Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: arkiewoodsman on November 02, 2007, 12:31:00 PM
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ive been shooting a longbow for a few months and the first advice i got was to shoot three under. i am fairly accurate that way at 20 yards or so but i see all the greats shooting split fingered. as dumb as this sounds i want to shoot split even though id have to relearn and im not as accurate. im also having a hard time finding a good anchor point since with 3 under i touch the fletching to the tip of my nose. what now? thoughts?
mmaman :banghead:
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i know exactly what you are thinking, i went thru that too when my father saw that i shot 3 under ( he shoots split). i didn't even know that i was doing it really, it just felt better, which leads me to my point. Do what works for you!!! i finally made the decision to shoot MY WAY! thats what all the greats did, they shot their way. Whether you're talking about Gap vs Instinctive or 3under vs Split. Maybe thats what made them legends, they forged their own trails. thats just the conclusion i have come too.
Rick
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While I shoot split finger, I agree with Rick. I would say that a lot of the current "Greats" shoot three fingers under. Having said that, here are few things that might make your transition a little smoother.
Use the middle finger at the corner of your mouth, instead of the index finger. The third finger will touch a spot on the side of your chin, that will be your draw check. To tell you the truth, when I started the middle finger in the corner of the mouth, I never really worried about a second anchor check. It just seemed so natural.
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I started shooting 3 under because I found I was more accurate that way, I believe it has less impact on the arrow. I also wanted to shoot split but whatever works works. I also anchor my middle finger, even shooting 3 under.
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I started shooting three fingers under because I had the worst release in the world and shooting split fingered made my arrows fish tail very badly. After a while I switched to split because my Bear recurve was tillered that way and shot better. But as all the other guys here have stated shoot what is comfortable to you. I was at Byron Ferguson's back in July and asked him the same question and his answer was the same. Do what feels good to you. Good luck to you
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number one goal putting arrow on target shoot the style that you are most accurate with i am more consistantly accurate 3 under but you will find with time you can shoot both ways your bow will be louder most likely 3 under good luck
Ralph
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I started shooting /3 , this fall, I seem to get more comfortable at anchor. It is louder, but the cleaner release for me, makes up for it.. Try it, dont feel right, try something else.
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Just preaching to the choir here, but I too say do what feels best.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with experimenting with different anchors and shooting styles/methods, though. Have fun and if you try Split, give yourself time to learn it and work out the bugs.
For the record, I shoot 3 Under. For me it's a stronger draw, cleaner release, and NO finger pinch (I hate that!)...
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3 under gets the arrow closer to the eye and allows for less problems with release for me. Think about it, if you have a finger above the arrow and one below you can't always release both at or near the same time. If you are below the last 2 fingers will follow the index fingers lead. Just what works for me. But it is kind of like a golf swing...what works for someone will definitely make you hook or slice it out of bounds!
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I just started doing 3 fingers under, and boy am I glad I found this method.
I was always split...just because...I don't know, I just always have since a kid.
But the "gap" aiming was just too "shaky".
With 3 fingers under, I put the tip of the arrow dead on the target and it hits the target there whether it be 10, 15, or 20 yards.
Don't need a rangefinder :D . As long as a know the targets within 20 yards, it's dead on.
I've only tried it out to 20 yards, but that's as far as I need really.
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I went to 3 under a little over a year ago because my index finger was infected and to sore on the corner. It really improved my accuracy. Over the last 4 or 5 weeks I have become more and more frustrated at the noise level I could not reduce. I forced myself back to split. It was an ugly battle. Arrows everywhere. But with my wifes help watching my form and getting my elbow aligned properly I am shooting more accurate than ever. Of course the 70" HH bow I got 3 weeks ago may have something to do with it. I just felt that bow should be shot split. It has also reduced my noise levels greatly. Also I anchor middle finger corner of mouth, index finger under and touching nostril.
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All the great don't shoot split finger.
Ok maybe they ain't so great,,,but Ricky Welsh shoots 3 under,Rod Jenkins shoots 3 under.
Hey,I take that back,,both Ricky and Rod are great.
Oh yeah,I won the Pacific 3D Championship Recurve unaided title, held between Australia and New Zealand last weekend and I also shoot 3 under,,,still not so great though,,,cheers.
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If your index finger is sore from shooting split finger, most likely your elbow is too high and you are torquing the string. I was having the same problem when I switched from 3 under to split. Once I figured out that my elbow as too high, my finger stopped hurting. Split is quieter and I feel that I have better control of the arrow, especially in hunting situations.
