Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: joebuck on March 09, 2009, 10:09:00 PM
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Just curious on his style. What is his basics? Does he cut his arrow a certain lenght too? Can you shoot split finger like this?
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Your best bet would be to buy his 2 videos and analyze his form from there.
I got both of them, and his tips are very simple but effective. My shooting has improved since following his method.
He uses a double anchor point, and you can shoot split finger with his style.
Good Luck.
Brett
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Joey, do a search of this forum. pleny of Rick Welch to read. DB
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www.dakotabows.com (http://www.dakotabows.com)
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These are the basics (others may chime in if I missed anything).
1. Stance - perpendicular to target, recommends bow be held with lower tip between legs rather than to the side to facilitate initial shoulder allignment. Stance is upright with knees not noticeably bent. Turn your head toward the target without moving shoulders.
2. Controlled breathing until distractions are eliminated from your mind, then draw in a breath as you draw the arrow. Hold the breath until the arrow impacts the target.
3. Absolute focus on target until arrow impacts
4. Draw to double anchor, maintaining shoulders perpendicular to target, string on tips of fingers, especially with lightweight target bows.
5. Keep slight bend in bow arm.
6. Hold for at least two seconds
7. Release spontaneously, not planned
8. He feels that followthrough will be automatic if 1-7 are done right.
Rick sets your double anchor such that you reach full draw (your drawing forearm alligns with the arrow). For me, that meant the first anchor is my outer thumb knuckle cocked up a little and touching the bottom of my earlobe and the second is my nose touching the back of the cock feather. For this to work, my fletches had to be re-positioned forward so they are just in front of my nose at full draw. Most people find that their draw length is up to an inch or more longer than it was before the class. Since you are drawing further, and holding longer, this could be a problem if you are near your limits with your heavy weight hunting bow.
Rick recommends 3 under, but will teach split fingers if the student insists.
Rick is not big on arrow tuning in the traditional sense. He watches arrow flight and corrects for obvious wobbles, but he primarily uses nock point and shelf material to fine-tune the point of arrow impact. This can be intimidating if you don't feel your shooting is good enough to be fine-tuned yet, but by the end of his class it generally is.
Because he uses the cock feather as an anchor, the position of the cock feather is critical. He recommends left-wing feathers in order to achieve the optimal cock feather position while still allowing the quills to clear the shelf. For the same reason, he generally uses 4" feathers rather than 5" feathers, even for hunting.
He recommends shooting only one arrow at a time. Never shooting groups except for a brief warmup. Shoot from a different position each time you shoot.
He is only concerned in his class with developing left-right accuracy; vertical accuracy will come from shooting many shots from many different positions.
Rick is a wonderful teacher. One can summarize his method in a few words, but there is no way to duplicate being there as a student.
While there are some things they do differently, I don't believe there is any basic incompatibility between what Rick teaches and what Terry Green teaches. Rick teaches good, basic allingment and form, and Terry sort of takes it to the next level, maintaining that good allignment while rotating the torso to accomodate different hunting situations.
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You can use any release from what I have learned. split finger or 3 under.
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Thank you McDave!!.....I have shot split finger for 20 years. Saw a youtube of him stacking some arrows at 30 yards. Got me wondering. He's close to me here in MS , might give him a call. My buddy Hogdancer needs some help and this style may help him. McDave did you go to his class? Whats it like?
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I hesitate to post because some may take it as criticism, but that is not my intention at all. Just seeking understanding.
I and others are looking for what makes his method appear to stand out for many. With the exception of stance and fingertip hold, I see solid basics taught by any competent instructor.
What makes this different - I am always looking to improve.
Steve
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"What makes this different - I am always looking to improve."
Good question! When I came back from the class all bubbling over with enthusiasm because of my improved skills, my son asked me to explain Rick's method to him. His reaction was the same as yours - sort of underwhelmed.
