Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Hit-or-Miss on December 14, 2009, 08:03:00 PM
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I have shot one over, two under for over 3 decades, as it was how I saw Fred Bear do it in pictures. Recently, after reading various posts about different pros shooting 3 under (the "new" style), I decided to give it a try. I had always heard and read of this method of aiming as the "Apache draw", or "gun barreling", not a new style at all, quite old in fact. New name perhaps, but not a new method of shooting.
Anyhow, I tried it in recent weeks, and although it felt odd and took some getting used to, after a few shots, I can see why this style is now popular! In half an hour of practice, I was blistering crab apples at 18 yards with blunts! Now the snow and Ice have hit, but as soon as I get a warm day, I can't wait to get back outside and stump shoot some more utilizing the Apache draw. In fact, I might just dedicate 2010 to mastering this style, since I do appear to be more accurate.
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:thumbsup:
Good for you man! Welcome to our world of 3-under shooters. Glad you gave it a fair shake and decided to stay with it.
Lots of people try it out for a dozen or so shots and give it up because it feels funny. That's too bad though, because they don't know what they're missing.
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Hello all,
I have tried three under or "Apache Style" and it is indeed neat. But have you seen the movie "The Oddysey" with Armon Asanti or whatever his name is? In the movie he has this beautiful recurve made of what appears to be horns (in the Illiad and Oddysey by Homer it says it was made of horns of some animal, I forget just now what). Anyway, at the end of the movie when it is time for a reckoning against the people who had taken over his home and terrorized his wife and son, he shot them all with that bow, and I noticed he was shooting "Apache" Style! That surprised me. I figure you have to be an experienced archer to even know what that is, much less shoot it.
After I asked around and investigated Armond is indeed an avid archer and has bows, and in fact kept the bow he used in the movie. Or so I was told. But I reckon that is his preferred style is the three under or Apache Style.
Just figured y'all'd find that interesting. But you ought to watch that movie if for no other reason but just to watch that awesome scene where he shoots all those bad guys with that bow at the end. And uses Apache Style to boot!
Later,
Freebooter
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I tried 3 under about 8 years ago.
After 3 arrows I was sold on the Idea,
don't plan on going back anytime soon.
I think that the 30" draw had a little to do with it, no more finger pinch.
Scott
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it has always been my impression that the bow had to be tillered for three fingers under.
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Rick - generally not. In most cases if any adjustment is needed, it can be accomplished by moving the nock points on the string - btw 3 under is easier (at least for me) if you use two nock points.
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I might try it again here fore long.
FB
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Interesting that in messing with a bow that can have the tillered adjusted (DAS) the best setting for 3 under is dead even. No tiller at all. Nock setting is 3/4 above.
Go figure huh???
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Dragon Rider
Did you have to move your nock point up or down and how much?
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Is there any benefit to shooting 3 under with higher poundage bows? I have shot 3 under in the past but found it to be much louder at release than one up two down. I will have to give it a go again.
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I love 3 under but the noise is an issue. When I really focus on putting 80% of the pressure on my top finger, the bow gets ptetty quiet. 3/4 nock helps too.
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same questions as Doc Pain & Whiskey Tango
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I tried it for a while years ago and I found that the pressure of my three fingers under the arrow make it slowly force my little brass knock point up and out of posistion. I finally had to put two next to each other to keep it from being forced to slide up the string over time. I went back to split.
FB
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And here I thought I was the only one left who used the term "Apache Draw".
I've shot 3 Under so long that Split Finger doesn't feel right. I doubt I could shoot split anymore. I don't aim down the shaft though. my focus is on the target and the spot on it I want to hit.
As far as I'm concerned, 3 Under is a "stronger" draw that allows a cleaner release, and no finger pinch speaks for itself.
Rather than using brass pinch on nock points I use .026" Fast Flite serving to tie in my nock points, they are +3/8 to +1/2 inch on all my recurves.
Shooting bows tillered for Split with a 3 Under release puts more stress on the lower limb so they are more noisy when shot that way. I had one bow built tillered for 3 Under, it was it was more quiet than my other recurves, but not more accurate...
