Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Dartwick on February 25, 2009, 09:43:00 AM
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I see much consistent talk about the issue of "target panic" - the uncontrollable COMPULSION to release the arrow before full draw/anchoring.(Im separating this from snap shooting where you CONSCIOUSLY decide to release as fast you can even though they are likely related.)
It doesnt make sense that this is a wide spread issue among trad shooters unless we are systematically doing something very wrong. We are normal people for the most part. Uncontrollable compulsions are not normal - they have to be systematically built.
This is as silly as if many driving enthusiasts had an issue where they could use nothing but 100% accelerator at all times. Or if some basketball players always shot the ball 5 feet short of the rim because they couldnt wait to let go of it.
Im not diminishing the issue for any one who has it. What Im saying is its not easy to learn a negative compulsion this strong. Perhaps bare bow shooters as a community need to seriously re-examine the details of the advice giving to new archers and think about what is leading to this.
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Im not sure why this was moved here. The post isnt about how to shoot - its about the more general concept of are we doing something wrong in how we introduced and inform new archers.
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Darwick,
This is where it belongs. It is a shooting issue and this is the shooters forum. All target panic threads are here. :wavey:
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I'm not sure it is as widespread as you think it is. I can understand why you might think it is widespread, since we read a lot from the people who have that problem. But of course, what you don't read are a lot of letters from archers writing in to state that they don't have target panic, because people don't write about problems they don't have.
Jay Kidwell, a psychologist, wrote as informed a piece on this as anything I have read in his book, Instinctive Archery Insights. He states that target panic is not a common affliction.
I think one of the challenges of archery is that it is an activity we start from a dead standstill, unlike basketball and driving, where we remain in motion. Other activities where this happens, like golf, also seem to have a range of peculiar maladies that don't seem to affect the general public, but keep teaching pros and writers occupied searching for cures.
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That could be, maybe it just gets undo press.
Its quit reasonable to think that anyone could get into bad habits from snap shooting. Its hard for me to believe though uncontrollable target panic is a significant issue to the community - unless wide systemic problem with how people are learning beyond simple bad habits.
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I've seen people with a static hold style have target panic so its not just 'snap shooters'. It may be a different kind of panic....but its panic for sure.
I don't understand this panic, as I've never had it.....so I don't read about it much either as I don't want no monsters in my head. :eek:
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Me and 2 of my friends had/have it.
WE fixed it early though, knowing that it existed and some methods of fixing it.
So, 3 out of 3 traditional shooters in my bunch all suffered with varying degrees.
Ours were all stopping being able to draw about 2 inches from anchor and just holding the arrow, unable to move back ahhaa.
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Well theres a big difference between a bad habit/tendency - something you tend do do if you dont concentrate on not doing it, and an uncontrollable compulsion - an action that your conscious mind can not over-ride.
I keep reading story's where if the writers are to believed they have a utterly unable to draw a bow to anchor. This is a fairly simple physical action if you cant do it at all thats not normal.
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As a long-term sufferer of the stuff, I would say that it’s far easier to learn this negative compulsion (as you put it) than it is to rid yourself of it. I would also disagree with how widespread some of you think this problem is. I’ve been doing this barebow/hunting/3D shooting for a long time. I don’t have figures to backup my opinion. I base it simply on anecdotal observation. I believe many more suffer from the stuff than don’t. I’ve stood at many practice ranges at many large “trad” events and watched thousands of shooters. I honestly believe that at least 80% of those I see have PANIC in one form or another.
One thing I’m very sure of however, is that if you write the book on how to avoid it, your working days are over. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :^)
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Jay Kidwell, a psychologist, wrote as informed a piece on this as anything I have read in his book, Instinctive Archery Insights. He states that target panic is not a common affliction.
McDave, I've changed my mind about this - sort of. I've helped around a hundred people on TradGang with their target panic. Taking into consideration the number of TradGang members on here it would seem that tp only infects a small group.
On the other hand . . .
I honestly believe that at least 80% of those I see have PANIC in one form or another.
