Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Wmangham on September 15, 2009, 06:41:00 PM
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Hello fellas it is the new guy in the gang and I was wanting to get some good advice on which would be a better choice for everyday shooting. Ever since I have been shooting I have used the back tension release and it has worked well for me but now I have this problem of holding back to long and not concentrating. I just want to try something new, which is the better choice? :help:
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My shot placement is far superior when I pick a spot, lift the bow and consciously draw all the way through the arrow leaving the bow - "back tension". There is deteriorating chance of hitting my spot the longer I think about the variables. In other words, it all comes together when I trust my muscles and the 'feel' of the draw and falls apart when I over analyze.
Get out there and just put the arrow where you're looking. Seriously, that's it.
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Rick Welch favors the dead release, and Rod Jenkins favors more of a dynamic followthrough, where your hand ends up moving back after releasing the arrow. Both are champion shots, and both have videos out that you can compare.
"Dead release vs. back tension" is a misnomer. Any good shooter, whether he uses a dead release or uses a more dynamic release, will absolutely maintain back tension throughout the shot. Any collapsing of back tension, which is evidenced by a creeping forward of the string hand at full draw, will ruin the shot. The difference between a dead release and a dynamic release is that the forces between the bow and the back exactly balance in a dead release, while the force of the back gradually increases through release with a dynamic release.
My own opinion, after studying both methods, is that it is easier to maintain back tension if I am gradually increasing back tension until the arrow is released. If I am gradually increasing back tension, my back tension is not likely to collapse. If I'm trying to hold a specific amount of back tension, it could go either way without me really being aware of it. But the dead release certainly works well for Rick Welch, and many of his students.
Both Rick Welch and Rod Jenkins believe that more accuracy can be achieved by holding at full draw for a second or two than by releasing as soon as full draw is reached. If you're having a problem releasing after holding for a second or two, that may be a type of target panic, and you might be better off addressing that problem rather than trying to change something else.
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It's hard for me to differentiate between the two. I find that if I don't feel like I'm slowly increasing the back tension while I hold for that second, the arrow will creep forward. Can't seem to get "dead".
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Seems like if during the shot you focus on developing your sight picture (i.e, concentrate on the spot) and have a decent repeatable anchor then the after-mechanics of how you release the string won't much matter.
Maybe sometimes we over-analyze.
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"Rick Welch favors the dead release, and Rod Jenkins favors more of a dynamic followthrough"
From the video clips I've seen of Ricky he hasn't got a "Dead release" it's just not as dynamic as Rods.
A Dead release is where the hand doesn't move at all and it doesn't really work, best way to test this theory is shoot a doz arrows with Dead Release and a doz with a more dynamic release at 50 yards and see the difference, at 15-20 yards you can get away with a lot of form errors like Dead Release.
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I am not sure that a dead release is really dead still. I tried an experiment to see. My release is pretty dead still. I backed up against my garage door and had my right elbow (I'm right handed) about two inches from the door. If my release is dead I won't touch the door, right? Well I banged the door with my elbow, but my hand came back to my anchor point and, except for hitting my elbow on the door, my release felt as dead still as ever.
Maybe the so-called dead release is an illusion. I know my dead release moves and then returns to the anchor. I thought I was being still, but that is not the case. At release my mind is on the target and I don't feel the release until my hand is back to the anchor point, but I do in fact move.
What does this experiment prove? Just that what I thought was happening wasn't what was actually happening. Interesting...
Of course, I am not going to alter anything as long as I am shooting OK.
Joe
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According to Rick Welch a subconscious release with good back tension = perfect release and follow through. If you are mentally thinking about releasing all kinds of bad things can happen- plucking, collapsing movement etc.
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Either release requires back tension. Like Dave has said above the pull through release happens more naturally when you gradually increase back tension. That being said I have seen many great shooters shoot with great accuracy using a dead release. A good example of this is Ron LaClair in the first Masters of the Barebow. He uses a dead release and is very accurate out to 50-60 yards.
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I'm a fairly novice shooter but when I don't keep my hand, or thumb, against my face at release it becomes a hand flinging session. I have had to consciously tell my self this summer during practice the following mantra: "Keep the bow arm still and touch my face." The bow arm comment is pretty self explainatory due to dropping that arm but the touching the face simply means that once I release the arrow, at minimum, the tip of the thumb has to stay connected to my cheek for best results.
Granted, if I were to condition myself to allow my hand continue back at release to touch my shoulder it may accomplish the same result but I've not tried that. This works for me to keep my form and tension together at the shot.
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It's generally a mistake to try to make your string hand do anything on release, or to try to make it not do anything, as in the case of holding it against your face to avoid flinging your hand.
