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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Chub on April 12, 2009, 09:36:00 PM
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i was at a local shoot saturday im a hunter not a target shooter a gent came up to me and asked if i shoot alot of 3D i said no why did not get the point of ? so talking to some people they said i have a form of snap shooting because i dont pause at my anker so this week i tried pausing at anker no consisteny in my groups is this socalled snap shooting a bad thing or just a bad habit
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I don't know. When people accuse you of being a snap shooter it seems to be a bad connotation doesn't it?
Yet Fred Bear called himself a snap shooter. Maybe you can snap shoot like Fred Bear or snap shoot meaning you don't reach anchor.
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I've always been under the impression that snap shooting is a form of target panic.
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Originally snap shooting was meant to describe someone who couldn't control the shot when it neared anchor. When the hand nears the face the release is gone. It is a form of target panic.
Some people shoot with a very quick and fluid style. Oftentimes there is little if any pause at anchor but there a definite anchor point. There are some people who can shoot this way very well. Most didn't start shooting this way. They usually start off shooting slower and controlled and as the shot becomes more subconcious it speeds up.
The difference between a fast shooter and a snap shooter is control. A true snap shooter doesn't have control when the hand releases. I have a friend who epitomizes the worst in snap shooting. He cannot control the release. It doesn't matter if it is a 30# bow or a 60# bow. When the hand is close to the face the shot is gone. Drawlength is inconsistent and accuracy is non-existant. I know another archer who shoots fast and fluid but is in control. He is a great 3D shot and an killer on animals. He has almost no pause at anchor but that is because he chooses to shoot that way.
If you can be totally honest with yourself ask whether or not you are in control of the shot. If the answer is no then you need to work on establishing a solid anchor and gaining control of the sequence. If the answer is yes, don't worry about it.
Chris
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The old timers that coined the phrase 'snap shooting' or 'snap shooter' that I personaly know/knew, was just phrase to describe a style of shooting.....someone who shot fast without holding, or never stopped pulling. Hill and Pearson were both great shooters, and refered to in those days as snap shooters....seems Fred Bear called himself a snap shooter as well.
As of late, others have miss used that phrase and have put a negative spin on it, mostly by those that don't understand what snap shooting is as deemed by our forefathers......and referring to snap shooting as out of control shooting and leading to target panic. I just wish the term snap shooter would quit being miss used.
Target panic is a mental issue, and causes uncontrollable releases....short drawing is also a mental issue, as the one shooting knows they are suppose to come to anchor.
Snap shooting is a style of 'releasing' or shooting, ...target panic, or out of control shooting is a condition.
Yep,....I'm a snap shooter, and snap shoot most times on game, but I have held on game as well many times, and holding or letting down is very common on hogs, sometime as many as 8 times before I got a shot....if I got one.
Here's Ron's take on it....he's been around long enough to know....
Originally posted by Ron LaClair:
I've been shooting a bow since I was a squirt... but I didn't really start to learn about form and style until I started shooting competition 49 years ago. While we never "stop" learning there are some things that become apparent after 50 years of study. One thing I do know for sure is there is no absolute style when it comes to shooting a bow.
When someone says you have to shoot this way or that way because all the top shots shoot that way, I say baloney. Some of the best shooters I've been privileged to know shot with what some would call an "unorthodox" style. Jim Pickering used a "Dead" release and high anchor when he competed in some of the top tournaments of the day in the 1960's. Everyone else in the Country shot with what was call "Power Archery" Jim whipped them all. He was a National Champion and a PAA Champion using a style that everyone said was "wrong". Jim Caspers another Archery Champion shot with a high elbow on his drawing arm. He actually pumped his arm up and down after he was at full draw, he said it helped him build up back tension.
As for the term "Snap shooter", I've been hearing it for 50 years and it was probably used before that. It has "always" been used to refer to someone that shot in one fluid motion, and whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.
