Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: GroundHunter on October 21, 2008, 05:46:00 PM
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Worst start of hunting season I've ever had missing 8 consecutive easy shots at deer and hogs - shooting over every time. Just not picking a "spot" when it comes to game this year.
After the 8th miss, I was loosing my confidence in shooting at all. So, I picked a 1-inch mesquite limb hanging to the ground about 18 yards from my groundblind. I pulled out a blunt, picked a spot on the limb I judged to be 24 inches up from the ground ( where the killzone center is on these small Texas whitetails), and failrly casually drew and shot. Hit that branch dead-on at the 24 inch spot. I even measured the spot here the bark was knocked of - 24 inches.
Nothing wrong with my shootng - at spots. I guess I've just got "game panic" this season.
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I've had that problem also where I was deadly on the target range but would miss a whole animal well within my effective range because I didn't pick and focus on a spot.
In the cases where that has happened to me...I shot over the animal like yourself because I was shooting at the whole animal rather than a spot.
Ray ;)
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Wayne.....yep, it can be humbling to shoot over the back of a 6 year old deer at 20 yards on the ground in the wide open broadside. How can you miss an animal that big when you just shot 3 pine cones in a row out to 30 yards on the walk in.....one word. FOCUS. Ya gotta focus on that spot and go 'brain dead' on the rest of the world...and not have a 'brain fart' instead.
I feel for ya Sir, 8 in a row in one season has got to be tuff.
Get back in the saddle and go make good!!!
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I feel for you too. I've been there - back when I was shooting well, I was hammering those 3D targets, but I couldn't hit a real deer to save my life. Always shot over.
I think I've figured out my problem with the real deer, though. When I finally got within range of a real deer, I was always scared to death that I'd spook him and blow it. So I was always watching the deer's face to try to read whether or not he was aware of me, or nervous, etc., instead of picking a spot and just focusing on that.
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I feel your pain, happened to me this afternoon, see my name. Big doe <20 yards. Hit a 20OZ water bottle on the way back to the house w/ a blunt. Oh well...................Keep trying!
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Been there, wore the T-shirt out! My suggestion would be to make a mental change in your game. It's the only thing that helped me.
Consider that the next opportunity all you are going to do is draw and aim. No focus on making the shot or the kill. I would even go so far as to draw, aim and let down if possible. Burn into your mind the site picture of where you would shoot if you were actually going to shoot. Now you've changed the focus so that the goal is aiming, not making the shot. Once you feel solid about the aim then change your mind and release.
It's a little mental game, but it works.
Best of luck, give it a try and let me know if it works for you.
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Been there, as recently as this weekend....LOL. Terry and guys are correct, got to pick a spot. I have to focus on the easy ones, even harder than the tough ones.
I can attest that most of us will shoot high when we rush the shot. I took a much tougher shot, from the same blind two weeks before and connected. I did everything right except, I rushed, and did not pick a spot. When I rush, I most often fail to focus.
So, don't beat yourself up over it. I still do it from time to time, and I have a couple of dozen hogs, and twenty whitetail to my credit with archery tackle. Look at the bright side, it seems obvious that your hunting skills are pretty sharp, you did get close enough to take those shots.....I feel your pain.
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i fell ya .misseted 3 doe 1 hog twice.never had so much fun missing.i to have lots of trd. bow kills under my belt, don t be hard on your self. keep hunting an shooting
good luck
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Adrenanlin comes in to play when the shot oppertunity arises, and it sometimes can be hard to pick a spot.
Terry said it well, "Go brain dead".
You know you can hit the spot you're aimming at, so let muscle memory and you're mind take control.
Don't "over think" your shot.
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I can't add anything here, but my same experience.
This is my 3rd. year trad-hunting. first year, I missed one deer, then gave it up and went back to wheelie-bow. Last year, I missed 4 times at 3 deer---and hit a buck high/forward on the shoulder with a LOUD CRACK----tracked him witha buddy for over 3 hours----trail went out and nothing! :banghead: I did shoot a coyote on the run though---key there: I didn't think about it. I just drew back and shot---33 paces from my tree-stand and drilled it!! On deer though---I kept thinking about my misses and wounded one and couldn't bring myself to shoot! :banghead:
This year, I'm hoping to change this---I keep telling myself if I can hit a 30# 'yote, I can hit a 150# deer---as long as I don't think about the shot itself--"just do it!"
