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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: tamure on October 21, 2008, 08:52:00 AM
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I'm having a very difficult time keeping my bow arm from dropping / wandering to the left (I'm right handed) just as I hit anchor or am about to hit anchor.
This is not a new problem. Had it forever, which I think contributed to target panic I'm fighting now. BTW Kidwell's book is great. Everything looks on target, then just as I get to anchor, bow arm drifts down and left. Bring back to target, brain screams "let it go now!" If I do, the result is a high right miss and poor flight. If I don't let it go, it is a battle to keep on target and have a clean release and follow through. It is very frustrating and archery is not fun anymore, because I used to shoot fairly decent, and now I can't hit a bloody thing.
When I really concentrate on not letting it drift, I usually end up short drawing badly. It's like my body just seizes up and won't draw any more. Has anyone else ever had this problem? Any advice would be much appreciated. If I could just keep from drifting off target in the first place, that would cut like 75% of the crap out of my shot process.
:help: :help: :help:
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I am not expert, but maybe you could check your legs and body position to the target?
Second thing is that how do you draw? I mean that if you push and draw with both hands in the same time, you could try to put your bow arm straight first and then only draw to you ancor?
How about your eyes? Do you keep your both eyes open? If you don´t, try to keep them open.
Just few things came my mind.
Hope you will find the reason and fix it.
Take care
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As Trophybow1 touched on...your stance and body position can play a roll in how your bow arm performs.
The more you are in line with the target...the more your body can utilize it's joint structure to assist with body alignment and stability.
A closed stance allows the bow arm and shoulders to be pointed more in line with the target than an open stance which makes it easier on the muscles to attain and maintain alignment. With some archers...a closed stance can cause their forearm or hunting clothes to get in the way of the bowstring upon release. Just something to consider and beaware of. An armguard often takes care of that.
I would highly suggest that you try shooting at a blank bale or some other form of practice that eliminates the need to aim...which will allow your brain to fully concentrate on your form...rather than dividing it between aiming and developing good form.
I would also suggest drawing on a target, not shooting it and letting down after holding for a second or two to help you deal with your specific TP.
Ray ;)
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Thanks guys. I shoot with a pretty closed stance, my rear (right) foot actually being behind my front foot. I was experimenting in the archery shop the other day with an extremely closed stance, and it helped some, but it was awkward and increased the sleeve hitting problem in that I would sometimes hit the upper, bicep-area of my sleeve. I already wear an arm guard.
I tend to draw by pushing and pulling at the same time. I have been trying to hold the bow out and just draw with the right arm, but I have the same problem, and this seems to increase the short-draw problem since it causes my right shoulder to fatigue rather quickly (it's not used to pulling all the weight alone).
I haven't tried shooting at a blank bale. The blank bale thing has always sort of confused me, at least with regard to the bow arm drifting issue. I agree it is good for working on release and such. How can I learn to keep my bow arm solid and not drifting if I don't have an aiming point or point of reference to judge whether or how much it is moving?
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Sounds more like a mental issue than a form/stance issue to me.
Any way you can film yourself?
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Originally posted by tamure:
How can I learn to keep my bow arm solid and not drifting if I don't have an aiming point or point of reference to judge whether or how much it is moving?
It's by feel. You'll know or should know when your bow arm feels rock solid.
Blank Bale type practice is good at allowing the archer to focus on one specific aspect of their form by putting complete concentration into that one specific aspect.
It may take a 1000 shots or more at the Blank Bale before you are able to truly over come this.
It's been the number one thing that has helped improve my shooting and helped get rid of TP...for me.
Ray ;)
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Do you have a video camera? Tape yourself shooting from different angles. A lot of things may become obvious to you watching the video that to don't realize you are doing while shooting. I've done this a bit over the years.
edit: I type to slow, Terry beat me to it. :-D
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"If I don't let it go, it is a battle to keep on target and have a clean release and follow through."
When that happens to me, it's usually because I'm taking the weight with my arm muscles and not with my back muscles. It happened to me just this morning. I was shooting my 65# hunting bow, and I shoot groups of 3 arrows. After a couple of groups, I pulled back and everything was wobbling around and I had a hard time getting to full draw. I thought, I shouldn't be tired yet, what's happening? The next shot, I focused on transferring the weight to my back muscles, and everything settled down and I had no trouble getting to full draw and holding it there for a moment to get on target.
It took me a long while before I could even tell if I was using my back muscles. Even now, it's not really obvious. The easiest way for me to tell is that if it's easy for me to hold on target at full draw, then I must be using my back muscles. If things are wobbling around, then I'm either tired or I'm probably not using them. I shot for years without even being aware that I should be using my back muscles until I read some posts about it on this forum. My shooting has improved a great deal since I have started using them.