I was privileged to talk to Fred Bear many times over the years and I remember him calling himself a "snap shooter". He said, "I'm a snap shooter,..I concentrate from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet". He said he couldn't shoot a compound because the let off interfered with the rhythm of his shooting style and broke his concentration.
"Good snap shooters"?...I've seen a lot of them. In the early years of the GLLI (Great Lakes Longbow Invitational) when scores were kept , we had the best shooters in the Country shooting for the honor of top dog. The shooters that won that shoot more often than not were what I call "Snap shooters" Very controlled, very meticulous, very accurate shooters whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.
Someone that "does not" come to full draw or touch their anchor before they release have what's called "target panic or what use to be called "IT". They are NOT...repeat NOT, snap shooters.
I think the problem is like what Terry said people today are "mis using" the term "snap shooter". Snap shooting is definitely not an inferior style of shooting a bow, however it must be realized that not everyone can master the snap shooting style. Those that can't may end up with target panic and be called snap shooters but in reality they are not.
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As someone who was a very bad "snap shooter" for years(No target panic at all) I will say its extremely hard to maintain consistent form snap shooting and for just that reason I would recommend against it.
Ive switched to a much more structured shooting cycle and my results have greatly improved.
I think you should learn to shoot from solid anchor and once you master that then try other types of shooting if thats what you want.
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i brought up this subject because if i shoot with a dead stop anchor i start to think to much but if i aproach the target relaxed and us thissocalled [SNAP SHOOTIHG FORM}A smooth draw release upon anchor i shoot better im sure there are lots of archers out there that shoot this way . you know i purchased master of bare bow1-2 all those great shooters said there is no standard of shooting also you must use what works for you .
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Thats also what happens if you dont have consistent form.
If you dont have good form then snap shooting will usually be an improvement.
But if form is the issue then youll have a problem being accurrate on that first shot(like when your hunting.)
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I disagree Dartwick...I know too many snap shooters that I hunt with that have great form and sure don't have a problem killing game with their 1st shot.
Howard Hill was a snap shooter too, and he was deadly on both targets and game.
Re-read that post by LaClair above.
We are all made up a little different, and what doesn't work for one might work for another. It doesn't mean it wont work for everyone. Case in point, snap shooting didn't work for you, but it sure does for me. You are probably doing the same thing I am....its just that I am doing the same thing faster. No harm, no foul, no worries. Each of us has to match our style with our make up. That way we will all reach our best potential.
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If you watch a well coached and accurate shooter, he will draw the bow to anchor, begin balanced pulling, aim and go to conclusion...all the while never stopping pulling...if he's in no rush it may take him 12-15 sec to get through his shot sequence, not that they can't do it much faster if needed.
If you watch a very good snap shooter,one that's in total control....he will draw the bow to anchor, as he aims never stopping pulling and go to conclusion...most only take a couple of second to get through their shot sequence...not that they can't do it much slower.
Anyone notice the similarities? Both are in total control and never stop pulling
:biglaugh:
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I think you misunderstood what I was saying Terry(I probably explained myself poorly.)
Im not saying you cant snap shoot well every shot. Im saying if your using snap shooting to compensate for poor form you will have a hard time on the first shot.
I dont really understand how it worked but for some years as I muddled through trying to teach myself to shoot I found that I could snap shoot at an almost passable level. But it end up being a crutch that let me avoid establishing all a consistent form other than an anchor/release point.
I can see how as long as you have good mechanics, various methods could have good results.
My only point was that if you are learning(especially with out a teacher) be careful of starting with snap shooting because you can end relying on your coordination just enough that you dont build good habits and mechanics.
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How will I pheasant hunt if I ever get the chance. That's why I try to do well at both. Tossed or hanging targets in the wind. Seems to me the overall conditions your in may dictate one way or another.
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I am and I guess always will be a snap shooter.
I tell myself as I draw each arrow to come to a full draw, lock in, then pick that spot and have a clean release.
What occurs for me is when that hand hits my face the arrow is gone, that target panic and I have over the years tried you name it. Blank bale shooting and several other methods and nothing works.
I shoot several times a week and just have fun.