I also tend to agree with Jim as I have come to believe that the majority of shooters do have tp to some degree. I've always said that I do not have, and never have had target panic. What I have found, however, is that when I do the intervention drills for target panic (even though I don't have it) my shooting improves. I have also had many coaches tell me that they require that their shooters all do the drills to keep target panic from developing and that they have seen immediate improvement with all the shooters, even the ones who were not obviously suffering from target panic.
My thoughts now tend toward the notion that anyone who shoots on a consistent basis will likely be experiencing the symptoms of target panic on a continuum from mild to extreme. We know when we get to the extreme end of the continuum with a severely premature hold or release. Other people even notice it. On the mild end, however, - the only evidence is the feeling that we are "a little off today." I've discovered that on those "off" days the intervention drills for tp can almost immediately make it an "on" day!
Finally,
One thing I’m very sure of however, is that if you write the book on how to avoid it, your working days are over. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :^)
You were right one time already Jim. I think your pressing your luck. :^) The truth is that people don't worry about tp till it destroys their shooting. It's perfectly understandable. I do hope that as we come to understand it better more people will make the interventions part of their daily practice routine. I believe if they would do that their accuracy would increase and target panic would be part of history.
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McDave, I've changed my mind about this - sort of. I've helped around a hundred people on TradGang with their target panic. Taking into consideration the number of TradGang members on here it would seem that tp only infects a small group.
Dr. Kidwell,
Unfortunately, from my observations, it appears that most of the sufferers of this plague won’t admit, or perhaps don’t even realize that they have a problem. It doesn’t take much accuracy to kill a deer at 17.3 yards and a lot of “trad” hunters are content with their shooting ability at short distances. It’s difficult to convince a fellow that he’s got a serious shooting flaw when he fills the freezer each year with little trouble.
A couple years back, I had a long discussion about target panic with one of the icons of instinctive archery. This fellow has written books, articles and give seminars on shooting. He openly admitted to me that he has target panic so bad, that it is impossible for him to come to a solid anchor. I think I’ll hold fast to my 80% guess—for a while longer. :^)
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Jim,
I agree with your 80% guess and think it may be more. And you are correct when you say that people can shoot with target panic and be content with the results. There are many shooters on the extreme end of the continuum that probably won't seek help.
What I don't agree with is "if you write a book on how to avoid it, your working days are over. $$$$$" I'm pretty sure I wrote that book and now I'm off to work! Good thing I like my job.
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What I don't agree with is "if you write a book on how to avoid it, your working days are over. $$$$$" I'm pretty sure I wrote that book and now I'm off to work! Good thing I like my job.
Well... I sure can't dispute your experience with that, can I? :D I just hope someone will read one of these TP posts and see that they need, and can find some help. My archery has been much more enjoyable since I got complete control of my shot/form.
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Jim got to agree with you. Most trad shooters....you know the "I shoot a group the size of a garbage can lid I am ready to go hunting" crowd don't realize they have anything wrong with their shooting. Most of them their shooting form is so unrepeatable that they are clueless to the fact their shooting is horrible. I mean when you don't shoot shots that are close together to start with how do you know that you threw one out or why you did?
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I have fought it from time to time. Taking lessons with Rick Welch helped me get it under control. I WISH I could shoot the same way Terry does. His form is unreal, and he is accurate as hell. But for me, I shoot better when I come to draw and "hold" allowing my sight picture to settle in. Then I pull through the release and it works pretty well.
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It's not just a compulsion to release the arrow; it can manifest itself as the inability to release, the inability to aim at the target, or the inability to reach anchor, among other things. I honestly don't understand how instinctive shooters get target panic, because it is usually related to aiming with a device or system of some kind, wherein the "sight" won't stay still, which makes people think the shot won't hit the target, or the release won't happen when the sight is on target, and just as the release happens, the sight moves. Since instinctive shooters have no concrete sighting reference, there is nothing to really instill panic. Snap shooting and panic aren't the same and often are not even related to one another; I would blame too much bow weight for snap shooting more than panic. The root cause of panic is fear of the result (i.e., a miss), which can cause one to snap shots off the moment the sight hits the target or can cause one to be unable to shoot at all, both because the mind dreads the outcome. Paul.