I hope this theory works----havne't had a chance to really try it yet this year--that will change starting this week
ben
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Man I thought I was the only one. I have missed 3 deer on my private land and am also on a excellent lease in Refugio, Texas where there are big racks all over the place. I am terrified at wounding a trophy there also so this thread really helps a lot. I tend to always miss high and completely lose my mind when I have an animal close to me. Seems as though all the practice I do goes out door. My buddies tell me to hang in there and keep plugging away and it will come.
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Have the same problem. Can split hairs on target range and have complete control in practice. But meltdown city when animal comes out. Biggest problem is loss of control and short draw at the very moment I try to aquire the "exact spot" I want to hit. Working on this at the practice range does no good because the effects of "pressure" cannot be duplicated. Not sure where to turn now as I have missed more deer this season that I would rather own up to!!! Any help out there??
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Clint T,
The only thing I can think of is to try and put yourself into high preasure situations by hunting small game year round, competeting in archery competitions or playing a shooting game with friends where they pick the target and you have only a few seconds to shoot it. It's a fun game while out stump shooting but you can also do it in an archery range.
Ray ;)
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Blackwolf
I compound hunted for 20+ years and got to the point where I knew without a shadow of a doubt before I pulled the trigger the animal was going home with me. Do you ever get to that point with traditional equipment??? I killed 4 deer last season with trad equip in what was my first season but every shot was like a "controlled wreck" in which to be honest, I got very lucky!! I vowed to work on my execution and control all summer and be dead on this season. Boy have I done just the opposite. Game panic seems to be even worse than last season. Acheiving full draw (index finger in corner of mouth for me) is the toughest thing to aquire when shooting at an animal. Just curious if you finally get used to this at least to the point you can function effectively???
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i bought a recurve last year and shot almost every day getting ready for my first bow season ever.
opening day i missed a 6 pointer at 12 yds. i filmed that same deer 2 weeks prior in velvet. but i got my revenge the saturday after opening day. same deer...same stand....same time of day...the 6 pointer is coming right to my stand but some barking dogs spooked him and he ran about 48 yds away and turned broadside. i decided to try my luck. luck paid off. 48 yd shot with a 65 lb recurve and the deer took 20 steps and fell. the next saturday i dropped a doe at 23 yds. since then i've missed 2 does...both under 15 yds.
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Clint T,
Changing weapons can definitely cause doubt or anxeity in your ability to effectively and accurately shoot an animal.
I definitely recommend that you get and read Jay Kidwell's book, "Instinctive Archery Insights" to help you with your issue.
Another suggestion that just came to me...would be to place yourself around deer year round with your bow in hand but don't shoot. Draw on them without an arrow and pretend you're gonna shoot. I don't know...it's definitely something you can try and it surely can't hurt. If nothing else...it gives you another reason to be out in the woods ;)
You can definitely get over this...but it may take some creative ideas for you to do this. Some people have even taken it as far as getting hypnotherapy.
Learning to focus on a spot helps destract you from thinking about the whole animal also.
The blank bale has worked wonders for my target panic.
Do whatever you can...but don't give up.
Ray ;)
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I'm unsure of your past experiences and/or training. If you get a chance to read any of the books written by Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman, do so. His DVDs would probably be too cost prohibitive for an individual to purchase. But, if you have any friends who graduated West Point in the last decade, have had any advanced combat training involving effects of hormonal or fear induced heart rate, autogenic breathing, PTSD, etc., or who are in law enforcement and have recieved advanced training from Grossman, ask if they have any material they would share with you.
I can tell you this, you can run in place and do all sorts of crazy exercises and not get your heart rate over 180. But, if you are lacking stress inocualtion through your experiences and training for arrowing a deer, you can experience "buck fever" which is a hormonal induced heart rate increase of well over 200 beats per minute steady with spikes to around 250! At 175bpm your cognitive processing deteriorates, you lose peripheral vision, you lose depth perception, and you lose complex motor skills. At this point it is impossible for you to focus. You should learn how to avoid going into this condition black which is the same as buck fever, it is not difficult with proper training.