I ama a snap shooter, maybe should change my handle to snap/shooter Old Bill
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I agree with alot of what has been said. I'd say your consistency problem with drawing and holding is that you stop pulling. When you are shooting your normal snapshot you never stop pulling and pull through the shot as you should. When you pull to anchor and pause I'd guess that you are losing back tension which is causing your inconsistencies. It can be done by holding anchor you just need to find a way to maintain the back tension. Just my .02...Mike
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Snap shooting - according to Mssrs Green, LaClair, Hill and Bear - all pretty much the same story and they have it. It's a foreign concept to archers who strive for a mechanical, step by step form and execution. We all start that way to learn. Once you have the form basics down, try putting it all together in an atletic move, like a golf swing or hitting a baseball, and you'll get the idea. That's how most of us "snap-shooters" discovered it. We hit a wall on consistency and groups shooting "static". Then, relaxed and shot a fluid rythm, and bingo, we were shocked by our first 1" group of arrows snuggling together in the same spot. Did I do that? How'd I do that? And, you start learning how to relax and repeat it.
Fluid, dynamic, rythm of execution with correct form (no form elements are left out), all in one smooth motion (generally, more or less, and sometimes we hold)is the good "snap-shooting". As Terry once pointed out - snap shooters tend to aim then draw and execute, and others tend to draw, aim and execute. Keep pulling!
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Originally posted by GroundHunter:
... That's how most of us "snap-shooters" discovered it. We hit a wall on consistency and groups shooting "static". Then, relaxed and shot a fluid rythm, and bingo, we were shocked by our first 1" group of arrows snuggling together in the same spot...
My experience was directly opposite - when I started to pause at anchor for 2-3 seconds my groups tightened up. Obviously many of the pro's don't agree but my HO is that the average shooter would improve his accuracy by anchoring, pausing for 2-3 secs, and releasing.
We will never all agree on that, but then again we don't have to. ;)
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Last week I invited a friend over the house, to shoot my new bow. He had never shot a bow before, so I walked him through the basics. I noticed that after a few shots he could hit as good as myself. I have been shooting a bow for thirty years. I can hit a pie plate at 30 yards most of the time, but I also have some crazy shots also, that Is what bothered me. I am a snap shooter, and I figured I look at the target about 90 percent and my arrow 10 percent. So the next day I decided to look at the target 60 percent and the arrow 40 percent. My groups tightened right up. I still snapped shoot, I just held for a second longer, and glanced at my arrow.
Try it you might like it, It worked for me.
Jeff
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Adirondack...you are correct...we don't have to...because what works for one may not work for the other....and that is OK. Some are better wired to figure the trajectory to the moon, and others are better wired to fly the rockets....that's what makes the world go round.
Some would be better holding, and some would be better by not holding....that I think we can agree on. :thumbsup:
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Howard Hill, Fred Bear and Frank Pearson all learned to shoot in the days before fibreglas backing. So they all learned on simple selfbows, carved from a single piece of wood. Selfbows usually loose power rapidly if held a full draw, so in those days it was standard practice to shoot quickly, snap-shooting or using what was called the slash release. It was necessary to get good arrow speed from the bow.
Those men continued to shoot quickly after they were able to add fibreglas to thier bows. It was natural to them and they were all champion archers.
It is possible nowadays to learn to shoot quickly but the bows no longer require it and most of us can shoot more accurately if we take the time to refine our aim. Some archers for nervous reasons are unable to take that time- thay cannot control their shot sequence and release the arrow whether they are ready or not. This is a serious defect and is also called snap shooting. But it is a different thing from the fine quick shooting the old times greats and some modern archers can do.
And if you intend to learn to shoot moving targets, flyers and fleers, you had better learn to shoot quickly. But if you can take some time to hold on target and perfect your aim, you will likely shoot better. - lbg
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Originally posted by longbowguy:
Some archers for nervous reasons are unable to take that time- thay cannot control their shot sequence and release the arrow whether they are ready or not. This is a serious defect and is also called snap shooting. - lbg
Nope...I disagree..and so did Ron on page one. What you just described is call 'target panic' pure and simple...a mental condition NOT a style of release.