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The premature hold, or inability to aim at the target, using your terms Paul, is experienced most often by shooters who use some system of gap shooting. So you are correct in that there is an association with an aiming device or system of aiming. In a poll on Trad Gang there was about a 50/50 split for instinctive/hybrid gap. There are many ways to shoot a barebow and those who use a hybrid or gap system will most often experience a premature hold where they tend to "lock up" just off target.
On the other hand, shooters who shoot more instinctively will experience target panic as a premature release. They will find that they can't get to full anchor before the fingers uncontrollably release the string. Some might call it snap shooting and others snap shoot by choice. I think we would really have to concretely define all terms.
You said the root cause of panic is fear and I'd likely agree with that. Fear is not a component to target panic though so we are really using bad terminology in the name itself. Historically, the scapegoat for target panic has been a "fear of failure" and that faulty connection has hurt more than helped. It is actually learned associations and the interventions are usually almost immediately effective.
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I sure have had a battle with it.but I do agree that alot of people I see shoot have problems with it. the part that is so hard for me is how long it takes to get rid of it. reminds me of when I quit chewing I had to try I dont even know how many times before I got it.
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Jay,
Could I get a copy of your intervention drills? I was practicing yesterday afternoon and felt something amiss:
I normaly will hold on-target for a couple of seconds before releasing, for some reason, the last three arrows I shot, I just barely touched anchor and released.
Jeeez, I hope this isn't TP.
Thanks,
Todd
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I developed my target panic problem over a 15 year period. I began by instictiveley shooting as soon as my finger touched the corner of my mouth. I was using the swing draw method. I even practiced this way with my eyes closed and could get off some pretty fast shots. Over time, it got to were as soon as my brain decided that I was on target, I would release the arrow. By the end of the fifteen years, it was not uncommon when shooting at a deer for me to release the arrow when the string was a full 4 inches away from my face. This caused me to wound a couple of deer in a row causing quite a bit of mental anguish. I even bought a compound thinking I would have to go back to the wheels and release. Luckily, about that time, Dr. Kidwell was giving out advice on how to beat it on this site. I already had his book, but it was an older one without the panic chapter. I started practicing with his method and continue to do the drills every day. I also dropped my bow weight by 15 lbs, got Ricky welchs tape and modified my shooting. New anchor point(double), a set shooting routine that I follow 1,2,3. I also took bits and pieces from masters of the bare bow 1,and 2 and incorperated into my form. Last but not least, I finally paid close attention to Terrys shooting clock. All of these things made it possible for me to kill three deer in a row this season. I square up my body and shoulders in the shooting clock,draw on the deer, lock in my 2 anchor points, then I admire my site picture (pick a spot)and boom, the bow goes off. I don't ever think I will be able to go back to snap shooting, it just doesn't work for me. I do hope that after a few years i can go back up in bow weight, but for now, I am going to stick with my programs until they are totally ingrained with the lower poundage bows. Thanks to all of you for the information and insight you have provided. It has kept me doing what I love to do, and that is to hunt with a recurve.
Sincerely: Chris Rice
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Todd,
I emailed the drills to you.
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Chris,
I really like the double anchor. I too shoot much better when I make sure both points are locked in. I also like the shooting clock, though I don't personally shoot that way, and think it probably demonstrates perfect form. I personally stand with both feet facing the target like I'd be in a small tree stand. I think Asbell wrote an article about that recently in TBM. It has always been most comfortable for me and conducive to my hunting style. I'm not familiar with the Welch style but I've seen the DVD's that are available. I'll have to check them out.
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I figured since I too suffer from this I would share my experience. When I first got in to trad 3 years ago I never knew such a thing existed. Then I started to snap shoot thinking that since I shot trad snap shooting was the thing to do. Well, it worked for a while then I just started shooting faster and faster. I also suffer from Anxiety so once I started making bad shots the Anxiety would set it then it had me. I tried to shoot through it but anyone who had/has it knows its not really possible.