If nothing else, try these two things:
1. Realistic Simulation in Training Transfers to Reality. This is why realistic practice on realistic targets is so important as this is a Stress Inoculator. Round Targets will not do this. I repeat, round targets are not and cannot be a Stress Inoculator for arrowing a deer. This cannot be stressed enough.
2. Learn Autogenic (Tactical) Breathing. This will help you stay in the 115 to 145bpm optimal performance range. Most of the top pro basketball teams hire Lt. Colonel Grossman to teach this to their players so they can bring the heart rate down while making free throws. It is used in combat, high risk tactical environments, sports, etc. etc.
Good Luck
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Well, good news and bad news. Slowly getting some bit of control on my game panic issue as I arrowed a big doe Saturday at 22 yards. Picked a spot and everything. However, it was a short lived success as the very next day I had a 125+ class ten point at 15 yards and I melted down with buck fever, shot under him from a brush blind. I am curious about something, when I shoot at targets in the yard I am always able to hit full draw but when I am shooting in a stressfull situation (like at a deer) I always short draw, is this common??? Can it be cured?? Its like my arm stops pulling and I can't draw back any further!?!?!
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Clint, I would say that yes it is common to short draw on game. I think that the main reason is that unlike when we shoot in the backyard, when we shoot at game we tend to be trying to pick the opportune moment to release. Our concerns are whether our movements will be picked up, what the game is doing, predicting their next move etc. We don't think about those things when we are in the yard.
I will bet that next time if you make your goal to get to full draw and pick a spot(NOT SHOOT, GET TO FULL DRAW)you will be able to get the string back. Once back just release into the shot. Focus on getting full draw and picking a spot as your major objective, don't even think about the release. Once you've succeeded making full draw and picking a spot its an easy switch to dropping the string.
Give it a try.
Best of Luck to ya.
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wish I had some good news to report, but the mental breakdowns continue on live animals!?!?! Everytime I go to shoot at a deer I get the string drawn back severals inches short of my anchor and its like it rips out of my hand totally on its own. Helpless feeling to be that "out of control" and can do nothing about it!!!! There has GOT to be some kind of technique that will aid this problem??!! I shot 10 arrows today in practice from distances 15 to 35 yards and every shot was in the kill zone!!! Anchor was solid, form was solid and release was crisp. I have tried every way to Tuesday to repeat this form in the feild and I just can't make it happen on a deer?!?!?! Not sure where to go from here?? Soon as a deer starts creeping in on me I get a week feeling inside that just totally cripples my ability with my bow!! I have no control at all, soon as I begin to draw I am immediatly fighting an uncontrolable desire to release WAY before I am on target. This never happens in practice, but never "doesn't" happen on a deer!!! Is this just something trad hunters have to deal with??!! Would welcome any thoughts on this matter!
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Clint, I have exactly the same problem. If I wasn't having so much fun getting to that point,I would have quit a long time ago. But that's not a good option.
After years of fighting and frustration, I swallowed my pride and put a single sight pin on my bow. I think it helps because it mandates coming to full draw before the aiming process begins. I reach full draw every time now. Yes, a good shot still has to be executed, but you WILL be at full draw. Did you ever short draw with your compound? Probably not. The pin would also put you back in a "comfort zone" that you were familiar with when hunting with your compound. That is, "draw, anchor, aim and THEN release".
It's certainly not a cure-all for missing, 'cause that can still occur for other reasons, but I honestly believe that the single pin will get you where you want to be...at full draw. After that, the rest is still up to you. I highly recommend it, because I know what you're going through. It's no fun.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
knobby
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Do you have opportunities to hunt small game with your trad tackle? If so, do you suffer buck fever on small game as well??