And it does NOT only effect folks that can't reach anchor. I've seen folks hold at full draw for 5 seconds that are terrified to release, and when they do, they panic, gasp for air, jerk their head out of the shot, and their bow arm leaps. Target panic is target panic.
Oh, and I think you'd be better served as a bow hunter to be able to do both, shoot quick if the shot calls for it....and also be able to hold if the shot calls for it. A bowhunter should be able to control the shot and not have the shot control him.
If only more folks would actually get out and practice....
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Holding leads to more target panic for me than snap shooting. I was tuning my daughters 40# recurve this weekend (that I can hold forever)and found myself second guessing my shots and flinching, and my release going to crap, shots were all over the place.Once I got the nock point and brace height set I put that thing away and drug out the 60# predator. It took about 10 to 15 shots to get my form smoothed back out and groups tightened up. Been "snap shooting" since given a fiberglass longbow and three missmatched arrows about 40 years ago so not going to change now.
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I've been snap shooting for 49 years. Didn't start that way, but at age 7 I found that to be the only way to shoot flushed pheasant.
I don't know how something as simple as the correct meaning of "snap shoot", can end up meaning uncontrolled shooting these days.
My eyes aren't quite as good as they use to be, but in my 20's and 30's I could put 5 shots into a 2" target circle before most shooters that hold and aim could execute 2 shots. I would do this anywhere from 30 yards in. And shooting anywhere from 50 to 85# bows. I don't believe this is considered uncontrolled shooting, I believe it is called practice, form and confidence. I could also easily hit the targets if I held at anchor.
But as with shooting a rifle I've always believed the longer you hold the more margin for error.
Terry, Ron, Fred and Howard have it right.
Snap shooting is accomplished by being on target throughout the entire shooting sequence there is no need to stop to aim when you instinctively know you are on target. The second you reach full draw and touch your anchor point there is no reason to hold, to do so is a waste of effort, just release.
To me it would be comparable to trying to aim a baseball in mid-throw when your mind has already done this for you.
This gets me as worked up as those who want to argue that gap shooting isn't instinctive shooting, and that a real instinctive shooter is totally unaware of the presence of the arrow when they shoot. If this is really the case it's know wonder there are so many shooters that have windage and elevation problems, and that think hitting a paper plate at 20 yards is considered good shooting.
I believe what some of you consider to be snap shooting is really being over bowed. You just haven't developed the muscles to hold at anchor or to aim and shoot quickly with good form.
Just my opinion. :archer:
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Bawana
Well stated indeed!
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Well Im killing game very fast and effectively with target panic!
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I think if you watch Charlie Lamb's style in the video forum, I would consider that to be snap shooting....and my guess is he is pretty spot on with it too.
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From Ron LaClair;
"As for the term "Snap shooter", I've been hearing it for 50 years and it was probably used before that. It has "always" been used to refer to someone that shot in one fluid motion, and whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor."
This is my style of shooting, brought on because of the use of longbows. It has always been my understanding that you are not suppose to hold a release/anchor point for very long with the use of a longbow - so this style of snap shooting I taught myself to do once I reached my anchor. I feel it works well for me and my usage of longbows.
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I have only been shooting a trad bow for 2 months. Last week at the trad shoot here in Alabama i shot a round with a guy who said i was snap shooting therefore rushing my shot.To tell you the truth i shot just as well as did.He has been shooting for 30 yrs. It just feels RIGHT for me to anchor and let it fly. For me it doesnt feel like im rushing at all. I have tried to hold for a couple of seconds but im just not as accurate. Love this website learn somthing from it everyday. Thanks.