Maybe the answer lies with the teacher: I'm sure we've all had teachers who could get things across to us better than others, and Rick is definitely a good teacher. As I mentioned in another post, maybe the answer lies in doing every single thing he teaches, every time you shoot. I found, for example, that if I went back to shooting groups or cheated on the two second hold, my accuracy suffered. I'm sure, for example, that if you thought it was too much trouble to move all the fletches on all your arrows, and thought it would be good enough to just use the thumb knuckle part of his anchor, you wouldn't shoot as well as if you used the double anchor.
I think we look at people like Rick, or Tiger Woods, and think they are made out of different stuff; that there's a gap between us that can't be bridged. A day an a half in Rick's class will convince you that at least some of the time, and granted under less pressure than the IBO, you can shoot just as well as he can.
Everyone I've heard or read leaves Rick's class shooting much better than when they came. Maybe we just never learned the fundamentals before?
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So basically the welch Style is as follows
1. Shoot a lighter bow so you can hold it
2. Shoot a lighter arrow so trajectory is flatter thus taking miss judging yardage not as critical as bad release which causes left to right. (1-30 yards)
3. have a double anchor..thumb behind the ear and cock feather on the nose.
4. aim down your arrow which is under your eye and
5. Do basic pre-draw stuff, breathing, stance alignment etc.
6.Hold arrow at full draw line everthing up, focus on the dot.
7. When bow arm is still, release. dead release..no pull through
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I got get to one Rick's schools. Cant hurt me. :)
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hang on Mark, I'm figuring this out pretty quick..good stuff here........i'll make you a video after i find a striker that works with your pot call i made you.
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Joey, on your #4 above, Rick doesn't want you to aim down your arrow, or see the arrow. If you do see it, he wants you to ignore it. The purpose of getting the arrow under your eye is for consistency from shot to shot.
On your #7 above, the problem with a dead release is that your drawing hand might creep forward and lose back tension, so while what you say is correct, I would add maintaining back tension. I do this by keeping my thumb knuckle just behind a certain location on my jawbone. If it creeps forward and touches my jawbone, I know I've got to either let down or reestablish tension before shooting.
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McDave...how does he feel about bow quivers? Does your arrow cover up the target 40 yards and out?
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Rick feels that if you are going to hunt with a bow quiver, you should always have it on the bow with the number of arrows in it that you plan on hunting with.
When I was in his class, he had me use his son's 40# bow, which was lighter than any of my bows (at least until he finishes building my 40# bow for me). It had a bow quiver and arrows. Of course, I shot better with his son's bow than any of my own bows, which I presume is at least in part due to the light weight.
My arrow covers the target at 40 yards, and so I can't avoid seeing it at those distances. At 20-30 yards, I pretty much ignore the arrow. For longer shots, I try to use the Hill method, which is to be aware of the arrow in my peripheral vision, but not consciously line it up with anything. I continue to focus on the target, because if I let my focus drift to the arrow point, I will miss.
Rick says he shoots purely instinctively without reference to the arrow point, but he does shoot at 40 yards or more at times, where it would be hard to ignore the arrow point, and I'm not sure what he does about the arrow point when it's right there in front of the target. Maybe the same thing I do.
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Hold on there Joebuck ! "your buddy Hogdancer needs some help " I guarantee I need some shooting help but I'm not holding for any 2 seconds, I can tell you that. I am all for improving your shooting and I think this will help you with all those tournaments you are always going on about. Some good info. and I think you should persue it. I don't want to win any tournaments, I just want to hit the next hogs that runs out in front of me :jumper:
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Thanks for bringing the Rick Welch tape over Hogdancer. I knew you would be on the cutting edge. I'll never apologize for my past since i have one. You can keep my World Howard Hill trophy for a week or two for the karma!
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Interesting stuff guys. What does Rick say about moving targets, like a walking deer? How have you found the method to work when hunting?
The style you are describing kindof matches mine, although I do not think I am as refined. You have about got me talked into getting his video and seeing what it is all about as I can always use some help.
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hey Joebuck, don't forget to bring up the superglove.