It's been many years ago for me, but my dad and Grand dad had me hunting small game with a longbow for many years before they allowed me to loose an arrow on a deer. It worked for me as I arrowed my first deer at age 12 and by that time I had arrowed countless small game animals. I found the deer far easier to hit as it was a much larger target:) I understand today that all of that small game hunting I had experienced prior to the deer worked in my favor to reduce any game panic felt. I'm using this same method on my daughter and will have her hunting small game a couple of years before I let her arrow a deer.
later,
Daddy Bear
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Just this season I have killed 2 squirrels, 2 racoons, and 1 wood duck while deer hunting. Small game does not have near the effect on me as a deer. Now sometimes I do still get the "yips" or flinch at a small game shot but never just a complete meltdown. Its the same thing everytime, as I try to draw and hit anchor and aquire the aiming spot on a deer I suddenly just let go of the string well before I have hit form. Just a loss of control. As the sight picture begins to come into place I am so in a state of anticipation that I lose control!?!? The only time I have fully achieved anchor and proper form on a deer is if it is a deer I clearly do not want to take, then I can let down.
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This might sound weird but maybe you should enjoy that adrenaline a little bit. I have found that now days I don't usually get near as shook up as I used to and now some of the excitement is gone. I do feel your pain though I have definately payed my dues. Please don't think I am being arrogant I am not a killing machine. I am just saying enjoy the ride. just a different point of view
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Clint,
I have very similar symptoms to yours.
For me, it comes and goes. I also have trouble reaching full draw on game at times. Hunting hogs here in Florida year-round has helped me some because you get a lot of shot opportunities,but I still miss an "easy shot" once in a while.
On a recent hunt, I missed a hog at 12 yards high. The next morning I shot a squirrel at 18 yards, go figure.
I just keep practicing, enjoy my hunts, and keep my shots close or not at all.
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Thanks. I have had several people tell me the same. I just wish it would subside enough where I could execute! People always say "you need to get something you can hit with"!! I am quick to tell them I can hit with my stick, I just can't shoot it under pressure!?!? Which leads to another question, I thought adrenaline makes you strong???? The first thing I notice as I go to draw (on a deer that is) is a feeling of weekness?!! Is that typical or normal. I dont understand how the adrenaline rush really works other than the end result which is NO VENISON ON MY TABLE!!! I watch the guys on TV like Byron ferguson and that other young guy named Byron (something) and they shoot animals with such ease and perfect form/control). That is what I admire about them the most is how they are in complete CONTROL of their shooting. I can do that in practice on many days but not on deer. Not yet anyway.
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I am to lazy to read all the comments on here but I would suggest a clicker. I hate problems of the mind. My dad never understood target panic when I suffered early on, he shot compound and just got it out a month before season. I think shooting to much can be a bad thing but I used to get target panic on targets. I don't want to think about it much or it might come back. I always have to tell my self when an animal aproaches my part is not done until the arrow is in the animal and their aint no do overs.
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I also feel a weekness in my arms and legs. My legs used to shake uncontrolably. I have had to put my finger on my arrow to keep it from dinking on my rest. One time I got so shook up on a couple of bucks I thought I might literaly have a stroke and I started belching. I am not kidding I got down and left so there was no chance they might come back. It scarred me.
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May sound weird but I talk myself into a state of anger at my target.As if it was a threat of some sort.When I feel that uncontrolable state of mind coming on,I start cursing and threatening the animal as if I where to get in a fight w/ it.
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If you were to see the few 155-165" deer I have missed like this, YOU would cry for me!! 12 yards over the back. . . story of my trad hunting career.
This has been my ordeal. The only thing that has worked for me (though still always in progress) is an understanding from Jay Kidwell's book called "stimulus confusion." His remedies really helped me. . .
I no longer "pick a spot." It just does not work for me. Instead, I practice all year shooting nothing but a small black dot the size of a silver dollar. (I acutally put one on everything I shoot) When I shoot at an animal- I am still shooting at nothing but a black dot. My mind rarely knows the difference. Its called the "button method." Jay uses a button and carries it around with him. I have a friend that uses a washer- it also worked for him.
This is a brain issue guys- it can't be solved by more physical practice. It is mental skills we have to learn. I have friends who are world-class athletes who have to practice similar skills. . . it is a different skill-set that must be learned and practiced.
I see few hunters/bowhunters ever address it.
Good shooting
Dan
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Couldnt agree with you more! I am just surprised that as many people that struggle with this in some shape or form and as much study as I am sure has been done, that there is not an accepted set method of cure for it that works for at least most people. Seems like everyone has some technique they have tried or are trying and having some degree of success but there does not seem to be a "rock solid" step by step procedure for a cure. If the issue was just something physical then practice and more practice would be the simple answer. I remember when I first started shooting I was horrible but week after week and month after month things came around till I couldnt be more satified with my backyard shooting now. Just about all the little "demons" have disappeared (at least for the most part)But then out steps that deer and "POOF" there goes all my ability right out the window. I really thought that the cure would be to see deer and be around deer all the time to decensative myself to them so that shooting at one is no big deal. I live in the country with lots of deer around my property so I set feeders up in my yard where I see them all the time, year round. I will watch them from inside the house and even while mowing in the summer. It is no surprise to see a deer at all for me.Doesnt really seem to help though. Hunted for 23 years with a compound till that just became "killing". Was no longer a thrill of any kind. In my opinion, todays compound bows have very few differences than an open site rifle. I guess I just got so used to the compound "doing all the work" for me that it will take some time to get used to executing on a deer with trad equipment. I would much rather deal with a physical handicap than a mental one.I have a friend of mine who met a bowyer in Ozona Tx. Though he is good at hunting animals with a bow now, he said he missed the first 55 deer he shot at before he brought one home. Said he would "panick" everytime. When I first heard that story I laughed and thought no-way!!! Well, I aint at 55 but I can assure you I AINT LAUGHING no more either! Hard for me to imagine watching video of accomplished trad hunters make a steady draw, anchor and a good release (when they want to release) on a deer and seem to be so calm. Like an incredible GIFT. When a deer comes in on me and gives me a good close shot I feel inside like I am about as capable of making that shot as I would be juggling dominoes while falling out of a plane!! Body gets week, mind goes haywire!!! Hopefully with time some of this will subside. I love shooting the bow to much to quit!
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My name is Paul and I have the same problem. man,
I feel like I am at an A.A. meeting. I have killed quite a few animals over the years, but for some reason this year I have hit the same wall
that you are describing. I will readily admit that I still get excited when I know that I am
about to shoot!! my problem is that I worry about
the animal seeing me draw and I release prematurily. Never had this problem until this year, and have missed more animals than I care to
admit.
Paul J.
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i its interesting i have this problem every now and then! depends on the animal depends on the situation. what i found was i was shooting to much just for the sake of shooting, releasing when i was close instead of "on" target. found i was doing it on small game also just to excited to get the shot away. my brain was trying to make things happen to quickly and i went from draw-anchor-aim-release on targets to draw-release on game if i was not focusing enough.
i decided to put a clicker on my bow that made a big difference, you can tell when you cheat a full draw as it wont click. it ads a sequence to the shot that your brain can not mistake "the click at full draw"
so if you have a problem getting to full draw a clicker is worth trying out.
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Well, I do want to say thanks to all of you for your comments/suggestions. It was a rough season dealing with this game panic. I did arrow me an average 8pt on dec 30th. Made a perfect double lung hit at 15 yds. My form was not perfect as again I did not settle into anchor, everything was kind of "rushed" as always. Something I have yet to get control of. That gives me a doe and a buck for the season which would not sound so bad if it werent for all the melt downs in the mix. Some how some way I have got to learn to make every practice session just like a real hunting situation with the same amount of pressure. We all know that, that, is not possible though. Just curious about something though for any of you veterans out there. When you actually shoot at a deer does anyone actually get to perfect form, know your at perfect form, and release totally when you want to under absolute control??? It all just seems to happen on its on for me without any kind of actual thought process going on. This is what seems to be killing me the most.
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Thanks for posting Clint. I was thinking I was the only one that was having problems. I have missed 3 nice bucks this season. I missed the same one twice. I know its a lack of focus but I also feel rushed. I have until this weekend to redeem myself. Thanks again.
Gilbert
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you show me a guy that says they have never had this issue ill show you a liar. this is the reason we got into trad hunting, I dont get jitters with the gun anymore but i hope they dont go away with the bow, when you can have that much adrenaline and not even having shot a arow, thats what its all about.
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Everyone suffered through this one time or another. Its all concentration and focus. We call it the "Zombie" effect.
Once you determine your going to get the shot off, you totally focus on the spot you want to hit and become oblivious to your surroundings. Just like in the movie, Night of the Living Dead..people walking around staring straight ahead, eyes wide open...
Same principle applied to the vitals on the animal you want to kill.