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i love to snap shoot and hold as well, i belive the advantage of snap shooting is when i hit anchor the target is at its clearest, i sometimes have trouble with bluring after focusing for a long hold, but if i look off the spot a little then find it in the middle of the draw and i will still have it at anchor, this is the method i began using at moving targets seemd to help
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hey chub, i got a similar style of shooting, i pause for a split second, andi barely anchor- but a can't shoot groups for my life when i go into a full anchor. I always thought snap shooting meant a real rapid style of shooting, but i guess i was wrong- haha.good luck, and real quick, you shoooting a longbow or recurve?
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I have to agree with Terry and others. I have experienced target psnic both as a snap shooter and as one who holds at anchor. As a snap shooter I would release prior to being at full draw. I changed my style to that of holding at anchor before releasing to try to fix the TP but it did not fix the problem. The TP just resurfaced in a different form - I could get to full draw, but I could seldom get on target in a controlled manner and release without jerking my bow arm. I tended to hold for 5 or 6 seconds without truly being on target. I would then jerk my arm towards being on target as I released. Poor result as you'd imagine. Lately I have worked hard at being on target for the last third of my draw, getting to anchor, staying aligned and on target, holding for as long as the situation calls for (anywhere between 1/2 second and 5 or 6 seconds) then releasing in a controlled manner with follow through. My shooting has improved considerably. For me the key was being able to be on target and in control, not whether I released quickly or held long. It's been a long road and I have a ways to go. Threads like this can save new shooters a lot of long trips down dead end roads!
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Oh, and I think you'd be better served as a bow hunter to be able to do both, shoot quick if the shot calls for it....and also be able to hold if the shot calls for it. A bowhunter should be able to control the shot and not have the shot control him.
I think this is the most important thing said for hunters. All of my practice lately has been very random as far as holding full draw. I "snap shoot", I draw and hold for 5+ seconds, and everything in between. I want to have complete confidence that I can get my shot off exactly when I need to in the woods...Mike
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:campfire:
Snap shooting is the only way I can hit what I want. When I draw and hold, I can't connect. I draw and when my thumb hits the side of my jaw bone beneath the corner of my mouth I release but continue to draw thru. What works for some and not for others doesn't mean they are doing it right or wrong. It means they have found what works for them. I snap shoot and have put 5 does in the freezer in the last 2 seasons. Is it right or wrong, I don't know but it works for me.
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I am a champion snap-shooter who has also mastered the floating anchor, wavering bow-arm, and disappearing arrow.
Come on. You gotta smile!
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This is my opinion on this subject, when starting to shoot the bow one must ingrain the anchor,bowhand, etc, work on form, work on form, after one shoots for many years and these things are so ingrained into ones mind, the process of the shot can come quicker for alot of shooters, this type of shooting is the END result of hours and hours of practice, when you watch someone who has shot this way for along time it looks like ballet not wrestling. Just smooth beautiful motion. But I caution this is usually the end result not the starting result.
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I think it's great with threads like these, about shooting style. Now, I haven't been shooting for that long now (around 3 months, maybe a little more), and from the start I shot instinctively, releasing upon the anchor. Then lately I started holding to trust less on my instincts, and put more weight on my aim. It really helped me fixing the goofs that sometimes occur when shooting instinctively (without being extremely experienced), like wrong shoulder position, dropping the bow arm, not having quite the right stance, et cetera. Now, when I snap shoot (or whatever you may want to call it), I sure don't feel as safe or secure, as when I anchor and aim for 1-2 seconds before the release.
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I may want to add that I still enjoy shooting instinctively, and I'm still having great results with bows in lower poundages. It's not as easy with my new bow though, since I ain't used to the heavy poundage yet.
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Just my 2 cents, I think there are touch shooters, and then snappers , its easy to tell the difference . A good touch shooter pulls everso touches the same anchor point and hit what they aim at, good back tension. Indians did it, snappers cant hit crap and most are over bowed and cant hit the barn wall.And probably do have issues with TP....I hate that word!!! :scared: :saywhat: Its easy to sallow ur pride start light , deleope good shootin g habits , and work up in weight , less chance of injury as well. Quality shooting not quanity... :thumbsup:
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dang cant edit , spelling stunk, sorry