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Hogdancer, I'm laying low on that. there's an upset customer on another site right now about that! Watched the tape...Didn't watch the Wesley tape since he never won Cloverdale or a Southeastern!
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it's not all about tournaments Joebuck, you really need to get out more.
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What are you talking about Hogdancer..the only tournament i went too in last 10 years, i went with you to that Enid Lake shoot with you and your understudy.....BarBque and homemade icecream......lets don't miss the crayfish boil......we'll shoot for dinner!..that ole ****e Dale Dye bow you have refinished about 4 times against my hunting bow?
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your hunting bow ? the only thing you are good at killing is this thread.
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I'm tired of carrying this thread. you need to step up and contribute and get off the classifieds looking for your next used Dale Dye. You have what 4 of those bows and your name is not on any of them!
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:bigsmyl: :wavey:
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Hmm, maybe the upset superglove customer is here reading this thread... :thumbsup:
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In the videos it appears that he draws past his anchor and then comes forward and settles in. Is that in order to establish his second anchor point? How far forward would you need to move your fletchings to use that particular secondary N.P.? I was foolong around with it earlier and think for me it would be somewhere around a half inch, does that seem about right? Thanks Greg
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Greg,
You need to draw a bare shaft to full draw, i.e. where your drawing forearm is in line with your arrow. At that point someone needs to put a mark on the arrow opposite your nose, indicating where the fletching should start. For me, it was about 1 3/4" from the valley of the nock. Later, I found this to be a little short, because I want the cock feather to barely touch my nose at full draw, so I increased it to 1 7/8".
The danger of a method where you hold at full draw is that you will "settle in" and lose back tension. Clearly, Rick doesn't do that, or he wouldn't be able to shoot as well as he does. I've watched him shoot and he anchors in two separate movements: the first to reach full draw and the second to move his nose behind the cock feather. He does move his head a little bit to get his nose behind the cock feather, but I don't think his string hand comes forward any.
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Does Rick shoot the standard 3 fletch with cock fether out?
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Yes he does. He prefers 4" left wing feathers, even for hunting, with the cock feather somewhere between 9:00 - 10:00, depending on what provides the best clearance for bow shelf and strike plate.
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I tried this a little bit the other afternoon. When i started I used the bone under my eye as my anchor point. I shifted to the corner of my mouth. So i tried going back up. As this as my anchor standard fletching on Legacy arrows touched the end of my nose. Either I have a longer nose than Rick or there is something I don't understand about this process.
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i fletch mine 2 clicks back on blitzenburger ( 1 3/4" from throat of nock to tip of feather) then 1st knuckle of thumb touches my ear lobe. thats my 2 point that puts that arrow Right under my eye everytime
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Joey , sounds like you opened up kool-aid stand!!!think ur on to something...marco
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i just wnt to know how to get the release part down. i have tired back tension and it seems to make me move my bow hand. is rick getting a dead release?
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Rick uses a dead release. He holds at full draw for approx 2 seconds before he releases. This isn't that hard to do unless you are overbowed. You don't creep forward; your bow hand doesn't move back. You continue to hold under full tension until you release.
It is difficult to hold at full draw if you try to do it with your arms. I find it much easier to hold at full draw if I am mainly using my back muscles.
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i have bad tp and use a clicker now. i am going to try to "make" myself get over it. i want to give the welch system a try and feel the clicker will need to go to do so properly. i will not use my main bow on this but another to try it out. i pretty much have to change everything--anchor, release and all. going to try anyway
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You still might be able to use the clicker if you like it. You could pull until it clicks and then hold. The advantage is that if you lost tension, the clicker would unclick and you would know it.
I don't think you really need to use a clicker because of Rick's double anchor. You know when you're at full draw because otherwise you can't touch your nose to the back of the cock feather. If the cock feather moves forward off your nose while you're holding, then you know you're creeping forward.
"i pretty much have to change everything--anchor, release and all." You got that right!
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That clicker makes to much noise TJ. It sure was loud Sat. Try this double anchor set up and at least your bow will be quiter for hunting.