Not to mention I use to read threads about it on forums and I think that also helped put it in my head I wish I would have never read about it I really think it made it worse. I believe Terry is making smart move by not reading about it and putting monsters in his head like he said. Fortunately with a clicker and Jay Kidwells book I have it pretty well under control now to where I can make controlled accurate shots. I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel but I don't think I will ever be totally rid of it. I think I will always be working on something but I know I can control it enough to where im comfortable shooting at game animals.
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I still dont buy that any but a tiny minority of people could be unable to come to anchor if they concentrate on it.
It just doesnt make sense. Its one thing to have an urge to release to soon, its quite another to be unable to control your body.
Im not saying that urge isnt a problem and it would require effort to overcome it. But to be actually thinking about pulling back the bow and but unable to make your body respond is a more extreme issue.
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I still dont buy that any but a tiny minority of people could be unable to come to anchor if they concentrate on it.
I sincerely hope you never find out.
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I know many feel that the less they know about target panic the less chance they have of developing a case of target panic. At an intuitive level this does make sense. The actual research tells us the opposite. A healthy understanding of these types of psychological problems actually diminishes the chance that one will ever suffer from the problem. There are numerous psychological problems that have decreased in direct relationship to the increase in the general populations knowledge of the problem. For example, hysteria, glove anesthesia and the vapors have all decreased in direct proportion to educating the public at the college level to their existence. They have gone from common psychological disorders to fairly rare disorders. Even panic attacks, which still have a fairly high level of occurrence, are much less severe among those who have been educated to their cause and symptoms. I do not believe that learning about target panic will increase the likelihood that one will develop a case of target panic. I firmly believe that the more you know about it the less likely it is you will develop a case, and if you do, it will be much less intense. Of course, the perfect scenario would be to both educate and prevent with the intervention drills.
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Jay
You mention drills in your post to Todd. Do you mean the 3 stages in your last chapter or did I miss them in your book somewhere else. Thanks.
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Vince,
The stages include the drills. I think I have added a couple based on recent experiences. I PM'd the info to you that I sent to Todd.
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Thanks, sent ya a return pm.
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I'm not going to try to define the terms but I'll give my 2 cents and hope it helps:
I got over my pre-mature release and gave others the same advice to help them and it worked. Basically, its what Dartwick is saying about just concentrating. The first step is knowing and admitting that you have bad form and then you can take steps to correct it....at least the issue that I had.
While working through it I realized why I was doing it. I think it has to do with my subconscious knowing, or believing, what is best for my form in order to accurately hit the target. When I came to full draw my mind had a harder time controlling all of the variables that were going to throw the arrow off target. I consciously focused on the different elements of my form but my shots were inconsistent anyway and my mind could not get a hold of the problem and became confused and the whole process snowballed into a psychological turmoil.
So the subconscious fix is to not put myself into the state of high stress that occurs at full draw, where tension is maxed. Instead, at some point during the draw, or even when fully drawn, my subconsious would get an instantaneous spike when all elements of the form felt just right and would release the arrow.
It haunted me on and off for years and when I figured this all out I went to the range alone and vowed to get over it that day. And I did. But I had to, in a sense, start all over, and rule #1 became, "shooting a trad bow is all about coming to full draw, that is the focus, and not coming to full draw is not an option."
I had to get angry about it and I had to just concentrate on every shot and make sure I had the draw for a second or two and then release.
I didn't care about arrow flight or where I hit on the target. Success became a fully draw shot. I did that until it became second nature and then I moved on to the next element.
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I've read Kidwell's chapter on target panic several times, and what he says about target panic as a conditioned reflex makes a lot of sense. I also believe his drills to prevent or cure target panic will work for people.
I think Steve B. is hitting on an important issue above, however, that I would like to discuss. He says, "When I came to full draw my mind had a harder time controlling all of the variables that were going to throw the arrow off target. I consciously focused on the different elements of my form but my shots were inconsistent anyway and my mind could not get a hold of the problem and became confused and the whole process snowballed into a psychological turmoil."