You should use your string hand as an indication of how well you are releasing the arrow. Just notice what it does; don't try to stop it from doing it. Stopping your string hand from doing whatever it does just masks the symptoms.
You should be able to hold your string hand totally away from your face, as Rick Welch recommends, and either have it stay (more or less) in one place, or move backwards. If it's doing anything other than that, it probably means you're not coming to full draw, such that your forearm is in line with the arrow viewed from above, not maintaining back tension while you're holding, or that you're anticipating your release and not getting a clean, subconscious release.
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Holding the string hand locked against the face at moment of release is what I consider dead release and I see a lot of it around.
Anticipating the release is the next big error and normally go's hand in hand with the Dead release because if your just holding against your face you have to trigger the release somehow. It may feel\\look good in practice but once you add a little pressure on yourself to score the dead release will in most cases just fall apart make your shooting look terrible.
The 'Anchor' is a misleading Archery phrase, really it's just a momentary (few seconds) pause or touch point on the face as your pulling through the shot.
Good post McDave
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I have to go with Zetabow on what is the way to go. A very long time ago in the 70's one of the best trad shooters I shoot with always said the shot sequence was that as you draw you draw thru the shot sequence that is when you lock in your ancor you continue to draw and then release. I find I get the the shots as I try to use the kiss
archery for trad archery and that is
" KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID ''
The more I try to make shooting a bow a engineering process the more I shoot poorly.
pick a spot, aim, release
seems to me a simple way to master our art of archery.
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draw through the shot. Some seem to creep with a dead anchor...PR
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Originally posted by zetabow:
if your just holding against your face you have to trigger the release somehow.
Whether you're holding against your face or pulling through you have to do the same thing - relax your fingers so the string slips out without being jerked or plucked. The choice between "dead" and "dynamic" boils down to which method allows you most easily to do as close as humanly possible to exactly the same thing on each shot.
Paraphrasing Rick Welch slightly, you can release with your teeth and learn to be accurate if you use a consistent method to make each shot.
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Originally posted by dragon rider:
Originally posted by zetabow:
if your just holding against your face you have to trigger the release somehow.
Whether you're holding against your face or pulling through you have to do the same thing - relax your fingers so the string slips out without being jerked or plucked. The choice between "dead" and "dynamic" boils down to which method allows you most easily to do as close as humanly possible to exactly the same thing on each shot.
Paraphrasing Rick Welch slightly, you can release with your teeth and learn to be accurate if you use a consistent method to make each shot. [/b]
If you’re just holding against your face for a dead release with no proper back tension, you will not be consistent or accurate. The release is not an action in itself it’s a consequence of a relaxed Bow arm\\hand and increasing back tension. If you need to have ‘Release’ flash through your conscious or subconscious mind to be able to release it WILL have a negative impact on your consistency and accuracy..
The more pressured the shot the Dead Release becomes even more inconsistent.
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I would suggest getting a book or DVD that was put out by John Schulz, "Hitting Them Like Howard Hill". He will explain the method used by Howard Hill, who was the best shot ever, and the best I have seen. Fred Bear used a very similar style. Back tension is important, but holding on target is not; the arrow is gone at full draw. See is believing, shooting this way is enjoyable, and very accurate.
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[/QUOTE]I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.
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Yep seems so.
If you read one of my previous posts I explained that was talking about people who lock their Bowhand (like an Anchor) and try and hold it locked on face at moment of release, most are not using back tension and most of them either creep, collapse or fly the hand out sideways.
Maintaining steady push\\pull until release happens does work to a degree but can still open the Archer up to inconsistencies.
shoot straight :)
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OK, we are in agreement; whether you use dead or dynamic release, you're not going to succeed consistently without proper back tension and string creep, draw collapse or letting your bow hand fly around will lead to inconsistencies. Looking at a number of really good shots, I don't think it makes much, if any, difference, where your string hand goes once the shot is away; it's where it goes until the string has left your fingers that matters.
Good shooting; have fun.
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Originally posted by dragon rider:
I don't think it makes much, if any, difference, where your string hand goes once the shot is away; it's where it goes until the string has left your fingers that matters.
Good shooting; have fun.
Agree,
Rod Jenkins has a very dynamic release and works very well for him but it's not for me or a lot of other people. If you can load the shoulders and keep string arm\\fingers relaxed the back tension pretty much works on it's own without forcing it. Rod made his release work for him, a while back I played around with a Oly type dynamic release and it just didn't feel natural. I figured that because Oly shooters anchor much lower it's easier to engage back muscles and make the shot dynamic compared to the Trad archers higher anchor, better for aiming but harder on back tension.
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With the two anchor release as John Schulz teaches, one does not get a dead release. It does not fly way behind the head. Actually if done properly, there is no need for the drawing hand to come more than the length of the releasing fingers. Nothing is lost in the draw length and you will still get a hard release, getting the most efficiency from your setup. I have seen cases, where the shooter that is intending to follow through with the drawing hand coming way back, starts moving the bow prior to the release. Although, there are plenty of videos showing Hill pulling completely through his release as well, even though he taught otherwise.
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Rod Jenkin's description of the shot sequence and release portion made a lot of sense to me, and I sought out his coach, Len Cardinale, to help me as well. The whole release thing is a non-issue in that it's a non-action. What is needed is a cue that occurs after the arrow clears the bow. Touch the shoulder is a common one, and I found it works for me. Before I started that, Len quickly noted that I was just letting go of the string, without a conclusion to the shot.
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Originally posted by NJWoodsman:
The whole release thing is a non-issue in that it's a non-action. What is needed is a cue that occurs after the arrow clears the bow. Touch the shoulder is a common one, and I found it works for me. Before I started that, Len quickly noted that I was just letting go of the string, without a conclusion to the shot.
NJ this description of the release being a'non-action' is one of the points I was trying to get across in previous posts. I've tried the more dynamic release Rod uses and it worked great but had trouble making it work when under tourney pressure, I'm more comfortable touching neck just below the ear, I dont think 'release' I visulize pulling through to my touch point, keeps everything relaxed and fluid and makes the shot very consistent.
Working very well for me and had some great international IFAA\\Fita tourney results this year.
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Pull thru the shot. I to am a fairly new archer and can say that having tried both I could not stop slipping forward on a dead release. After reading Byron Fergusons book, watching the Masters of the Barebow series of videos, and some coaching from guys at the local archery shot, I fixed a couple of form issues and the pull thru release really improved my form and tightened my groups.
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I think if you think to much about the release your not thinking about your target.I think you should worry more about a solid archor and pull though the shoot.people tend to over do the back tenion and get sloppy pulling away from the face and off the body .and the dead release tend to creep after a long day of shooting I tire to reach archor and keep enough tenion on the string so that it pulls out of my fingers easy and im not thinking about getting off the string
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Does anyone extend the bow arm, or bow shoulder at the time of release? Whether your back is pushing on the bow arm or drawing back on the string arm, there is usually a continual increase in the draw length during the time of release. This eliminates the problem of slipping forward at time of release. When you get to the right spot the arrow leaves.
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I dont extend my bow arm but it is pushing into the target, when I increase back tension for release I cant do it from the shoulders for some reason I just cant feel it working, so I imagine pushing back from elbow the same way I use the Foremaster, works well for me and important thing is it still keeps the forearm and fingers relaxed.
When i first started out I used to pull through from string hand and found fingers and Forearm would tense up and the shot wasn't consistent.
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when the shot "happens" i really can't tell if back or dead release. if i try to make either it just feels poor-lose concetration no form.
what works best for me is to let shot happen from draw thu to arrow on target.
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I have been trying to work on my back tension and feel I had another break through today while shooting a 56" bow I pick up here on the classifieds.
It's a hybrid longbow and much lighter mass weight than the swifts and bears I've been shooting. I wasn't doing real well with it and was trying different things. I had tried many times to use my back muscles and get a more dynamic type release and it clicked today. I now pull to anchor and while I focus on the target I increase back tension until release. I'm getting a smoother release, good accuracy and my draw hand automaticaly comes straight back upon release. I had to try to think about touching my shoulder after the release prior to today.
Now if I can repeat it the next time I shoot! It seems that every time I think I've got it, something goes south the next shooting session
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Brad, what you're describing sounds perfect. Once you do it, you can do it again, but its not necessarily going to automatically happen the next time you go out to shoot. If it's not happening for you, just keep shooting until it works, trying to repeat the shot sequence that worked for you before. I've found that it's much easier to get proper back tension and a dynamic release if I stand close to the target. Probably this is because I don't have to worry about where the shot is going to go.
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Dave,
Thanks for the advice. I felt like I knew what I needed to do for this but for whatever reason I couldn't seem to make it happen until today. Now I know what you fellas have been talking about!
I have been going through the good days, bad days in my shooting and this will go along way towards fixing that.
Now, if I can work out the other 999 problems with my shooting form.
Thanks
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When I pull my bow to anchor (middle finger to the corner of my mouth), my hand relaxes to such an extent, that just the the thought of releasing will let it go. My shot window is when my sight picture says "Now" That could be anywhere from the time my finger hits the corner of my mouth to as much as 3-5 seconds. My sight picture is rarely what I want it when I hit full draw. I usually come to a dead (relaxed) draw. But I also draw through when my correct sight picture coincides with my finger hitting the corner of my mouth.