Ever throw a baseball through a tire? Throw it right into the glove? How'd ya aim it? You just looked at your target & let 'er rip.
Same thing with instinctive shooting. Concentrate on a single tiny spot. With time & experience your mind can do all the same "calculations" with the bow & arrow that it can with a baseball. I've shot the opposite way instinctively, still do. I've shot in the pitch black at a laser dot on a target butt.
But regardless of what method you use, it still boils down to "focus" & "concentration" (assuming of course, good form).
To learn purely instinctive shooting, it really helps to visualize. Focus on the spot, concentrate & imagine the arrow flying directly to that spot before you even draw the bow. Never let your eyes wander from that spot or lose focus. When you have made a good shot, stop & close your eyes & "feel" the shot again, soak it all in. It takes practice, lots of it, & if you shoot with your dominate eye, it will be more difficult. As your eyes always wants to line up the arrow instead of focusing on the spot.
Focus
Concentrate
Visualize
Good for all styles!
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When you're throwing baseballs through tires, do you just count the times it goes in the hole, or do you also count the times it hits the tire and do you count when it misses the tire too?
Doesn't the glove also come to the ball, or have I just been seeing things?
If ball throwing is instinctive, does that mean that all arms are equal?
If one doesn't have particularly well developed eyesight and hand/eye coordination, can one acquire it by becoming the ball?
What about all those Trad folks in the beachers that didn't make the ball team? Can they awaken latent subconscious shooting talent by emulating the various trick shooting authors?
I think not.
On the other hand, if you first learn form (how to shoot the bow) and then learn gap, shots in the field will become automatic. Adjustments will be made quickly, unconsciously and you stand a good chance of punching your tag with regularity.
An interesting thing about the gap/split vision aiming method is that once the talent is acquired, it doesn't take shooting a bunch arrows on a daily basis to keep it honed, but it does require a precise range estimating system. That may be what a lot of folks stub their toes on. Acquiring a reliable and laser quick method of estimating yardage takes a lot of diligence. A gap shooter can start cold and if he has a good idea of the yardage, the first arrow will strike within inches of where he wants it to.
One of my favorite things to do now, when I can't be hunting, is to shoot my recurve with compounders. I dearly love to walk up to a line of c-bow shooters, pick an arbitrary target butt, say 50 yards, sink an arrow into the bull and then shoot the 35, 20, 25, etc, with similar results and with no warm up. Suddenly, thanks to ingrained shooting form and gap aiming, I'll find myself the center of an admiring circle of guys whose curiosity and respect I have aroused with my marksmanship. I usually offer them the opportunity to shoot my bow, but as a rule, there are no takers. In the days before I learned to gap there was no way that I could do that. I focused on a spot and hoped to God that the angle was right, but I really didn't know for sure until after the arrow was loosed. If the first arrow missed, I'd make an adjustment and the second arrow usually was a lot better. Any of you guys know that feeling?
Gap aiming, once mastered, is there to serve you and it doesn't take hours and hours of diligent practice to maintain it.
This year I hunted elk 18 days straight and didn't shoot an arrow until I shot my bull at 31 yards. Last year was about the same number of days, only it was 22 yards. I'm so focused on hunting, there's no time for practice, but with the gap method, there's no need to keep the edge accutely honed, nor do I need to be within 10 paces in order to be confident. Give me a break, even Tred Barta can kill moose at 6 paces...lol!
That's all I know.
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" it doesn't take shooting a bunch arrows on a daily basis to keep it honed" ...Neither does instinctive. But both take a lot of arrows to learn...ya can't improve by not doing something....and once you do learn, it don't take much to keep the rust off.
"walk up to a line of c-bow shooters, pick an arbitrary target butt, say 50 yards, sink an arrow into the bull and then shoot the 35, 20, 25, etc, with similar results and with no warm up."....Done that too, but started at 80 yards....yep, instinctive.
"Gap aiming, once mastered, is there to serve you and it doesn't take hours and hours of diligent practice to maintain it."...Yep, same with instinctive.
"nor do I need to be within 10 paces in order to be confident. " ...Neither do I, an instinctive shooter, and neither do all the instinctive shooting bowhunters I hunt with. Sorry, but instinctive shooting doesn't have a 10 or 20 yard limit. Alway amaizes me that that limit is set by non-instinctive shooters.
Again, some of those that can't do it like to discount the instinctive aiming method....I can't gap shoot, but I don't go around trying to discount it because it does work for folks, and who am I to tell them it doesn't just because I can't? Nor will I make false implications about gap shooting. ...nor will I let anyone make false implications about instinctive.
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Gotta disagree with Artvin & A.S.
This whole thing that once to learn to shoot instinctively, it's no longer instinctive is nonsense.
