Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Scout 52 on March 15, 2008, 08:58:00 AM
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Hi I'm very new to trad shooting. Although I've been shooting a compound for twenty years. But I've been bitten buy the trad bug. So here is my question and findings. My groups are smaller when I draw the bow hit my anchor and release in one motion. No pausing at full draw. Now when I draw the bow hit my anchor and pause at full draw it seems to me i can't get as smooth of a release and my groups suffer. I shoot instinctive and I think the reason I shoot better is because of I hand coordiniation. I was a shortstop in college and throwing a base ball is alot like shooting instinctive. I never paused to throw the ball across the infield. I just fielded it and in one smooth motion saw my target and released the ball to first base. Not saying that drawing and pausing is a bad thing. I think it works for some people and not others.. Any comments
Ryan
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I have known just a few in my forty plus years of shooting a bow that were true snap shooters. They were good, very good. Having said that, it is the exception rather than the norm.
It would appear that you are not getting the good back tension that is a desired effect regardless of the method of shooting a bow.
I find, just my opinion, that release problems are problems that seem to go away when we do the other things we should do in the shot process.
We don't release the string, we loose the string. One is an act of trying to get rid of the string, the other is letting the bow limbs take the stirng from our fingers. It is just as simiple as relaxing the back of hand.
It will happen when we put total focus on the what we are shooting, slightly pushing on the bow, toward the target we want to it, and keeping everything lined up. That is to say, the elbow of the drawing hand, with the arrow, which should be in alingment with the spot we want to hit. If you do those things, release problems will vanish overnight.
Regarding snap shooting, I too am an instinctive shooter, who in recent months have purposely began to hold longer in the shot.
This has increased my ability to hit much, much better. I do the same thing I did before, I just do it in three seconds as opposed to the one or two seconds before.
I practice a lot, hunting gear, hunting conditions. I have killed four of five game animals that I took running shots on. I don't practice running shots alot. You will adapt to the hunting situation.
I am concerned that you may start to develope what we call, "target panic' or "freezing" which is the inabilty to come full draw. It can be best avoided by not shooting bows too heavy, and coming to full draw with good back tension, or positive pull through.
Much has been written in this forum about such things, I am sure you can find them. I hope this helped, welcome to the ranks of traditional bowhunting, and if I may be of service please drop me a line.
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I started shooting recurve bows back when I was a kid in the 1960's,hunted with recurves during the 1970's,switched to compounds in the 1980's(I sot them "bare bow" without sights) then gave up bowhunting in the late 80's because I just didn't "like" the compounds and I couldn't easily find "traditional" equipment.
FFWD - 1999
I contact Joe Skipp,the owner of Renegade Archery and a sponsor here on TradGang.I buy a used 55# Bear Kodiak Magnum and a dozen cedar arrows and I step "back in time".....It's just like the 1970's all over again!!!!! BTW,Joe and I have become very good friends over the next few years.
Several years ago,I read an artical in the TBM by Dennis Kamstra about "snap shooting". Sounds pretty good,so I go out in the back yard and give it a try.Over the next few days I become VERY good at hitting the target!!!!! WOW!!!!! This works pretty good!!!!!
UNTIL.....
A few years later,I go up to the "Tollgate Traditions" indoor 3-D tornament.There,I get to see and shoot with some REALLY GOOD shooters.(which I quickly realize I am NOT one of them LOL) I become alittle rattled (more like ALOT!!!!!) and the next thing I know I'm skipping arrows off the floor.....sticking them in the ceiling.....TARGET PANIC!!!!! The problem was two-fold,a combination of a pre-mature release(not hitting my anchor point) and dropping my bow arm.
I have been fighting Target Panic for 3-4 years now. I have to make a concious effort to consistantly hit my anchor point.Many times I try to "dig-in" to the corner of my mouth,but end up with a sloppy/"throwing" release. Sometimes,the string just "slips away" and I never reach my anchor point at all.
Snap-Shooting may work for you.For me it did not.
Good Luck!!!!! May The Great Spirit Guide Your Arrows My Friend
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I thought I was a snap-shooter but I really was a guy with some target panic. I saw a video Hitting 'em like Howard Hill where the archer is hitting aspirin tablets out of the air. He reaches anchor and releases - no hold time. I worked at it but it just fed my target panic.I need to reach anchor, get happy with my reference points and then release. I've had no success any other way.
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If you shoot better with one continuos motion good for you. the reason may be as said above that when you hold you are losing back tension, but not when you pull to the release. do what you like best, the only thing that I could warn about is that the tendency is to get increasingly fluid until you get to the point of prereleasing. Just make sure that you have a consistent release point and draw length.
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Good if you can do it, few actually can. God bless em' and more power to the guys who can make it work.
