Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: KellyBender on March 09, 2009, 02:26:00 PM
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I just got back from Ricks shooting school this Sat night. There are always lots of questions about it so I figured I would give some feedback.
In a nutshell, it is without a doubt the best thing I have ever done since I started shooting my recurve a couple of years ago. The improvement to my shooting is truly remarkable. To give you an idea, when I first got there Fri am, he had me shoot 20 targets after a short warm up to give us a benchmark. Scoring was a "10", "8", "5" and "0" for a miss. There were 20 targets at varying distances...maybe 12/15 yards to maybe 20/25(max) yards. My first round score was a 123. On the morning of the second day, I shot another 20 3-d targets and I scored a 183. If anything, the shots the second day were farther than the first day...15 yards out to 25/28.
I could spend a long time on all the things we went over and how they have changed my shooting..to say for the better would be an understatement. Before the class, 20 yards was about my max range to shoot comfortable....really about 18 yrds or so. On the afternoon of the second day, we were both shooting and after shooting about 25 targets or so, I started to pace off the ranges I was shooting in and was amazed that most were 25-30 and some 30+. Rick even made a comment "you probably didn't even realize how far you were shooting". And...I was hitting with a lot in the "10 ring" but if not there, definitely in the "kill zone" (an "8").
There have always been a lot of comments about his shooting so let me talk about some of the more common ones..
1) His shooting style is only for target shooting. NOPE. On the second day, he had me shooting sitting down, kneeling, out of a treestand and sometimes at wierd angles (body twisted), through openings in the tree limbs....all simulating hunting examples. Despite all these scenarios..result was the same...same consistency as I was getting before. 2) He is gap shooting, etc. NOPE. The whole time I was there, I never used any reference to gauge distance...tip of the arrow, sight window, etc. Pick a spot...anchor...hold...hold...hold and let the release happen.
If anyone has any questions, let me know. Tons of great stuff so it is hard to remember it all and put it into words.
I am still amazed at how nearly "automatic" a 25 yard shot became. More importantly for me was the fact that whenever I made a bad shot, I knew exactly what I did wrong.
if anyone wants to improve their shooting and has an open mind, i can not say enough good things about this school. I wound up selling all of my compound stuff...nearly $800 worth to fund the trip to go to the school and couldn't be happier that I did.
Trust me....do whatever you have to...and go to the school, you will be happy you did.
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That's awsome Greg! I was hoping you would have a good time, and pick up some new found skills.
Good job,
sammy
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Glad you had a good experience, Greg. I had the same experience when I went.
Remember in your own practicing that everything he told you to do in the school had an effect in how accurately you were able to shoot there.
For example, at home when I wasn't shooting quite as well as I was in Rick's class, I had to remind myself that in the class, we shot one arrow at a time and retreived it before shooting another one. At home I more or less automatically went back to shooting groups, since that's the way I've always done it.
When I started shooting one arrow at a time at home, my shooting improved. I think when shooting instinctively, my mind can only focus to the extent necessary to shoot well for a short amount of time, and then it needs a rest. Walking to get the arrow before I shoot my next shot gives it the rest it needs, so I can focus on the next shot.
The other thing Rick drilled into me was holding for a full two seconds at full draw before shooting. Again, when I don't do that at home, I don't shoot as well. And if I consciously try to hold for two seconds after I have not been doing it for a while, I get the "yips" and don't do very well for a while either. I have to train myself to do what Rick said, every time, all the time, if I am going to keep shooting as well as I did in his class.
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Hey Dave. Pretty funny. for me....I am having "nightmares" about rick telling me "hold, hold, hold", "slow down", and "like a rock" (my bow arm).
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Greg:
I am not suprised by your post -- I attended Rick's school at the end of January and I had the same experience. The school is very helpful because the shooting technique is something that can be repeated every time.
When I see someone really struggling at a 3d shoot, I always suggest Ricks shooting video. While not as good as attending the school, it does a good job of laying out the basic elements of a good shot.
Glad you had a good time.
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Great review, thanks a lot. I would love to be able to go someday.
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What was the total cost and total time at the school?
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I'm guessing his class is on the west coast? How many days is it and out of curiousity how much was it...sounds like a great class.