If you are more comfortable with 3 under, use it. I don't think the noise has much effect on game. I have shot deer using 3 under and they didn't complain about the noise. ;)
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question? If you shoot three under is your nocking point mark on the string above your arrow nocks ? If so, then you cant load that second arrow quick in case of a first arrow miss. You may also need to be looking down at your loading the arrow that way. With split you have a little more control over the arrow and dont need to look at loading at all just focusing on the game. Thats the way Howard shot.No body could beat him . I didnt say what was more comfortable or do not try split method only. Merely pointing out why the split fingered method is good.
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When I started shooting trad I shot split because that was the example at the time. I now shoot three under because it feels much better to me and I am more consistent with it. I shot a doe just this year using it, and I don't notice any more noise with shooting this way. Mark
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Originally posted by cvarcher:
question? If you shoot three under is your nocking point mark on the string above your arrow nocks ? If so, then you cant load that second arrow quick in case of a first arrow miss.
Sorry, but there's absolutely no reason you can't nock a second shot just as fast under the nock point as over.
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Here is a tip. Many archers will overtime allow there fingers to uncurl from the string prior to the loose and on the draw. This is a bad habit that happens quickly with some and develops over years with others, but it leads to a lose of control.
I think with threeunder there is less of a likelyhood of this happening due to there being no arrow nock between the first and second finger. Next time you shoot, as an experiment, shoot split finger but when you "hook up" on the string, middle finger on the string first then place the other 2. Really curl your fingertips back towards you, I mean past 90 degrees. Hook all the way to the first joint, even slightly past on the middle finger. As you draw back, PUSH your drawing elbow back, anchor with middle finger in corner of mouth, anchor, keep pushing the draw elbow back and REFUSE to hold. Allow the back of the hand to relax, not the fingers. If you have tension in your back, and you will if you drew right, the string will in essance push the fingers out of the way at the same time.
The other issue is string twist. If you will stand in front of a full length mirror and draw a bow, (don't shoot the mirror, the wife will get PO!) you may see the string twisted where your fingers are, doin a weird "S". For a release to be executed properly you need to have you third finger well into the string, your elbow in line with the arrow from side view, and your string with as little twist at full draw from the critter's view (frontal/mirror).
I believe it is easier for 3fingersunder to "hook up" on the string, ergomonically if you will, in the proper position prior to the bow being drawn. I believe that 3under is no more inheirently accurate than split if both are EXECUTED properly.
If you shoot gap, I believe 3under is probably better to cut the distance from eye to back of arrow to point, lowers your point on, and does give a solid anchor. It feels weird with a longbow to me(maybe it is the lower mass bow weight, maybe it is in my head!). With a recurve, 3under is not an issue for me.
I shoot split with LB, try hooking up well curled, refuse to hold instead of releasing, push draw elbow back instead of pulling the bow back. I believe if you give this a try for a while you will notice less left, right and up and down issues with arrow flight. Do not try to hit anything for at least one to two weeks. You are reprogramming your hair covered computer. I would be willing to gues you will cheat and shoot before the week is up uop at a "target". You will probably notice improvement, but your other habit will come back quickly. Give it time, and an honest try.
Shoot at a blank bale and just pick a spot. If you try to hit a target like a bullseye and change your technique it just wont work. If you are shooting at a game animal, concentrate on a small spot only. Do not think about form/technique if you are shooting at something that will bleed. You got what form you have trained at that moment. If you can get your hands on the book "Understanding winning archery" by Al Henderson, he goes into detail about this.
Longbows & Short Shots,
Jeff Schulz
PS: Have fun with archery, always works towards perfecting your craft, and pass it on. It truly is; as Jim Ploen used to say the "Sport of Kings".
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Jason, you will have to look down at the string to load and slide up to the nocking point. When you nock over the point you simply funnel trap the arrows nock to the string and slide down to the nock which you can do without looking. It saves precisous seconds. I cant tell you how many times Ive needed second and even thrid follow ups when things are unfolding fast. You dont even think about it it practically loads itself. Try it.Or watch John Shultz show you on the video.
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cvarcher,
I don't have to look down to nock a second arrow. I do the same thing as you, only I slide mine up whereas you slide yours down. Honestly, it's a non-issue.
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Does anyone know if shooting three under causes any extra stress to the bow limbs or require the bow to be tillered to accomodate it? I have a 56" GN Ghost that shoots great but pinches with split finger. I'd like to try it shooting with three under but don't want to make it a homemade jackknife. :)
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I started 3 under this summer after 20 yrs. of split finger and found it to be much more accurate and a cleaner release. I will not switch back. Todd
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jcp161,
When I switched from split to 3 under I raised my nock point a little until I got the arrow flight I was looking for.