If I am reading him correctly, he had anxiety because he was focusing during his shot on elements of his shooting form that were not coming together as they should have. I think this feeling of anxiety is one reason we have target panic in archery, but don't develop a similar conditioned reflex in some other activity that requires actions to be performed in a timed sequence. If the timed sequence in some other activity did result in anxiety, then maybe there would be some equivalent of target panic in that activity also.
I think a lot could be done to reduce target panic if the anxiety that the shot was not coming together as it should could be reduced. So how do we do that?
I think the best way to do that would be to do something that I have had preached at me my whole archery life, but have never really practiced much. That is, to separate working on form from shooting for accuracy. Kidwell also mentions this in his book, that we can't expect to hit what we're shooting at unless 100% of our concentration is on the target.
That means that zero percent of our concentration can be focused on our shoulder allignment, our back tension, our bow arm, and whether we are coming to full draw. If we are focusing zero percent of our focus on those things when we are shooting for accuracy, they shouldn't be able to cause us much if any anxiety.
On the other hand, when we work on form, by shooting at a blind bale at close range with no target, we can focus 100% of our attention on whatever form element or elements we want to work on, and zero percent of our attention on hitting anything in particular. Since we're not trying to hit anything, I would think this would be a low anxiety situation also.
I don't think this bifurcation would be effective in solving hard core cases of target panic, but might work as a preventative or in cases where target panic hasn't really grabbed hold.
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There is tremendous wisdom here that is coming from people who are dedicated to their sport and have committed themselves to improvement in that sport. The avenues taken to discover the answers come from different directions and all of the insights gained along the way, buy each explorer searching for the answer, offers a valuable piece of information. All those pieces of information will at some point converge to paint a clear picture of what we all search for.
I think this feeling of anxiety is one reason we have target panic in archery, but don't develop a similar conditioned reflex in some other activity that requires actions to be performed in a timed sequence. If the timed sequence in some other activity did result in anxiety, then maybe there would be some equivalent of target panic in that activity also.
Many professional golfers have had to give up the professional pursuit of their game because they developed a case of the "yips" with their putting. I recently talked to a fellow archer who at one time was a promising professional golfer that had to leave the sport because of the "yips." When a person gets the yips they putt the ball prematurely (before they complete the back swing with the putter) and they cannot compete with that loss of control. Slight changes in equipment can help. The belly putter was actually invented by someone trying to cure the yips. It works for a while and many golfers use them till they develop the yips and then they switch to the claw grip then something else.
I think the best way to do that would be to do something that I have had preached at me my whole archery life, but have never really practiced much. That is, to separate working on form from shooting for accuracy. Kidwell also mentions this in his book, that we can't expect to hit what we're shooting at unless 100% of our concentration is on the target.
That means that zero percent of our concentration can be focused on our shoulder allignment, our back tension, our bow arm, and whether we are coming to full draw. If we are focusing zero percent of our focus on those things when we are shooting for accuracy, they shouldn't be able to cause us much if any anxiety.
Most people will admit that they shoot their best when they just go on autopilot, focus on the spot and let their body do it's thing without conscious input. As soon as we begin to think about what we are doing we mess things up. That is why accomplished shooters preach that form should take place in front of a "blank bail" concentrating on form and with no thought given to accuracy. Once you have committed the new form to memory and do it on autopilot, you step back and allow that new form to express itself, on its own, as you shift your focus 100% downrange to the spot.
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I also see many direct correllations between archery and golf. The time to work on your form is at the driving range, not while playing a round. While working on your form the end result of putting all together should be to develop a rythmn. Seperate your form drills from other shooting. The proper rythmn should be a compilation of all the work drills. Think rythmn and pick a spot.
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McDave,
What I was trying to not get too long-winded about is better said like this:
If I could somehow shoot a bow that was weightless and had zero draw weight I would do very well because my mind knows exactly how I need to orient my arms and body in order to hit that spot. When I introduce all the tensions and stress inherent in a hunting weight bow my mind now has to work to keep that form. The lower the tension, the lower the distractions.