IMHO most guys are under bowed which requires them to gap shoot because there becomes too much required assesment for shot placement for instinctive shooting.
Bare bow tape has most guys shooting what - 45lbs or less? Not that there is anything wrong, it just requires much more time to learn to shoot instinctively with a light bow.
And yes todays gap shooter's shooting for a 12 ring on a 3d target will mostly outshoot a instinctive shooter, but instintinctive shooters dont shoot so they can hit a 12 ring, a 4" to 6" ring or lung/heart shoot is what we aim to hit.
Just shoot ya own way and make your shot.
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Sorry if I touched a nerve there Terry, I didn't mean to denigrate anyone's choice of method, the goal should be whatever suits your fancy. I was just echoing what is routinely posted on the boards by instinctive shooters themselves.
Much more important than whatever aiming method is used, is the teaching and acquisition of repeatable form. Without that, it doesn't matter how you aim. Until you know what a shot should feel like, you're just floundering around willy-nilly. Unfortunately, that is what I see a lot of.
I think many have been charmed away from the classic approach toward shooting form by charismatic and romantically dressed heroes that the average guy doesn't have a prayer of emulating. It works well for some physically gifted and highly motivated individuals, but it doesn't seem to be rubbing off on the rest, at least not so you"d notice (grin).
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Originally posted by Alsea:
Much more important than whatever aiming method is used, is the teaching and acquisition of repeatable form. Without that, it doesn't matter how you aim. (grin).
I couldnt' agree more....that's why I talk more about proper alignment than anything else.
Ya didn't hit a nerve...no worries. Just correcting indigenously posts about instinctive aiming. Those that can't shoot that way seem to claim all sorts of stuff, and often parrot the falsehoods that they have heard.
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I am at work now so I cant chime in much but I enjoyed this thread.
Know this is not a gun site so Terry zap this away of needed be but I think it pertains to the thread and bow shooting.
People see me bird hunting or bow shooting and ask how I aim or lead targets-how far ahead do you lead?? how do you aim?? I say this as I think I shoot bows alot like a shotgun (w/out the pattern!)
Honest answer is I dont know? truly! am I gap shooting? instinctive shooting? dont know-I am 34 now and been hunting and shooting since I could walk-Dad taught me how toi shoot guns-I taught myself how to shoot bows. I can hold my own-not the best not the worst-but it just boils down to what works for you and getting out on your range and putting arrows on target.
I will say this is you are having a bad day (like we all do) give it up. And I like shooting one arrow at a time at a target. The FIRST arrow I let loose that day is the most important arrow/as that would have been a hunting shot.
Later yall be safe and shoot straight
Jason
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Without good form there rarely is any consistant accuracy.
Without a good aiming techinique there rarely is any consistant accuracy.
Both form and aiming are very important in developing and achieving consistant accuracy.
As far as which one is more important...I would say they are about equal in regards to achieving consistant accuracy...but I would suggest an archer learn good form first so that the aiming aspect can be learned easier.
Ray ;)
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Good post Black Wolf....
Aiming IS important, no doubt....and IS important as form...BUT!...having proper alignment and perfect form means nothing if you don't have the aiming METHOD that works best for YOU. Whether you aim subconsiously or consiously(which ever suits you best)....is not as important as form and proper alignment.
Proper forum and alignment is more important than HOW you aim....and the aiming method that suits you best will serve you best.....but ya still gotta aim. Proper form and aligment means nothing if you don't aim at all.
Zat make sense?
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"away from the classic approach toward shooting form"
I've tried to convey that you CAN take the classical approach to shooting form, AND incorporate that you can take that form to the classical positions of bowhunters.....that form is a constant, that can be taken with you and allow you to manufacture shots in the field that are not classical positions on the target butt.
That once you have proper form and alignment, the aiming method that works for you, and your equipment tuned to the max...there is nothing you can't do with a trad bow.......cant, terrain, position will not dictate the shot...YOU will dictate the shot by taking your shot with you. Motivation? you bet! No matter your ability...this sport aint for the lazy if you want to be successful.
The power of positive thinking is much more productive than the drain of negative thinking.
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Couldn't agree with your more Terry! ;)
Ray ;)
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Look up the word 'instinctive'.
Oh wait...I'll do it for you ;)
Merriam Webster
Instinctive - 1 : of, RELATING to, or being instinct
2 : prompted by natural instinct OR PROPENSITY : arising spontaneously
As I said....Instinctive as it relates to aiming a barebow is 'instinct like'. It DOES NOT have to BE an instinct. It REALATES to an instinct because the aiming process is similar to how an instinct is mediated...which is mediated below the conscious level.
An archer, who aims instinctively, does NOT conciously use any reference points to adjust their aim like all the other aiming techiniques do, which is what basically seperates it from the others and is why it was given a seperate name to define it.
Ray ;)