Interesting that I should have been oblivious to my back muscles, because the same thing happened to me as a rock climber. One of the best things to train for rock climbing is to do pullups. I maxed out at about 10-12 until someone clued me in about using my back muscles to do pullups. Pretty soon, I could crank off 20 if I really felt like it. Incidentally, pullups seem to be a good exercise for archery too. I had been rockclimbing and doing pullups for years when I got into archery, and I've never had any problems with the higher poundage bows, although I still swear by lower poundage bows for developing form and target shooting.
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McDave,
Great post...and I also agree with everyone that suggested recording yourself on video. A video camera can be an awesome training tool.
Ray ;)
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I believe your problem is too much bow weight. Work with a lighter weight and slowly go up.
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Back tension is most of it; relax; push/pull draw with the bowarm slightly bent at full draw - still pushing. That keeps it on line at release and while holding. And, keep the bowarm there until the arrow hits the spot.
If you can keep your drawing elbow up for the draw and hold, you are probaly not overbowed.
If you are slightly overbowed, and do not want to drop bow weight, work out on weights, pullups, pushups, rowing exercise.
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Thanks everyone for suggestions. I will have to at least give the blank bale thing a try. I'll have to pay attention and see if I can learn to feel when my arm starts drifting. Also, the suggestion about continuing to push the bow toward the target all the way through shot and follow through is a good one.
The only video camera I have access to is the crappy video function on my digicam, but I can experiment and see if I can see anything. I videoed myself a couple years ago, and that was an eye-opener for me alright. Would be interesting to see if my form looks different these days.
I'm actually shooting a very slightly lighter bow (2 lbs lighter) than I used to. I've been shooting about this draw weight for about 3 years or more now, so I'm not sure that I'm overbowed. Perhaps a little bit, since I haven't been shooting every day like I used to. I used to shoot an hour or more every day, but it hasn't been fun lately, so I haven't wanted to shoot, so I practice less... vicious circle, yada yada yada.
McDave: I tried rock climbing, and it's fun, but I couldn't find steady partners so I sort of gave it up. It definitely compliments those archery muscles, though! One time while rock climbing, someone told me that my good upper body strength was actually holding me back in learning how to use my legs and feet effectively - something that most female climbers learn very quickly, out of necessity. Because of muscles built with archery, I was just hauling myself up, instead of stepping up where practical. Anyway, I'll have to hit the hang board again, especially since I haven't been shooting as much.
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Tamure, I imagine the video clip you posted awhile back in the Member Videos section doesn't apply well now since you mentioned changing your style a bit since then, but if dropping your bow arm at release is the problem AND you still use the set-arm method shown in the video, the two may be connected. Set arm uses more of a pull than push motion (set arm, pull string) and as you mentioned does require a bit more strength to reach FULL draw. The video shows a bit of creeping when you get to anchor (your draw hand moves forward) which may be accompanied by 'peeking' at release...which may be accompanied by dropping the bow arm.
You might try tweaking your form a little to adopt more of a partial swing draw to get a more even push-pull, and a pull-through anchor which could also add some fluidity and better back tension to your draw while relieving the creeping/dropping bow arm problem.
BTW, thats quite a practice location you have there. Looks like a great place for shooting broadheads. :thumbsup:
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Could be you are pulling more weight than you are ready for... When you get to full draw, you may be struggling to maintain body position.
Two suggestions to try... take a few shots with a weaker bow to see it you can hold on target better. And, gripping too hard with your little finger at full draw will pull the bow down. you can rotate the back of your bow hand skyward so that you are mostly craddling the bow in the V between thumb and forefinger and relax the little finger. Just a couple of quick thoughts
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I had a similar question and was going to start a thread but maybe someone here can help me.
I also shoot left on occasion and I know it is a noodle arm that is the problem. I can improve it alot by just reminding my self to push forward or hold strong, but I wondered if there is a more permanent "fix".
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The best advice I can give would be to work on that particular aspect of your form on a blank bale until it's engrained into your muscle memory and subconscious so you no longer have to think about it.
Ray ;)
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My grandaddy slipped a wooden broomstick up my sleeve and into my shirt and across my back. That kept the arm nice and straight and parallel to the shoulders.
A few days practice like that and practice holding and not moving the arm and you'll stop the moving. But use a light bow and don't even bother aiming. Just get close to the target, draw and release keeping the arm still. The stick will keep you all lined up. After a week, take out the stick and do the same. After a while, go back to aiming on target and gradually increasing distance.
You'll get it.
sam
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bglass,
Make sure you just don't 'go to the bale'. You have to know how to use the bale as well. You have to know what's wrong and whats causing what.
Make sure you are just not trying to hold the bow still with muscles....as this will fall apart in the field when your mind is focused on the animals. You need to find the REASON your bow arm is moving, and correct THAT problem at the bale, and the bow arm will take care of itself.
Any way you could video yourself?
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Ahhh finally someone has address the standard advice of "going to the bale'' that has become more common...thanks Terry!