So it's "easier" to stay in form if I don't come to full draw. This is where bow draw weight is critical.
The problem is that I can't use a 40 lbs. bow to kill an elk. So if I am going to use a 60 lbs. bow I am going to have to train myself to do so, and that means overcoming that subconscious command to shoot because any further increase in stress is making it increasingly difficult to stay on target. I have to make conscious decisions to overcome my subconscious. So premature release is not an option.
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I have suffered from panic for several years now. It started with compounds and it got so bad I was on the verge of not hunting. I changed to trad and was doing ok but it has come back. What I go thru is the uncontrollable urge to release, I have this " fear that if I dont shoot now I will miss the chance" the only thing that I can do is blind bale practice which is helping but it has not cured it. I have had a good compound coach tell me that every archer will have it at sometime , some will have it worse than others.
The comparison to golf is correct, these are two sports where form and concentration come in contact with pressure.
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Steve b.
Just an obswervation, but the major difference between shooting a bow and shooting a firearm, you are never totally relaxed in your muscles shooting a bow.
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Jay,
You are the man!
I worked your drills this past weekend and now feel in complete control of my shot...amazing stuff. Perhaps I did not have "it" as bad as others to be successful this quickly.
To add a brief personal note to others dealing with this topic...relax and stay calm when doing Jay's drills. If you feel any anxiety, go back to step #1.
Many Thanks Jay,
Todd
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To add a brief personal note to others dealing with this topic...relax and stay calm when doing Jay's drills. If you feel any anxiety, go back to step #1.
Excellent advice Todd. By doing that you actually create an new association between anxiety and relaxation which desensitizes you to future anxiety. I'm going to make a note to add that to any revisions I do with my book. Thanks.
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dragonheart, the "flinch" which shooters develop is learned in a similar way as target panic in archery. That is just another example of learning through association. You get rid of that by dry firing then mixing live ammo with dummy ammo.
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Great stuff!! I'am a recovering "TP" man. What worked for me was reading and using J-Kid book. Best money I have spent. It didn't happen over night but with time and work I have beat the "Beast". I now shoot like I did in years past if not better!!
"Dicipline the Mind and the Body will follow"
Easy to say but sometimes hard to do. But if you put your mind to it and take small steps you'll be running in no time! Now that hunting seasons are over, it's a good time to read Jays book and get on the path to "TP" recovery.
Good Luck to all who are dealing with "TP"!!!!
Perfect practice makes for perfect play!
Raven >>>>----------> :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :archer: :clapper:
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Jay how do I get your book? I'd like to buy it.
How do I get your drills? They sound fantastic.
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Tom, PM sent.
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Jay's drills are straightforward and easy to do.
People should buy his book.
They are similar to the 'drills' that I've been using over the last week or so.
I get 4 arrows in the bow quiver.
I draw one, hold for 5 seconds, then let it down.
I then draw it again and hold for 3 seconds and shoot.
Repeat.
I think though, that your idea of moving around the target is better for control.
Another one I've been working on is drawing and holding a few metres either side of the target, moving slowly to the target then shooting. At first it was surprisingly difficult to do it with complete control.
I agree with you also about what you said regarding knowing about the panick.
The more you know about the more you can do to prevent it.
It's not a really big deal if you do start to suffer, just approach your archery with a little bit of commonsense. Wtih the help of people around you like J-Kid you can easily get back into control.
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Mr. Kidwell I was wondering if you could send me the drills you have spoke of I have noticed my son drawing short. he is hitting anchor ocasionally but less and less as time goes on. thanks
Matt
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Target panic and being overbowed is to diffrent
things. I thought i had target panic but it
turned out i was overbowed. I grabed a compound
bow with 50% letoff and was holding 30lbs and i had no problem holding .You have to be honest with yourself about what weight you can handle
easily.Now if you take a light bow and you still cant hold it then it is target panic.
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Has anyone ever really thought through this weight issue and come up with a "rule of thumb" for what weight a person should shoot? I just drew my #55 longbow a few times and I can hold it for about 5 or 6 seconds (real ones, not counted) before I notice any loss of muscle tone that might negatively effect my shot. I know at that weight I can do my drills and I can be patient if the shot I thought I had takes a moment or two to present itself.