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i am going to. i do have another clicker that is very quiet if all else fails. i need to get with chris and get him to help me i think--this is how he shoots and always has even before he watched the video --last week.
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I shot 8 arrows today at 23 yards..6 of them hit the spot ( which was is the size of a half dollar) other 2 were within 1 inch. All arrows were shot single and with in an hour of each other..basically i shot 1 arrow an hour........I just drove into the Koolaid pond butt naked.
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"I just drove into the Koolaid pond butt naked."
I'd rather not think about that ! I'll call first before I come over from now on !
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is that the cement pond joebuck... :thumbsup: Watch Andy Griffth of Mayberry with ur kids it will bless ya all. Marco#78
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You got that right Ange'
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I know he uses the 3 under anchor, but does he anchor with the index finger or middle finger as a reference?
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Neither. One anchor is the thumb knuckle brushing against the bottom of the earlobe, and the other anchor is the nose against the back of the cock feather. The fingers are not part of the anchor.
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Man!I shot one of Rick's bows, I dont know what he does to the limbs, but it shoots straight and flat...I was just shooting 47 pounds wow!!! :eek: :thumbsup:
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OK guys,
Here's a little report on the Ricky Welch style that I tried yesterday. First off, I've never seen any of Ricky's tapes nor have I ever been to his school. I took what I had learned here (thanks McDAve) and other message boards, and applied it in a backyard experiment.
First step, I compared the 3 under anchor to both the index in the corner of the mouth and the middle finger in the corner of the mouth anchors. Shooting at very close range...about 10 feet. I shoot split vision or instinctive if you will.
The bow is a Quinn Stallion, 55# @ 28, drawn to 30", with a Bear Weatherest. This bow is still new to me and I haven't paper tuned it yet. Doesn’t even have a permanent nocking point yet. It shoots 2020 XX75's very well. I've shot GT 5575's thru it as well, but they showed overspined w/ 145 grains up front.
Even at 10 feet, shooting numerous groups with each anchor position, you could detect a difference in group size. I wasn't shooting for accuracy, just groups. The 3 under groups were tighter,...nock busting tighter.
With the other two anchor positions, the groups were more spread. No much, but there was a difference.
At 10 yards, the difference really began to show. The 3 under group stayed tight, the other anchor positions really began to fan out.
I started shooting for accuracy at this point. Without a doubt, the Rick Welch style topped my normal shooting methods. And I have shot for many years.
At 20 yards, I was hitting my spot repeatedly. Better than ever before. But not with the 2020’s.
With the 3 under draw, I wasn’t getting near the clean arrow flight with the 2020’s anymore. They were still grouping, but you could see the difference. They also consistently grouped low and left. Now for the funny part. The 5575’s now flew like absolute darts. I could barely see them in flight until they smacked the target.
Another interest, with the elevated rest, I could nock the arrow at almost a perfect 90 degrees, and still get great flight.
Was the bow noisier? A bit. But it has no silencers on it now. So that shouldn’t be a hard fix.
Conclusion…I’m sold. I’ve got to practice this new style more. And relearn my trajectories. But I haven’t been this accurate, or this consistent, in years.
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Remember the most important part of archery is the arrow , weighted and spine and matched correctly!
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Originally posted by LocDoc:
OK guys,
Here's a little report on the Ricky Welch style that I tried yesterday. First off, I've never seen any of Ricky's tapes nor have I ever been to his school. I took what I had learned here (thanks McDAve) and other message boards, and applied it in a backyard experiment.
First step, I compared the 3 under anchor to both the index in the corner of the mouth and the middle finger in the corner of the mouth anchors. Shooting at very close range...about 10 feet. I shoot split vision or instinctive if you will.
The bow is a Quinn Stallion, 55# @ 28, drawn to 30", with a Bear Weatherest. This bow is still new to me and I haven't paper tuned it yet. Doesn’t even have a permanent nocking point yet. It shoots 2020 XX75's very well. I've shot GT 5575's thru it as well, but they showed overspined w/ 145 grains up front.
Even at 10 feet, shooting numerous groups with each anchor position, you could detect a difference in group size. I wasn't shooting for accuracy, just groups. The 3 under groups were tighter,...nock busting tighter.
With the other two anchor positions, the groups were more spread. No much, but there was a difference.
At 10 yards, the difference really began to show. The 3 under group stayed tight, the other anchor positions really began to fan out.
I started shooting for accuracy at this point. Without a doubt, the Rick Welch style topped my normal shooting methods. And I have shot for many years.
At 20 yards, I was hitting my spot repeatedly. Better than ever before. But not with the 2020’s.
With the 3 under draw, I wasn’t getting near the clean arrow flight with the 2020’s anymore. They were still grouping, but you could see the difference. They also consistently grouped low and left. Now for the funny part. The 5575’s now flew like absolute darts. I could barely see them in flight until they smacked the target.
Another interest, with the elevated rest, I could nock the arrow at almost a perfect 90 degrees, and still get great flight.
Was the bow noisier? A bit. But it has no silencers on it now. So that shouldn’t be a hard fix.
Conclusion…I’m sold. I’ve got to practice this new style more. And relearn my trajectories. But I haven’t been this accurate, or this consistent, in years.
Welcome to the "dark side" :biglaugh: . Seriously, glad to hear that your performance has greatly improved. I've provided some links below, that may be of interest.
http://shop.dakotabows.com/product.sc?categoryId=2&productId=8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVeKKtdqHM8&feature=channel_page
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Greetings, all. Wanted to thank everyone who has posted in this topic, and the other topics on Mr. Welch's style.
I've just picked a (long)bow for the first time in my life - I shot some in Boy Scouts, but that was almost thirty years ago. Figured with a Welsh grandmother on one side and an Indian grandmother on the other, I had to pick up a longbow at some point.
I had been trying to shoot like I was told a trad bowman should... bent at the waist, knock at the corner of the mouth, etc. I was spraying arrows all over the yard. I found this forum, found this topic, and now, without ever having even seen this man shoot, I'm putting arrows in the paper from wherever I shoot. I'll have to play around with the fletching to let my gargatuan nose fit behind the cock feather. Have to learn how to fletch first though.
Gah, this read like an AmWay testimonial. Sorry about that. In any case, Mr. Welch has a fan smack in the middle of the green hills of New Zealand. Can't way to get the DVDs over here and keep improving.
Thanks, everyone.
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Llyr,
Good idea on learning to fletch your own arrows.
May I also suggest getting a good supply of nocks.
Your gonna need them.
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So far I have only used what I have gotten here from the description and the video clips and I have improved dramatically.
I will be one of the first to buy the new DVD. Just maybe I can get to Arkansas, too.
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I have been to his school too.
McDave is spot on with his explanations on Rick's method.
If you can afford it go to his school-if you can't afford it,go anyway -it's worth it.
Don
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Hey guys just noticed this thread. I went to Ricks school 3 years ago, and I am now a better shot than I ever thought possible. Im going to give you guys some reasons why I believe his method will help anyone improve.
Let's start with the anchor. Everybody who starts shooting a traditional bow thinks that the place to anchor is in the corner of the mouth. This anchor works really well for some people, but not so good for most. The reason is that for most people, when you anchor in the corner of your mouth, you are not fully extended. It is different for each person. By anchoring the way Rick teaches, you HAVE to be fully extended and proper alignment and back tension are the results of this.
Holding vs. not holding. I have seen the videos of Terry shooting. Man, do I wish I could shoot with his style. It looks so fluid, and he is very accurate. But I can't. I'm one of those guys that holds for 2 to 3 seconds. It works well for me. Gives me time to let my brain settle in on the sight picture. If I do not hold, my shooting suffers.
By the way, we are not really holding because we are applying constant back tension while at full draw.
3 under. I prefer 3 under because it is easier for your brain to make the proper calculations as far as windage goes.
These are just a few things. A note about the videos. They are great, but there is alot of info that is missed by tring to figure it out on the video. My advice is to spend the money and go take his class. It is inexpensive, fun, and you WILL be shooting better when you leave.
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I meant to say that alot of people are not fully extended when anchoring in the corner of the mouth. It depends on each persons build. Some people are fully extended and have great allignment by anchoring in the corner of the mouth, but many, in my opinion do not.
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I might add my own experience with Rick's school. As with others it improved my shooting phenomenally (I shot 193 when I left, unbelievable for me).While at the school, I did not try to think about the method much, just concentrated on trying to achieve what Rick was saying: "hold, hold... too fast". "Keep both eyes open"."What was the distance? Don't know, don't care." "Admire your sight picture". Relaxation and letting it happen was a key to shooting well in the context of his double anchor method of knuckle on the ear lobe and tip of nose to the cock feather. His method aligns the archer to the target and gives them a consistent repeating draw length. He sets up your bow (or his) to fit the archer so you are using back tension to aid in holding and keep consistent alignment. After the school, I continued to shoot well but not quite as good as at Rick's school. Why? My bow does not fit me as well as Rick's did at the school and is a higher poundage. I began to shoot a bit to the left as my shot collapsed. I watched Ricks second video and noticed his draw arm elbow is very high. I tried that and it helped bring the arrows back to center. It felt better and felt like I had better back tension so was holding better. Still I occasionally was shooting to the left. So I fletched the arrows just 1/4 inch deeper to extend my draw slightly when I touch nose to feather. That was the ticket and immediately I was shooting straight as back tension and alignment was corrected. Rick's method looks simple but all the components need to there for it to work. This is also true of any other method of shooting bare bow if you want to shoot good and consistent. I think a lot of archers are like myself and shoot bows that may stack or don't fit the archer in some way. Bottom line for me is that shooting is fun again and I can't wait to put the method to use on whitetails and, if I'm lucky, on an elk in September.
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After reading all the good reports I knew I had to try these methods. I must say I am a beginner so take it for what it is worth. My accuracy improved immediately with going three under. I also changed my anchor from finger in corner of mouth to thumb knuckle under ear. I must say after all the practice with my bow this is my first break through. It feels good!
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I went to Rick's school two weeks ago. Like eveyone else who's been there I shot much better there than I did before. When I got home, however, things were still better, but not as much and not as consistently. Part of the issue is that I shot one of Rick's bows while I was there, because the lighter one I'd taken with me didn't fit (you'll be able to find it in the classifieds soon). His was such a smooth, sweet shooting bow that I tried to buy it from him then and there - no luck so I ordered one from him. The other part of the issue, of course, is me.
I've been practicing since, as he said, one shot at a time, but it hasn't been going as well as it was when I was there. Having spent yesterday shooting with a friend who was kind enough to watch what I was doing closely, I think I've fallen into the same issue as Bruce, and that the same adjustment will cure it. Rick warned me that that was likely to happen - he said that bad habits, like losing back tension, that have developed over time take time to break and to expect a month or two to really get it right consistently.
The school is such a great experience that I'd happily go back and do it again next year, just for the fun of shooting with the guy. If you're thinking about going, and wavering for any reason other than economics, go. It'll be worth every cent and more to you.
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I'm not sure how I got on this subject, I think it was the vid of rick stacking arrows at 30 yards then did a search on here.
I tried some of what I saw in waitingforfall's video at ricks school. Basically just the double anchor. I too had been having trouble with my bow arm moving and hitting to the left.
I focused on anchoring with my middle finger tip in the corner of my mouth as usual but also putting my thumbs knuckle in the tender spot under my earlobe. I also held longer and concentrated on my back muscles insted of pulling with my bicep.
Upon release I held my form for a full two seconds. All I can say is that the shot is much more fluid and that I shot better. I usually only shoot one arrow at a time anyway so I didn't have a group to look at. Remembering how much better my last few shots were gave me a mental group though. I have to say I shot better.
The man definetly knows what it takes to shoot a trad bow to its full potential. I'd love to attend that class.