IMO, snap shooting is a road that often leads to target panic...
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What happened to WoodChucker is what happens to most people who "snapshoot". Looks like snapshooting when a pro does it but he is doing every single step of the shooting process. Most people get good for only a little while then end up with target panic like WoodChucker... and myself. So be warned: It looks cool to shoot so smooth but it is even better to hit the target.
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As mentioned above, right now you are better "snap-shooting" because you are only using your back when you shoot that way. You haven't yet learned to reach anchor and then continue to increase back tension until the sting just leaves your fingers subconsciously. You can never "hold" a bow at anchor; your fingers may stay in a spot (anchor), but you have to be pulling with your back for them to stay there. Many people try to "hold" at anchor, and don't realize that their hand actually begins to move forward at the release. Plucking the string is a given if this happens. Get a light bow and practice coming to anchor and increasing your back tension while at anchor; the shot should just "happen" of it's own free will. It's best to do this at point blank range with eyes closed, for as long as it takes to retrain the shot sequence. Eventually, it will become subconscious, and just "happen." I think you'll like the results. Good luck, Paul.
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Thanks for all the input.Actually I'm very aware of "target panic" I've been a master level coach since 2002. And honestly I knew I was kidding myself thinking I was some kind snap shooting master. I guess I just wanted to belive I could get by, But the last few days I noticed myself releaseing before I reach anchor and also dropping my bow arm and making some really bad shots.. Target panic is starting to creep in. So back to shooting close with my eyes closed working on form and follow through...
Ryan
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Fred Asbell pretty much snap shoots; and does it well. If you can do it- do it.
Personally; when I get an elk or deer or bear in front of me- I like to draw back and hold for long enough to see if their are twigs in the way; and that everything looks good to shoot.
I find when I miss; I sometimes think " I should have taken more time".
That is the problem with the traditional bow. When you miss; its not a loose nut on the site pin; or a loose this or that; or whatever makes you look at your compound bow... when you miss.
With traditional archery; if you miss - you get to realise its most likely: the fault of the nut on the string. :banghead:
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If 'shapshooting' leads to target panic, then does holding lead to creep, collapse, and loss of back tension??????
Snap shooting is not the same as target panic.
LOTS OF GREAT SHOOTERS SNAP SHOOT.... Not 'just a few'.
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Target panic is a MENTAL problem....and Snapshooting is a style of releasing. No where near the same thing.
For every good bow shooter that holds for a long time...I can show you a very good bowhunter that don't.
Consciously running through a regiment is more like a compound shooter, or a bench rifle shooter.....but that's OK if it works for you.
For other's, like me, the shot is more of an athletic manuver than a methodical process. If I'm on target, no need to stay there less the game dictates that I do.
Some people can drive a rocket to the moon, other's calculate the path.....that's what makes the world go round.
I'm more interested in your alignment....much more important.
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The old timers that coined the phrase 'snap shooting' or 'snap shooter' that I personaly know/knew, was just phrase to describe a style of shooting.....someone who shot fast without holding, or never stopped pulling. Hll and Pearson were both great shooters, and refered to in those days as snap shooters....seems Fred Bear called himself a snap shooter as well.
As of late, others have miss used that phrase and have put a negative spin on it, mostly by those that don't understand what snap shooting is as deemed by our forefathers......and referring to snap shooting as out of control shooting and leading to target panic. I just wish some the term snap shooter would quit being miss used.
Target panic is a mental issue, and causes uncontrollable releases....short drawing is also a mental issue, as the one shooting knows they are suppose to come to anchor.
Snap shooting is a style of 'releasing' or shooting, ...target panic, or out of control shooting is a condition.
If snap shooting leads to target panic, I'm a prime candidate, but I've yet to experience it.
I've also seen many that hold panic at release and have no idea where there arrow is going. ....once again, not a problem with 'holding'.... its a mental issue, one of sudden fear.
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I developed target panic by not letting go of the string- because I was trying to make perfect shots in competition.
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Yep Brian, you can have target panic as a 'holder'. I've seen folks with it real bad that are afraid to let go.
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Terry, I think we can safely assume this is a subject you feel strongly about... :D
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I never have figured out how instinctive shooters can have target panic. Seems like it could only happen if you use a specific aiming reference. Compound shooters are plagued by it, because they can't get the dot to stop moving around the spot; consequently, they never see the perfect sight picture, so they become afraid to shoot, or else "panic punch," just so the fear will go away. Without a dot or a pin, why do instinctive shooters get target panic?