It hasn't effected my bows in any way I can see.
Some people mention increased noise,but that also hasn't be a problem for me.
Good luck.
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I have shot split for 20 yrs. Late this summer I thought I would give 3 under a try. Made my bow considerably louder but I shot better groups for awhile. Got to where I really wasn't any more accurate with 3 under than I had been with split. I went back to split and have stayed there. I think one is just better for certain people. You have to figure out what is best for you.
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I had a Big River bamboo that was tillered for three under. Top and bottom the same length and tiller. When I tried to shoot fast three under I lifted the arrow off the shelf. I gave the bow to my son inlaw. He likes it for three under, but since, has switched to a standard tiller and standard release.
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I guess Im going to take a swipe here right now. I know I will tick some off but we can speak our mind here. This 3 under bid is just not right. If it was wouldnt Howard Hill himself have switched to it.And that stuff of "well it works for some but not all". I just cant buy that. I figured if he was the great shot then try to do it exactly the way he does it. Think about it. Why not five fingers under then. It will bring the darn arrow right up under your eye and you can sight down it like a rifle. Sure. Works great at the range standing perfectly still plenty of time to shoot etc etc. Now take that form into the woods and get ready friend. Deer busting out on your right swing draw lead release! Or try it in a half crouch twisting backward from high uip in a tree stand.It just isnt as reliable. OK . Ive said my piece. Now all those that shoot great with it can blast me!
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This is the most polite and civil site I have found. I see that a lot of us here have tried every type of form and technique we can find. What works for us is what we will preach. We will always mimick those that have found some success with a certain style. Picking one to practice with and be consistent with goes a long way towards making us more accurate. I have spent the last 22 years trying every method and techniques I have seen: split finger, three under, two under, two finger split, mechanical release, gapping, shaft sighting, stringwalking, face walking, instinctive, eyes closed, longbows,recurves, compounds, cedar, aluminum, carbon, light shafts, heavy shafts, you name it. I've tried it or will try it. But, I found that picking the one method you are most comfortable with and practicing with a partner who watches your form, or video recording your form goes a long way towards consistency and accuracy. I prefer the feel of split finger, the heft of Alaskan Grizzlies, and the split vision. I am not a target shooter, but I am willing to try their practice habits. It has helped me figure out where my form breaks down from shot to shot, and from end to end. Some days you cannot shoot a 250 less than 200 score... then that squirrel runs across and whammo!!! Then somedays you shoot consistent 250's and miss a deer ten yards in the open. ( it didn't happen to me...never...that's my story)
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Normally I am not one to say "Do whatever feels good." I firmly believe that there are a few basic elements of form that must be mastered to be good shooter, and these elements are pretty much the same for everybody. However, with that said, I belive that split versus 3 under is not one of those constants. I personally shoot 3 under because I get a better release that way. When I use split (I still mess arouond with it once in a while) I find that my release suffers because my fingers push/torque/generally mess around with the nock end of the arrow too much. Even when I use a "can't pinch" type of tab this happens.
So anyway, try split, there is no inherent reason why it should be better or worse, but if it doesn't give you a definite noticeable improvement after a day or two, don't agonize over it and stay with your 3 under.
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split or 3 finger>?
I like split, because it puts my middle finger at the 90 degree point on the string. (I think cant pinch tabs should be standard equipment on gloves or tabs.) 3 under reduces my draw length. One world champion, a 3 under shooter tunes his arrows 1/2" above 90 degrees, maybe to get his middle finger at the correct point for proper tiller?
I am not an expert archer, but it seems to me the 'pull' finger should be on the sweet point of the string, and everything else should be built around that!?
point above or below nock>?
Jason & CV stop your both right! Yes, if you watch the JS Hitting em like howard hill video, you will see it is likely impossible for point above nock to load and shoot as fast as point below nock, IF YOU ARE USING, what did he call it? the swing style? (with the bow at the waist, it would be impossible to be faster with point above) However, some folks load the arrow at shoulder or eye level, Mongolian style, and it would be just as quick either way, maybe faster point above.
Anyway HOW CAN '3 under' nock point below? What would stop your finger from pushing the arrow up the string!? I, split finger, went to the point below to see about the quicker loading, but found found it might save me from rigging a cant pinch in my glove. My top finger touches the nock and the point keeps my finger down a bit, seperated from pinching the nock.