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he is in Arkansas...40 minutes west of little rock. School is $400 and is 2 days (I left at 3pm to make a flight back to CO on day 2).
www.dakotabows.com (http://www.dakotabows.com)
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Does that include room and board? food? What time does it start on the weekend and end?
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you are on your own for food and hotel. I also got a cheap rental car to get from the airport to Conway (about 40 minutes). rick picked me up at the hotel each day. wound up costing me about $700-800 total...worth every penny.
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Thanks Kelly..i am about 4 hours from him. I have been basically shooting the same form as Rick for 20 years except I do not use 3 under or cock feather touching the nose. So basically he fletches the cock feather up a little to touch nose? Also when he draws, does he draw the string UNDER his jaw and bring up to his eye? I tried last night drawing straight back and my thumb knuckle felt aukward bumping into my cheek.
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"Also when he draws, does he draw the string UNDER his jaw and bring up to his eye? I tried last night drawing straight back and my thumb knuckle felt aukward bumping into my cheek."
Cock your thumb back like you were cocking a revolver, so the end thumb knuckle sticks out a little. Draw straight back until your end thumb knuckle lightly brushes the bottom of your ear lobe. It shouldn't feel awkward if you're doing it right. If you find you're hitting consistently to the left, you can tuck the thumb knuckle behind your jaw bone, which will move the back of the arrow a little to the left and move the impact a little to the right.
I believe Terry Green uses the thumb knuckle tucked behind his jawbone, and doesn't use the cock feather anchor.
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one think i found interesting about Welch style ( on youtube) is his release hand flying wildly to the right after release instead of pull through.....but the target at 30 yards didn't lie....he stacked them in there tight. real tight...This Terry Green fellow ya'll keep mentioning..is he a good shot? :rolleyes:
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Terry Green is our guru. Check out Terry's clock, which is an illustration of good allignment (shown at the top of the shooter's forum main page), his many responses to shooters hoping for an expert evaluation of their form, and his shooting style illustrated in the Trad Gang shooting video.
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I'm screwing with McDave..i know Terry...i would classify Terry style as Asbell and whole host of others before G.Fred. G. Fred put it all together back in late 80's with his classic "Instintive Shooting" book. I was never a big fan of stooping over at the waist so I spit out that koolaid and drank another!!! Welch style interests me though.....shooting foam is fun again trying to figure out how he does it......
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Bow moves to much with that Asbell swing method for me ....need less movement , almost like ya aint there!
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When you talk about useing your thumb knuckle, is it the knuckle nearest the thumb nail or nearest you hand?
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Nearest the thumbnail
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joebuck did hit on a thing I'm also wondering about. How the heck does Rick shoot so well with that release? Seriously he's all over that place after the string slips from his hand; that said I can't argue with results! Man this man can shoot!
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Thanks Tex, boy that will increase my dl. I'll have to give it a try.
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Kelly,Its good to hear of all your progress. I got Rick's dvd a few weeks ago and found it very helpfull. One thing I can't seem to commit myself to is drawing to my ear, it feels very unnatural to me. Does he teach all students to shoot that way? Kenny.
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Kenny:
I attended Rick's school in January and at the time I was anchoring at the corner of my mouth rather than thumb knuckle at jaw/earlobe. With this anchor, I was still able to touch my nose on the tip of the fletching. Rick told me not to change my anchor as it seemed to be working for me. So, my guess is that he would tell you to do the same thing (i.e stay with the anchor you are comfortable with). The important thing is to have solid anchor points that you can repeat every time.
The jaw/earlobe anchor seemed awkard to me at first as well. However, I continued working with it and have now switched from the corner of the mouth to the jaw/earlobe anchor. I think I get a cleaner release and I know I have a repeatable drawlength each time.
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I have a question for you guys. I bought Ricks dvd about a year ago and have been using some of his techniques since about last summer. My groups have tightened up considerable. My groups at thirty now are what they were at twenty last summer. But no matter what I do, I always shoot left. I have tried different strike plates and that has helped, but not correted.
I know you are not suppose to pay attention to where the arrow is pointed, but if I want to hit where I am looking, the arrow has to be about a foot to the right of the target at twenty yards. Why is this? Is it because my anchor is no longer directly under my eye?
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"Is it because my anchor is no longer directly under my eye?"
Very likely. If you're just rotating your head to get your nose behind the cock feather, your eye will be to the left of the arrow, causing you to miss to the left. If you tilt your head instead, you can control where your eye is over the arrow. If you try it, you can actually tilt your head enough that you start missing to the right (what a relief!). In order for this to work, you need to cant the bow enough so that your eye doesn't end up behind the string. Make sure you're not torqueing the bow string when you cant the bow (i.e. putting an "S" bend in the string because your string hand wants the bow to be in a more vertical position).
Watch the flight of your arrow. If it seems to be moving from right to left, that means your eye is not over the arrow.
Or it could be form. Not keeping a bend in your bow arm will cause misses to the left, if your bow hand recoils to the left.
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PSU My name is Dave Mullins, I'm Rick's web guy. I encourage you to email Rick when it's convient, tell him I sent ya. He'll help you, no doubt. To me I question if it could be an eye dominance issue,not to mention that "aiming" can induce target panic.I want you to know that I very much want to see you succeed, & resolve this issue. Shoot Rick an email, between all of us here we'll get ya lined out. :thumbsup:
[email protected]
Also, if I can be of further assistance, don't hesitate to call me. I've had the pleasure of speaking to guys from Canada to south Florida, about Rick's shooting method.
Dave Mullins 304-542-8705 [email protected]
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Originally posted by McDave:
"Is it because my anchor is no longer directly under my eye?"
Very likely. If you're just rotating your head to get your nose behing the cock feather, your eye will be to the left of the arrow, causing you to miss to the left. If you tilt your head instead, you can control where your eye is over the arrow. If you try it, you can actually tilt your head enough that you start missing to the right (what a relief!). In order for this to work, you need to cant the bow enough so that your eye doesn't end up behing the string. Make sure you're not torqueing the bow string when you cant the bow (i.e. putting an "S" bend in the string because your string hand wants the bow to be in a more vertical position).
Watch the flight of your arrow. If it seems to be moving from right to left, that means your eye is not over the arrow.
Or it could be form. Not keeping a bend in your bow arm will cause misses to the left, if your bow hand recoils to the left.
This makes sense, I am currently holding my bow completly vertical. I think if I cant my bow slightly, then tilt my head to match the cant, the arrow will then be under my eye. Is this what you meant?
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Originally posted by waiting4fall:
PSU My name is Dave Mullins, I'm Rick's web guy. I encourage you to email Rick when it's convient, tell him I sent ya. He'll help you, no doubt. To me I question if it could be an eye dominance issue,not to mention that "aiming" can induce target panic.I want you to know that I very much want to see you succeed, & resolve this issue. Shoot Rick an email, between all of us here we'll get ya lined out. :thumbsup:
[email protected]
Also, if I can be of further assistance, don't hesitate to call me. I've had the pleasure of speaking to guys from Canada to south Florida, about Rick's shooting method.
Dave Mullins 304-542-8705 [email protected]
I wouldnt say that I aim, as I dont pay attention to the arrow, but when I first started shooting using rick method, i was always shooting to the left. Over time, my mind took control and I started hitting where I was aiming, but I would notice(if I looked at the arrow) that the arrow was about a foot right of were I was looking. This doesnt seem right to me.
I will shoot Rick and email.
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"I am currently holding my bow completly vertical. I think if I cant my bow slightly, then tilt my head to match the cant, the arrow will then be under my eye. Is this what you meant?"
Yes, only you might have to cant your bow slightly more than you tilt your head, so that the bowstring clears your head. It is pretty easy to figure this out by trial and error. Then if you just start observing the arrow flight, you can tell if your eye is over the arrow. If the arrow seems to be coming from right to left, your eye is to the left of the arrow. If the arrow seems to be coming from left to right, your eye is to the right of the arrow. If the arrow seems to be moving straight toward the target, your eye is over the arrow.
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I just went out and shot a few arrows with my bow canted at what felt right, and everything was spot on. Thanks guys.
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I am happy to report that tonight, I missed to the right. It never felt so good to miss.
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The next thing is, when you're confident that you can shoot straight with your eye over the arrow, move your anchor out away from your face so it is more of a floating anchor.
In the class, Rick noticed that I was getting a red mark on my face from brushing it with the string, and told me to move my anchor out a little from my face so I wouldn't do that. But when I tried that, I just missed more to the left, because I was moving the arrow out away from my face without keeping my eye over it.
Rick is a gifted archer, and I'm sure his eye automatically centers over the arrow every time, without his even thinking about it. But us lesser mortals have to learn to do it.
When Rick anchors, he has a very slight contact with his thumb knuckle and his earlobe, and the cock feather barely brushes his nose. I don't believe there is any contact with his face. I think this is one of the secrets of his accuracy.
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I have tried his anchors many times, while shooting, and just while messing around in my house. I just can not get the thumb to earlobe anchor. I dont know if it is the structure of my face or what, but I just can not get it. I have been anchoring by tucking my thumb bone up behind my cheek bone and the feather on my nose.
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It is not where the spot you anchor is, it is having the same spot everytime. Good repeatedable form is important - how you achieve it will vary among individuals and trying to exactly copy anyone can very well hurt as much as help.
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The first and foremost of importance is a consistent anchor point. This is absolutely critical!! Then...lets not forget bow setup! Rick teaches how to make the bow shoot where your eyes and arms are naturally telling you. I find this to be as critical as your anchor point! If you are are consistently hitting to the left of your target, then you need to use a softer side plate, perhaps carpet/rug or velcro to move your hitting to the right. When you attend his school, he is not so concerned with your high/low misses. Some of that is "your learning curve" and your muscles need to develop memory. If you are very consistently hitting high or low, then you need to adjust nock point accordingly. I took the class, I would highly recommend you doing the same! If there is anyway you can save up the funds, I strongly urge you to make this investment! I will be glad to speak with you and explain more, just pm me with your contact info. Hope this helps!
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Originally posted by mancole5:
The first and foremost of importance is a consistent anchor point. This is absolutely critical!! Then...lets not forget bow setup! Rick teaches how to make the bow shoot where your eyes and arms are naturally telling you. I find this to be as critical as your anchor point! If you are are consistently hitting to the left of your target, then you need to use a softer side plate, perhaps carpet/rug or velcro to move your hitting to the right. When you attend his school, he is not so concerned with your high/low misses. Some of that is "your learning curve" and your muscles need to develop memory. If you are very consistently hitting high or low, then you need to adjust nock point accordingly. I took the class, I would highly recommend you doing the same! If there is anyway you can save up the funds, I strongly urge you to make this investment! I will be glad to speak with you and explain more, just pm me with your contact info. Hope this helps!
I talked with Rick on several occasions about the different strike plate options. I am currently using a rug strike plate. I thought me shooting left had to do with my strike plate or arrow spine, but it ends up I just needed to cant my bow to get the arrow under my eye.
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Once you train yourself to shoot with your eye over the arrow, your arrows should hit pretty close to where you're looking. However, because of different spines and different bow designs, you may find that your arrow is still not hitting exactly where you're looking. Or you may have two different bows that hit in two different places. Rick's methods of moving the point of impact of the arrow by changing the rest material are useful for such situations.
I would not recommend changing the side plate or rest until you have developed a consistent shot. If you can consistently shoot a 4" group at 20 yards (or if you don't shoot groups, if your individual shots are consistently within that same margin of error), and that 4" group is consistently 2" left of where you want it to be, then use Rick's methods to move the group 2" to the right.
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What does Rick have to say about draw weight?
Say somebody shows up with a bow he loves, but it is heavy. Can you explain if there a way Rick uses to tell if the draw is too much or maybe even too little?
Good reading, thanks for the post!
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Kelly...aint got time to read the whole thread...but...
Congrats.....glad to see a trad bowhunter improve his shooting!!! Hope you are able to put it to use in the field soon!!!
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Zog, In Rick's class, you'll probably shoot 60 or more shots in a day. You'll want to be able to comfortably draw every shot to full draw. Rick will be more than happy to let you use one of his bows if the bow you bring is too heavy to do that. He's probably sold more bows by letting people shoot one of his during the class than any other way.
Rick understands the difference between a heavy hunting bow that you'll only be shooting a few times a day, and a target bow that you'll be shooting many times a day. Bring your favorite bow to class, light or heavy, and he'll be happy to help you get it set up for his method.