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I was just out shooting my "pignuts'' bow, left and right every other arrow. If I try to hold with my right hand as long as I hold with my left, about one second. I am a better left handed shooter. If I bite in the anchor and just let the string slip between my cheek and finger tips, keeping my follow through with the fingers only coming back a little, I am better right handed. I do notice that I need more of a straight back draw left handed, I feel that robs me of the flexibility I often need when hunting. Using secondary aiming with this hickory thing I am amazed how low I need to hold at twenty yards with both hands, a bit lower left than right. I must hold my head at a different angle from left to right. When I use the secondary the bow seems to shoot it self, when I ignore it I tend to hold longer and then sometimes jerk my release. I am guessing it has something to do with confidence.
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I have couple buddies that can hit anchor in 1/2 second release and hit bumble bee in flight. Diamond , I can tell you use to shoot compounds alot, it sounds like it...trad shooting , snap , holding takes alot effort , practice , and work...But I still love the arch of a arrow...IN FLIGHT...Like T man said , find what works for you and bloody a arrow...Marco#78
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Originally posted by NDTerminator:
Terry, I think we can safely assume this is a subject you feel strongly about... :D
Uh.....Yeah ;)
I posted, and searched out a few more posts I'd made on another thread.
No worries. :campfire:
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Terry, you are absolutely right about target panic and snapshooting. Target panic creeps up on a lot of people both the holders and non-holders. I have had target panic and continue to battle it every day I shoot a bow. It started very subtle like: not all the way to my prefered anchor, a little quicker than usual draw, the brick wall at the face... that is all from the more fluid style. In holding, it is: the violent tremors before release, not letting the string go, sudden pluck and chuck. There are drawbacks and shooting diseases out there for each style that needs to be recognized. There are very good fixes for all these things in each style of shooting. Lots of threads on this issue also. While there are posts galore on this issue, sometimes it is good to get "refreshed opinions" and ideas from longtime shooters like Terry Green and Rod Jenkins and others. I am grateful for the information I have picked up and used.
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I'll repost what I had on my mind...as soon as I can get my vid link to work ! :D
Well, I cant seem to get my link working.....the term and thought of holding is IMHO, whats holding a lot of shooters from ever becoming consistant shots. I take up to 12 seconds to shoot an arrow, but my shot and what a snapshooter is doing is exactly the same..we both never stop pulling! Trying to become static (holder) is the kiss of death IMO to becoming a good shot!
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I have experienced both worlds in regards to style. I have held shots until they "feel" right and I have come to full draw, hit anchor and released in a seemingly fluid motion with good results. My focus is on my target and when I feel that I am "burning a hole through it" the shot is on it's way. I have noticed that I tend to hold a bit if it's over 20 yards though.
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Scriv,
I usually draw a bit slower on longer shots....and I also have held at full draw on game as it moved.
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Uh Oh....I just seen Rod post...you gotta watch him...he's sneaky...and done baited us up!
BTW...Rod's shot is the perfect example of holding at anchor while maintaining rearward energy. No collapse or creep...just steady rearward pressure from back tension that released on the release.
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Terry, actually I was planning to point out exactly how much my shot( couldn't get my vid link to work), along with Olympic archers, was exactly what a good snapshooter was doing...we all never HOLD, but continue the rearward movement..although at a much different rate of speed :D
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I believe this is a "walk before you run" question.
Without having the basics of form, alignment, back pressure, and follow through hard wired into the shoulder mounted computer, no one can be an accurate & consistent shot with a Trad bow no matter the method.
Unlike more deliberate methods, snap shooting requires all these elements be orchestrated and performed perfectly in a second or so.
Target Panic is a psychological condition, yes, but it's directly related to the act of shooting. You can't experience it OR beat it unless you shoot.
Seems to me that Target Panic is directly related to putting oneself under pressure to complete the shot quickly or make a perfect shot. The more relaxed you can shoot, the less likely it will happen.
The only time I experienced it was in my hardcore 3D days when I shot the Unlimited Class, where dropping just a couple points took one out of the top 3. What helped me beat it was taking a break from all 3D/competition and just shooting for fun/stumping.
So being, I think in regard to Trad snap shooting can lead to TP when the archer 1., doesn't first have his basics firmly in place, and 2., puts himself under pressure to execute that FAST SHOT....
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Excellent post Scott Williams.
Scout 52, being that you're new to trad, I would imagine that the hold at anchor method would probably be a better place to start because it allows you isolate and focus on the fundamental ellements that Scott referred to - back tension, alignment, force on the bow towards the target, concsistent draw length,etc. Once that's ingrained, you can definately speed up the shot cycle and "snap" shoot. If things start going south with the "snap" shoot, you can always go back to the basics of holding to find the specific reason. It would be intersting to find out if the greats such as Howard Hill and Fred Bear always shot the way that we see in the clips on this sight, or if they went through a process of initially holding on target and verifiying that all the ingredients of a good shot were present....
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Thanks tjjsidekick,
I may have left it out, but I beleive that I did mention the positive pull through. True enough, target panic, is a mental issue. It is brought about by phyiscal actions, or incorrect actions.
Terry, as usual you are correct about long holding, however let us not forget that it will can happend when the shot breaks down due to loss of back tension, positive pull through, or failure to push on the bow. Let's not forget shooting too heavy in draw weight.
I am not pushing my method of shooting, however it has allowed for a quick and accurate shot when the game dictates it. Let us not forget one of the tenets of Asbell, that is if you want to slow your shot, draw slower, the reverse is true also. You can still loose the arrow once you hit anchor if you are predisposed to do so.
I practice this an awful lot, due to having to shoot sometimes when many sets of eyes are watching. You may have to make a slow controlled draw under those situation. I am not prepared to let an opportunity go by without taking a good shot.
I did not wish to step on anyone's toes by suggesting that nobody can be a good snap shooter. If I were to say that, it would be totally incorrect. I am not one of those gifted people, for better or for worst, and I tip my hat to them.
When I examine good snap shooters, several things are always present. The shot is consistant, in other words they always hit whatever their anchor is, they always fully draw the bow, and they always stay with the shot, meaning they never take their concentration off the spot, and they don't drop their bow arm.
If seems interesting that those are the same traits exhibited by everyone else whos shoots a bow well.
This has been a good thread, it has addressed an issue that is responsible for a lot of missunderstanding, and frustration for the beginner as well as the veteran. Kudos to each and everyone!
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As if all of this hasn't been enough I thought of something else that I do. If I come to full draw and the shot doesn't "feel" right I let off and inch or so and then return to finish the shot. Crazy huh? Works for me though. Terry, I draw slower on long shots too. I suspect you are "aiming" before you begin your draw.
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Yes, I aim - draw - anchor - release....as I'm sure it is with most snap shooters.
Just as most who draw - anchor - aim - release tend to hold a bit.
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I love this topic because for me it's more about how the mind works than how the body works. I have been shooting about 3 years now and until 6 months ago I always released as soon as (and often before) I hit my anchor point. And I was shooting pretty good.
After posting a video of my form and receiving alot of good feedback, I decided to "retool" my form, drawing to achor and spending a second or two or three acquiring my target and then releasing. Let me tell you, things got MUCH worse than I thought possible and I was very tempted to go back to my previous style. But I stuck with it. Several months into the process, something changed.
Suddenly, the bow that I used to think was a bit heavy for me was fully under my control. I became much more aware of my anchor point, back tension and alignment. Once or twice each shooting session I was shooting 3" groups at 20 yards, which was unheard for me previously. Now I am shooting better than I ever have.
Here's what I think happened.
1. I was never really getting my back fully into the shot. Now, when I come to full draw and anchor, I can feel it. It's there and there's no mistaking it.
2. My release used to be more of a conscious "let go". And now I try to initiate the release by using the back while at full draw.
3. Drawing and holding conditioned my shooting muscles in a way that a quicker release did not.
But I think Terry said it earlier, it's all about alignment. When I have accuracy problems I look first at alignment and particularly bow arm behavior before anything else. 1 second hold or 10 second hold - doesn't matter if you are lined up poorly or your bow arm collapses at release. In fact I can have the crappiest release but if I have good alignment and a steady bow arm, the impact on accuracy is minimized.
This is only my experience and I see lots of valid points above from both perspectives.
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Very good point in regard to "retooling" form, Adirondack.
Looking back, my form/style went through four distinct phases over 2 years as it evolved to the smooth instinct-gap method that I'm very happy with.
I think any of the three other methods (actually two, as the Jenkins Gap Method I tried was very successful almost from the first arrow, I just decided it was a touch too rigid for me) would have worked, even my disasterous attempt at "Fred Bear Instinctive", had I the basics of form & the shot down properly at that time I tried them...
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Yes, I aim - draw - anchor - release....as I'm sure it is with most snap shooters.
Just as most who draw - anchor - aim - release tend to hold a bit.
Same here,Terry.I generally have a spot picked and am focused on it before I really put tension to the string.Once that happens,the shot is immenient.Kinda like putting tension to a trigger.
In any case,I liked how the author of this thread began by saying nothing that indicated he was unhappy with the quality,and yet folks were telling him what he was doing wrong.
Well,indeed your way is one way to shoot a bow.But gospel,it ain't.
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I whole hardidly agree with Terry concerning the terms Target Panic and Snap shootin are two differant things all together....
And Terry and I have had discusions regarding Snap shootin and The Swing draw method....
Howard Hill used the swing draw method, some call it Snap shootin....
To me the two are differant animals, In my opinon snap shooters do not do anything right as far as form, and Swing draw shooters do everything right they just do it fast, so people think they are snap shootin....
And of course the above is my opinon and who the heck am I....