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I have just tried 3 Finger Under and love it. Tighter pattern within about 1/2 hours practice.
But, I am having trouble figuring out my anchor point and sight window. What are the recommendations?
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Cant help you with sight window and i far from an expert but i use to anchor my top finger (pointer) touching the back of my cheek bone about an inch below the back of my eye when i shot 3 under. This was where i had to anchor to get good back tension. Groups were good but my release must have been far from perfect because the noise was about double that of the split release.
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Matt,
Thumbnail side of your thumb on your earlobe, and touch your nose to your cockfeather. That makes a consistant draw length, as well as a consistant anchor point.
Winterhawk1960
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All that noice is because the bow is not tillered for 3 under. There is much more stress on the bottom limb of the bow and due to that it is not a ballanced shot. You will get much more consistant shots with a bow in balance (correctly tillered).
It might help to move the nock slightly higher. You will have to sacrifice arrow flight for accurate shooting. The same thing happens with string walking whree the objective is to hit the target and not so much about the arrow flight as such.
Imo there is a differance between hunting and target shooting. Target shooting it more to get the point of the arrow to hit the bulls eye, irrespective of arrow flight. Hunting needs more penetration and this needs a pure and balanced arrow flight.
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Interesting thread, being really picky, the bow ought to be tillered for your drawing style. The reason a bow can be a little noisy when 3-fingers under is used is because the bow was likely made with a symetrically balanced tiller assuming a split-finger draw and thereby anchored dead centre of the string with an even weight distributed throughout the length of the bow. 3-under actually lessens the flexion of the upper bow limb because you are holding below the central nock, so when it is released it returns a fraction of a second quicker than the lower limb, that time differential produces a double 'slap' from the returning bowstring and thereby more noise and a little more handshock. That said, this really is being picky, in general terms there will be little overall effect on most top-flight bows. For an extreme example of an asymetric tiller, look at a Japanese Kyudo 'yumi' bow
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What should my knock point be for shooting 3 under? I have always shot my recurve 3 under, and I have my knock point set up with the tip of the arrow pointing up slitley is this right at all?
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Finding the right nocking point is a matter of trial and error. Bear in mind that if your arrow tip is higher than your nock, the arrows will fly higher than line of sight & vice-a-versa. Generally the nock will be a fraction higher than the point. A good starting point is to look at the arrow on the rest. The nock should be slightly high so the arrow angles down. The angle will look greater on short brace height bows because the string is so close to the rest. Then use your square to record where your nocking point is located on the string. That will be your starting point. Adjust by very small amounts if required, making notes of the measurement as you go is the easiest way to ensure you don't get muddled.
Try bare-shaft testing (no fletches) to identify at what angle your arrows hit the target,this will tell you whether your nocking point needs to be raised or lowered until they hit horizontally. Bareshaft is best shot at close range, approx 10yds or so. Eventually you will tune the bow to it's optimum by deciding how far you pack out the shelf (if you have a centre or past centre cut bow)as well as identifying what the best bracing height is, and finally ensuring that you match your arrows to the bow, spine, weight etc...
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I switched after not being able to get a consistent anchor and developed a ear devastating case of Target Panic. I installed a clicker and focused on my form. Changing to three under has eliminated finger pinch for me as well. I do not intentionally look down the arrow, I acquire my target, focus and draw back until I hear the click. Nock height is pretty easy to figure out, the above posts have hit the nail on the head. Stick with it, you will be very pleased with the results.
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I switched nearly 15 years ago and now it is hard to get a clean release over and under.
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Does nock point change or stay the same ? ..Im shooting way low..
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The nocking point should remain in the same place, once you have set the bow up correctly. That said, if you change limb weight, arrow weight or draw length, the nocking point may need to be adjusted again. Use a bow square to record your current nock height, then make minor adjustments until your arrows fly and hit horizontally. Low shooting can be caused by lots of different things, arrow weight/spine, bad form, drawing short, big sight picture. Try and get somebody to video your draw and release, diagnostics are easier when you can slow down the action and watch. It's quite scary to find out how many bad habits you didn't know you had!