I'd be curios to know if someone "in the know" has given this notion serious thought.
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I think I heard Byron Ferguson say once a person should be able to draw and hold for ten seconds and still make a acurate shot, I think the acurate shot would tell the tale.
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Originally posted by mjc:
I think I heard Byron Ferguson say once a person should be able to draw and hold for ten seconds and still make a acurate shot, I think the acurate shot would tell the tale.
I don't like that idea at all.
I think if you can shoot accurately while maintaining good and practiced form, both in a recreational, training, and hunting situation, then you're not overbowed.
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I'm with you, Tom. I thought about responding to this and saying that I can't imagine ever wanting to hold my bow at full draw for 10 seconds, but then I thought, who am I to question something Byron Ferguson said?
I think that if a person can draw their bow and hold at full draw for whatever amount of time their shooting style calls for, without shaking, and repeat that enough times to get in a good practice session, that should be fine.
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For me, shooting a light weight bow gives me the oppertunity to over do the: reaching anchor and letting down and/or holding form for longer periods. This lets me more easily control the shot. Once I have rid myself of all the old bad habits, it is my hope that I can go back up in weight, a little. I am working with a 49#@30 inches right now and expect to recieve a 45#@30 inches soon. I began my shooting career shooting 65#@29. Changing my anchor got me to 30 inches of draw. I hope someday to go to 55#@30 inches.
CKR
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I probably would agree with Mr. Ferguson. Being able to hold to ten seconds and make a good shot would sure confirm two things: 1) Being comfortable with your bows weight, and… 2) You would certainly have complete control of every aspect of the shot.
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Same could be said for 5 seconds in my view.
It's way unrealistic anyway.
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It's way unrealistic anyway.
Why is that Tom? I hold ten seconds or more in my practice sessions.
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Well I hold 5. I don't see the need to hold for 10 in my situation.
In this case, my original comment is still what I think.
"I think if you can shoot accurately while maintaining good and practiced form, both in a recreational, training, and hunting situation, then you're not overbowed."
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I tried a lighter bow for the fun of it and I got the same results. I can hold about 5-6 seconds before I begin to feel my muscles tremble. I can shoot well up to that point. 5 seconds is longer than I thought! I can hold both bows for 10 seconds. As for accuracy at 10 - Watch Out!
Maybe we are coming up with a rule of thumb here.
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I shake with 20 pounds and 70 pounds. I never would use that as a guide for myself.
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All I know is that I am a different shooter when my mind and muscles are fresh. So I make sure my mind and muscles are fresh before I take that shot at an animal.
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If all of you drop that bow weight down to a 30-35lb bow and go back over the training of your form (with no target) I guarantee you will hold at anchor for the "seconds" needed to direct an accurate shot. each of us has the ability to do this but the time factor will vary .I could do it in 1 or 2 seconds but someone else may need 3-4 seconds. If you are shooting Instinctive Hill style it really shouldnt take longer than that. The key though is that your form is still correct.Once you get it correct stay a while and enjoy ands groove the system in. Then gradually go back up ,maybe in 5-6 lbs increments.But you will get to a point where the weight is forcing you to shortdraw too many times.Then youll know your effective bow weight.
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Dropping in weight helps alot.
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I am working on TP with Jay's book and his help and I can tell you the weight of the bow does seem to cause form problems, but it does not mean you are "overbowed". I can hold at anchor with my 50# without shooting for a good 20-30 seconds (timed) but when I get in front of the butt it seems harder to hold. Now with the 45# bow I can come to anchor and hold and get my shot off time after time. One thing that Jay's book has taught me is that it is the "mental situation" which causes TP and not necessarily something physical in other words it is all in the noggin. Being overbowed may lead to bad habits, which cause bad form, which cause bad muscle memory which can lead to TP. That is the way I understand it at least and if I am wrong Jay please correct me.
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That's correct. With TP even a light bow can feel almost impossible to pull to anchor.