Without a method and a plan, simply blank bale shooting amouts to no more that physical excerise! I am a advocate of blank bale work, but without knowing how and what your working on,the "bale" often shows no improvment.
Tamure, Bglass...aside from alignment issues, learning how to mantain a low and relaxed bow shoulder improves a shooters bow side more than anything else.....try leaning against a wall with your bowhand for 20-30 minutes..after you begin to tire, you will begin to search for your strongest shoulder posistion...after the ordeal is over you will understand a low and relaxed bow shoulder! Now blank bale repetition to engrain your newfound bow shoulder posistion is a good thing.
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Push that bow arm { hand } toward the target it should help with bow arm control.
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same problem here too, I tried blind bale shooting and no matter how hard I tried my bow arm drops an inch or two after releasing. My question is; should your bow arm remain exactly in the same spot after releasing? thanks
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sdpeb1,
Were you just trying to hold the bow still, or did you know what was causing it and were working on correcting that?
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The first problem is target panic.You mention a few pounds lighter but what is the weight? I cannot emphasize more strongly than to start with a 35-40lb bow to learn the form correctly and to stop putting targets up to shoot at. If you close your eyes and draw you can come to anchor easily. But when you open them the eyes become the new trigger.So all these tricks dont work so well.You have to groove it right with a light bow and gradually go up in perhaps 5lbs increments. Also remember we are not steel machines but flesh and blood.So your never going to get perfect rock solid shooting all the time.Thats why compound shooters have the edge because of the added relief of the pull weight reduction and mechanical release and the sights.Those three things allow more consistant accurate shots.And even those guys miss--plenty.
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Here is another tip, spend some time working on strength. I had a guy on this site tell me to practice coming to full draw and holding for as long as you physically can! he suggested 30 seconds at a time. Can you draw your bow and hold it steady for 30 seconds without shaking uncontrollably??? Being in complete control is the key and strengh is the only way. Furthermore by associating the draw and anchor without releasing will help reduce that uncontrollable urge to fire before you are really ready. This has helped me a ton in practice. If I could just translate that to the feild I would be in good shape.
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Another tip that I am working on and my blank bail regime.
First, DO NOT HOLD the bow up!!! The bow will hold itself up with the contraction of the bow arm lateral/back muscles...lock those in first and foremost...and will be held in place by the tensions between the string drawn and the thumb pad...IF you have the muscles locked, the arm in the proper alignment, then nothing else is needed!!!! If you can't hold it rock solid, then either you haven't locked the lateral muscles properly, your alignment is out, or you are over-bowed. When locking the lateral muscles, your bow shoulder will automatically come down into the right position.
My blank bail work: I have made 3 recordings on my MP3 player, of my shot cycle, from start to finish, including breathing patterns, rest and muscle relaxations (relax everything at anchor). I go to the bail from 5 yards, with my eyes closed and follow the instructions on the player for the three shots. This gives me the full cycle, plus timing. It can be easily rerecorded if I want to speed up or slow down the cycle...but it really helps on those days when everything is flowing too fast. Then there are other days when I only work on the release and allow the recording to lead to it...you can consciously pick and choose what you want to listen too, to improve.
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I think too many shooters focus so much on the release hand they neglect the importance of the bow hand that handles much of the aiming. They shoot - then they try to remember - "hold the bow up!"
It's helpful for some shooters to have them think about the bow hand guiding the arrow to the target almost as if they have control of the arrow till it hits. So as you draw (right handed shooter) you are now thinking about a smooth draw with the right hand and the left hand remains up as you guide the arrow to the bullseye. You remain aware of both of the hands and the roles they play.
Another thing I have observed is based on the notion that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Shooters that swing up from their sides often have more difficulty with the follow through than shooters who begin with the bow arm up. It's as if the bow "comes up - then you release - and the bow wants to follow its course and go back down." If you shoot by swinging up from the side you can begin with the bow in front with a locked arm or you can do the push-pull method with the bow in front and see if there is improvement.
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I think that is why many experts talk about "Pushing" the bow hand towards the target, all the way through to the arrow strike.
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Tamure i feel your pain...a couple years ago i developed these problems and have been fighting them ever sence. It has become such a problem that i too have lost most of the joy of shooting.
I read another post last night on here about the Form Master....i never heard of it but according to the members who posted it really helps with training you to use your back muscles. I will try it and see.
CV posted exactly what my problem is...which i am not sure is what you are going through. My problem is target panic.... it is a mental thing i am really trying to overcome because darn it i love archery! Your post about..."my mind starts screaming...let go!...when i get close to full draw and i just cant make it stop.....but what is funny is that when i close my eyes and am standing close enough to a ble so i cant miss i have NO trouble at all getting to anchor, having a good smooth release and follow through.
But when i open my eyes it all goes to poop! LOL
Lance