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David, expect to impact low, my first 6 shots were in the dirt at 15 yards. Stick with it and they will come up. Been shooting split 30 plus years and tried 3 under last summer to see what all the scuttle butte was about. I haven't looked back. Just for giggles I shot, a few arrows split finger, once season was over, and shot way high. enuff of that.
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I switched last April after 40+ yrs of split. I use a piece of duct tape to find my nocking point...PR
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I have shot both ways for the last year or so and here are my impressions. 3 under is noisier on my bows(all tillered for split).3 under is very good for shooting under 40 yds. Split finger , for me , is better for consistent windage.If I draw the bow back with 3 under as far as I do with split finger it will move the rear of the arrow too far to the right ( right handed shooter)so I have to draw shorter.This is due to the round shape of my face and may not pertain to others.If I shoot 3 under with a tab...the string sometimes hits my nose.( OUCH!!!).All that being said I am trying to commit to all split finger.Our club still has some field shots that are about 60 to 70 yds and there is nothing more fun than watching an arrow arc into the target at that range!! I just can't do that consitently with 3 under but I've gotten pretty good at it with split finger. Oh one more thing about the difference between the two. 3 under usually changes the dynamic spine of your arrows.For me, it make my arrows weaker. I don't think I would notice this with fletched arrows but it's obvious with bare shafts.
Sorry to ramble but I just wanted to share my $.02
Ike
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i also have just recently switched to 3 under. I was having a heck of a time trying to get my arrows tuned so i just tried it for sh#$% and giggles and had all of my arrows touching from 15 yards on my first three shots. I guess the bow might be tillered for 3 under. I noticed no difference in the noise of the bow. I am now hooked on apache draw!!
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Guys try dropping the third finger and shoot 2 fingers under. I've been doing it for years and love the release it gives me. less stuff on the string is less stuff to screw up with. That third finger is just along for the ride any way.
matt
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I will give that a try tonight Matt and let you know how it works for me
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Gone Apache and doubt I will go back to split.
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Tried 2 under last night and just did not have the right feel for the wieght that i pull.
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Nate,
Shoot what is right for you. I shoot it up to 65 lbs and have a very slow deliberate release.
I also have a very large pair of hands ;-)
Matt
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I am a believer in "apache style"...as a life long "split finger" it took some convencing. This past weekend I decided to give apache an honest try and the results were pretty remarkable. I constructed a leather tab that is specific and I keep getting better results the more I practice.
Don't be afraid to experiment...
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Originally posted by Matt_Potter:
Guys try dropping the third finger and shoot 2 fingers under. I've been doing it for years and love the release it gives me. less stuff on the string is less stuff to screw up with. That third finger is just along for the ride any way.
matt
Hey Matt, thanks for the prompt as I was reading and wondering about this myself. I am saving for a lighter poundage bow to start trying this very thing.
I am currently and have always beed a split finger shooter but am intrigued by the 5-40 yard accuracy of the non split fingered faternity. I think it WOULD be cleaner and less torque on the bottom limb. One excellant shooter I am familiar with in Oz was 3 fingers under but over time evolved into 2...as you say, the ring finger just became redundant. As long as the poundage is comfortable, but that is essential regardless of the release style.
I also want to give string walking a try... in the past the feel has put me off but more so the noise. To a silent split finger shooter, 3 under sounds like the bow de-laminating but proper tuning will help. I am looking at a Trad Tech or
Dalaa bow to give me that adjustability.
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When I started shooting I shot split finger and shot pretty good. I switched to 3 under 5 years ago and have shot much better. I tried several anchors but the one that's most comfortable to me is my index finger in the corner of my mouth. 3 under for me just feels more comfortable and my release is better.
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2 fingers under dosen't work for me but3 does.John
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Raging Water i shoot apache and always have even with compound i anchor with my middle finger on my i tooth as far as the sight window it is fussy to me i just look at were i want my arrow to hit
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Tried three under about three months ago.Now it tightend up my groups to about the size of a sofball. :bigsmyl: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Sorry , Thats at twenty yards. :wavey: