Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Flashman on November 11, 2008, 12:54:00 PM
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G Fred discusses a different kind of shooting stance in the new Traditional Bowhunter of basically facing the target, bending the knees, bending and twisting the hips to shoot. I went back to his old book on shooting (vol II) and it appears he was rather silent on shooting stance (from my quick review) other than to bend at the knees. I practiced for past several days and think I like it. My normal stance was facing at 45 degrees so this wasn't as big of change for me. It forces you to really use your back to get a full draw. I haven't decided whether it is for me but so far I am positively inclined.
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If it improves your accuracy for the specific circumstances you will be placed in...go for it.
It doesn't have to be 'text book' perfect. It just needs to be consistant and comfortable. That's one of the things that's great about this sport...there can be so many variations in how we do it.
That stance just doesn't quite work for me. I prefer to be in a stance that makes it easier to achieve and maintain consistant arm and shoulder alignment and it just feels uncomforatble to me.
Ray ;)
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I also gave his stance a try. Results where very good. More back muscle used to draw, more consistent arrow placement and felt more natural. I wear glasses and this stance gives me a better view, not looking sideways through tri-focals.
After reading his books a few years ago I tried to "swing" my bow up and draw at the same time as he discribed it; but it didn't feel good. With this stance it is a very natural movement both in a tree stand or on the ground. I will stay with this stance.
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I do believe that Fred's thinking has evolved over time on this point. When I attended the instinctive shooting clinic at BW several years ago, pivoting the body to bring the shoulders into allignment was not a part of the course. Now he says it is practiced during the course.
I learned pivoting the body from our own Terry Green, in his posts and video. It has made me a much better shooter to have my shoulders in the same allignment for each shot, regardless of where my feet are, and a better hunter to not have to worry about moving my feet around to get them into any particular allignment.
Fred favors keeping the shoulders slightly open, whereas Terry favors having the shoulders square to the target. I have always struggled with getting my shoulders completely square with the target. Since reading the TBM article, I have been experimenting with leaving my shoulders a little open. My feeling is that if the position of your shoulders is repeatable, you should be just as accurate one way as the other. I feel a little more relaxed with my shoulders slightly open, and as Fred says, it does seem easier to get my back muscles engaged. I believe my shoulder position is repeatable, since I bring my shoulders into as square a position as I can without any undue stress; when the undue stress starts is where I stop. But I haven't tried this long enough to be sure of anything yet.
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Originally posted by McDave:
Fred favors keeping the shoulders slightly open, whereas Terry favors having the shoulders square to the target.
McDave do you mean perpindicular to the target?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by square.
Ray ;)
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Probably a better way to put it is that Terry favors keeping the shoulders parallel with the arrow. I was going to try to explain what I meant by "square," but I was never a whiz at geometry, so rather than dig myself in deeper, I'll just leave it at that.
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Originally posted by McDave:
Probably a better way to put it is that Terry favors keeping the shoulders parallel with the arrow.
OK...now I understand ya ;) That's how I prefer my shoulders also...parallel to the arrow ;)
Ray ;)
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Regardless what stance you take your alignment should be with the arrow shaft. From your bow hand back through the arrow to your draw hand elbow.This automatically will put your shoulders in the correct relationship to the arrow.
The major shooting form flaw a lot of shooters have is they do not get their draw arm elbow back in line with the arrow. If this is not done it could cause right or left arrows. By having the elbow in line with the shaft you can get off the string cleanly with out flicking it.
No top shooters look like they are shooting under a branch when they shoot unless they are in fact shooting under a branch.
Art
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Originally posted by artvin:
No top shooters look like they are shooting under a branch when they shoot unless they are in fact shooting under a branch.
Art
That depends on what kind of target and situation they are in.
I've personally seen and witnessed plenty of top shooters that look like they are shooting under a branch as they hit aerial target after aerial target.
But if you're talking about top archers in typical target archery competitions such as the Olympics or Field Courses...than I agree with ya ;)
Ray ;)
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Originally posted by artvin:
No top shooters look like they are shooting under a branch when they shoot unless they are in fact shooting under a branch.
Art
I dissagree as well, and they don't have to be shooting arials. I know a lot of top bowhunters that do, and they don't do competition....but they sure kill a lot of game. Bowhunting is not target archery.
You don't HAVE to stand up straight, and you don't HAVE to lean over....but it sure is nice to be able to do both as it will open up a lot more opportunities at game being a more vesitile bowhunter with more than one shot in his bag.
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Also, if your shoulders are not perpendicular to the target, you will be relying on more muscle than bone structure to hold the bow on target. The more you muscle the bow, the more torque you will have to fight.
This may or may not be a problem in the back yard, or perfect shot opportunities. But if you have to create and manufacture a shot in the field stressing and taxing the muscles in those positions will cause inaccuracies as it will be harder to fight the torque.
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I have to agree with Terry when it comes to having the versatility to bend over and shoot under a branch if a hunting situation calls for it. But I totally support Art's point that the best, most accurate shooters I know will always stand up straight and align their shoulders with the arrow whenever targets or game animals permit.
I would never claim to be an excellent shot but I certainly shoot better when I assume a "proper" target stance. If my hunting circumstance allows me to take such a stance - that's what I'll do. If I have to bend way over and shoot under a branch I'll do that if that's required. In fact, all of my shooting/hunting buddies and I regularly practice some pretty off-the-wall shots at 3D targets just to develop those weird aiming skills.
If it helps someone shoot better to bend over and hunker down before drawing their bow then more power to them. Standing up straight and aligning my shoulders with the arrow shaft works best for me whenever conditions permit. I will only bend over and hunker down if I'm having to shoot under a branch.
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John, you can have, and should have, your shoulders aligned with the arrow whether you stand straight up or bend at the waist as proper alignment is from the waist up. You can take your shoulder alignment with you by not only bending forward, but backwards as well and by rotating right and left. That's the beauty of proper alignment, and the gift to the bowhunter.
If anyone wants more info on proper alignment, all you have to do is do a search on this forum for the word 'alignment' and you'll get about 7 pages worth of info.
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I started shooting this way about a year ago(both toes pointing towards the target,feet side by side)as I swing/draw,I bend the knees and rotate at the waist,so at anchor my shoulders are pointing at the target - it was at this time I finally got the hang of pulling with my back muscles,and upon release my hand slides back across my face and ends up on my shoulder.Not sure what it was about the rotation at the waist, but it improved my accuracy , not to mention making shots out of stands.
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Originally posted by artvin:
Regardless what stance you take your alignment should be with the arrow shaft.
No top shooters look like they are shooting under a branch when they shoot unless they are in fact shooting under a branch.
Art
Spot on Art, everybody is built different so no one method will work for everybody but as long as basic priciple of arrow alignment is followed then you have no problems.
I've shot a quite a few world\\European Field\\3D tourneys and only ever met one top Archer with strange stance, he's Austrian and stands with his back to the target and twists round to shoot, when I asked why he said he had a previous broken arm and it's the only way he can get clearence to shoot, he shoots pretty nice scores.
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Originally posted by McDave:
I do believe that Fred's thinking has evolved over time on this point. When I attended the instinctive shooting clinic at BW several years ago, pivoting the body to bring the shoulders into allignment was not a part of the course. Now he says it is practiced during the course.
I learned pivoting the body from our own Terry Green, in his posts and video. It has made me a much better shooter to have my shoulders in the same allignment for each shot, regardless of where my feet are, and a better hunter to not have to worry about moving my feet around to get them into any particular allignment.
Fred favors keeping the shoulders slightly open, whereas Terry favors having the shoulders square to the target. I have always struggled with getting my shoulders completely square with the target. Since reading the TBM article, I have been experimenting with leaving my shoulders a little open. My feeling is that if the position of your shoulders is repeatable, you should be just as accurate one way as the other. I feel a little more relaxed with my shoulders slightly open, and as Fred says, it does seem easier to get my back muscles engaged. I believe my shoulder position is repeatable, since I bring my shoulders into as square a position as I can without any undue stress; when the undue stress starts is where I stop. But I haven't tried this long enough to be sure of anything yet.
I've read the article and find it has merit and value. It mirrors many accepted practices of training to shoot in tactical situations and is worthy of use in archery hunting.
I do not take this as a method that favors poor shoulder alignment. In fact, the purpose of the proper rotation is to favor proper shoulder alignment. As to target archery, this technique was used by the great Richard Mckinney to shoot and win many world titles. Anyone who saw him shoot would note that he obtained correct shoulder alignment through rotation without bending of the knees. Bending of the knees make it even easier to obtain.
This technique is all about proper stance and proper movement techniques while facing a threat, and in this case properly facing the direction a game animal may show up, and then being able to naturally flow into proper shoulder alignment with minimum movement through rotation. I find this most helpful when I'm hunting small game afoot and it is well worthy of including in your skill set. This technique and the rotation can also be applied while shooting from a stool, tree seat, or stand.
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That's the beauty of proper alignment, you can rotate or bend at the waist and still have good form for a shot. If you have poper alignment standing straight up, and then bend at the waist you haven't lost your form.
Good form is not limited to one statuesque position. Thankfully for the bowhunter.
There's some info on The Bowhunters of Trad Gang DVD on this as well.
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I realize that Fred is suggesting this stance for hunting situations, but try shooting at a target 180 degrees from the way your standing. I don't want to move my feet to make the shot.
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180 degrees from the way you're standing is behind you, Fred's suggested stance makes this easy without moving your feet. Check out the last shot in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeJJTTtse1w
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I always stand with my left foor in front of my right. Which way my toes point or how wide my stance is makes no difference. I find this helps encourage proper shoulder alignment.
Fred also suggests that his forward facing stance would cut down on the deer seeing you move. The way I feel, is that if a deer sees you move a leg forward then he's with out a doubt gonna bust you on the draw, which will take a lot more movement. I will chose the stance that encourages good shoulder alignment which means the left foot will always, in some way or another, be in front of the right. I can think of no hunting situation where this could not be achieved.
All in all though, I believe it boils down to what your comfortable with.
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I have been practicing this technique for about six weeks, from 12 to 24 arrows a day, and I think I have it down. Accuracy is much improved. Interestingly, accuracy improves as I continue to shoot in a session as opposed to the past when my first shots were the most accurate. It probably has little to do with the technique but perhaps it does help with concentration.
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I attended one of Fred's classes a few years ago. According to his stance and form, I do everyting WRONG. I shoot mostly in the traditional stance ( upright and straight bow). I seem to do pretty good at all the 3D shoots and also at hunting. Have been shooting like this for 35 yrs. now. I had to laugh a while back watching a couple guys trying out Fred's stance and canted bow. They must have spent at least a minute getting their feet set just right, bending over and leaning forward then canting the bow just right. They really looked like they were in pain. Each to his own, but the animal would have been a mile away before they got a shot off.
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You can apply the same logic in reverse:
(I watched someone try 'a new technique' and it took them at least a minute to get their position correct.) This would apply to everything, not just Fred's stance.
(A hunter who was working his way through some brush and low branches finds himself with a clear shot on the game animal he seeks, but he never learned to shoot his bow from any position other than standing straight up in a fixed target stance with his feet just so. He needs to adjust his position so he can stand erect and square himself to the animal.) Each to his own, but the animal would have been a mile away before he got a shot off:)
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Yep Daddy Bear....correct.
I'm not sure why Fred squats as he draws, but I've shot many an animal while squatting, kneeling, rotated every which away and canting in various angles.
I've always said that proper alignment and form is from the waist up, and you can take that with you once you learn to many shots that are offered in the field. It's best to learn to control your bow and not let the bow control you if you want to capitalize on the shots offered in the field.
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i am a new shooter. bought my first recurve last year and became addicted. i shoot in lost tribe club of tn and i started copying the form/posture of some of the better shooters. all that did was mess me up. just before bow season started; i started bending from the waist and canting my bow. i started shooting lights out. i practice shots between 20 and 33 yards.
i know i'm not the best target man; but I have shot:
6 point at 48 yds (lucky shot....didn't realize it was that far but she only took 20 steps)
5 point at 18 yds
a doe at 23 yds
and a squirrel at 12 yds
i shoot instinctively but i do pay attention to tip of my arrow
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I agree with Terry, proper alignment comes from the waist up doesn't really matter where your feet are at or which direction your toes are pointing.
I hadn't really paid much attention to either, until I read Fred's article in the Dec/Jan issue of TBM. I've alway's been a rover, even with my compound bows. I try to practice shots from my knee's, squatting, standing, behind me, or whatever scenario I can come up with that might mimic a real life opportunity at game.
After reading Fred's article and having a buddy watch me shoot several shot's from varying position's, I do bend, twist, or whatever it takes to get my shoulder's aligned with my target.
Short point long story, the position of your feet is not nearly as important as the position of your upper body.
Daren
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This Year, I scared a deer off when I tried to move my feet while in the tree stand. The deer did not see me but heard the tree stand make a metallic noise. If I kept my feet still and twisted at the body (as I have practiced) I may have gotten a shot. Of course, if I had done some maintenance on the stand before the season, I may have also gotten a shot.
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I fully agree that for hunting one needs to practice odd body positions for hunting. Being right handed I practice shooting with my right foot forward as when I'm stalking it is the one in front 50% of the time. Reverse canting can also be very beneficial. As has been mentioned above keeping the proper alignment is what is key to the shot.
In the same article he mentioned that shorter arrows are inherently more stable then long arrows. Can anyone explain why this is to me? My experience/intuition says otherwise so please educate me on this. It seems that cultures with the more primitive (simpler) bows use longer arrows for accuracy.
et
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Primitive arrows typically have small, light points, or in some cases no points. You would need a longer arrow to get the same spine than you would if you had a heavier, modern point, in order to get good arrow flight and therefore good accuracy.
Assuming you have two arrows of different lengths that are both equally straight and well tuned for a bow, I wouldn't imagine there would be much difference in stability between the long arrow and the short arrow. I won't say there is NO difference, as I'm sure someone else knows of a reason why there would be some difference.
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I agree with Terry that upper body position is the most important part of your form. I have always been told that if you shoot from a tree stand ,you most shoot a little high if you want to hit your target.If you bend at the waist so everything is in alignment you can hold dead on.Upper body alignment is critical.saddlesmith
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:campfire:
I've tried the stance and I like it. I practiced with it until I got comfortable in the stance. If the stance works for you and your comfortable with it, then use it by all means. I'm a spot and stalk hunter and my confidence is a notch higher knowing I don't have to stand sideways to draw my bow and make the shot. IMHO!!!!!!!! :archer: