Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: 52Mag on February 21, 2010, 03:41:00 PM
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The sun is shining its 61 degrees and its time to start shooting. Not once last summer did I keep up with Chris Hill or Lon Scott on the range and I would like to see that change this year. As I go through my practice sessions I will keep trad gang members posted on what I discover helps me put my arrows in the center. The first thing I found out is that my fingers are weak. To correct this problem I will squeeze a ball on the way to work for the next month. 20 minutes a day works wonders for finger strength. Please post what you have found helps you get in tune for the spring bear hunt or 3-D shoots.
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I'll pull my bow back, Normal then switch hands and pull it back again… I'll do this about 20 times then switch, repeat the 20 times with the other hand. This helps me with Back tension.
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This I found to be very helpful. When I begin shooting in spring I keep a log and write in it on the days that I was really shooting well. How did I feel as my arrows were going in the center. Was it a great bow arm today? Was it my solid anchor? What I find is that after two months I have 12 or more entries about how I felt on the days that I shot my best. This log will help everyone who tries it.
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Have you tried taking a deeper hook? --relieves alot of the pressure, as opposed to a shallow hook.
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I just never quit shooting. I shoot almost everyday, sometimes every other. I don't shoot too many arrows maybe 30. If the weather is nice I shoot outside, if not I can shoot 14 yds max in the basement. I also have big machine shed that is 30 yds max so that helps too. The key for me is to never let my shooting become unfamiliar to me. 10 yrs ago I used to take long breaks from shooting. Took me lots of shooting to get back to a point where I felt I was shooting good. Therefore, I never quit shooting.
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For me, it's like peeling an onion. I learn what there is on one level, and then that opens up a whole new level to learn. My current layer of the onion is learning to relax all the parts of my body that aren't actually needed to make the shot: my drawing forearm, my drawing hand and fingers except for the tips used to hold the string, keeping my shoulders relaxed and down, my bow arm other than the muscles needed to hold the bow, my bow hand except for a finger and thumb needed to keep the bow from falling. Then there is an overall effort to keep tension out of my body through breathing.
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Chuck
The deep hook is very important,the only way to grip the string as far as I am concerned. You know that all the Olympic archers use the deep hook. It also helps when you are shooting a bow of 60# or more.( The deep hook that we are talking about is when you place the string behind the first joint of fingers of your drawing hand.) In the mid 50 t's Rube Powell shot with the string in the second joint and he was World Champion and unbeatable for five years. I shot with Rube at the Nationals in Watkins Glenn NY. in 1962 he was a joy to watch. Fred Anderson shot with him ever summer in California.
Steve
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Heck,I just started using the "McDave" breathing method over the last three days.
Made more difference to my shooting "in a very good way" than anything else I've tried in the last few years.
Three days ago I had this ocassional flinch at full draw,,havn't seen it since I started this "breathing" stuff.
ED.
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One thing that helped me is I kept detailed notes of all the tourneys I did.
Info like, how I was feeling on the day, weather and terrain conditions, scores related to top score or division shooting above me.
Made notes about what went right or if wrong how I fixed the problem, I was amazed how I saw patterns in my perfomance and identified weak areas of my shooting, I was able to work more on these areas to improve my game. I also noticed sometimes the same problem would come back 6-8 months later and instead of trying a load of diffrent things to fix the problem I just checked my notes and got back on track very quickly without messing around with my form too much.
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Steve, your posts are scaring me. Are you trying to return to those 290 scores you posted a few years ago?
I like to keep notes and scores of my shooting sessions, but I have this terrible habit of switching bows almost every day. It's not that I'm unhappy with my performance (which could be lots better), I just enjoy shooting them all.
Also, wish you were here...Brent Okita has challenged me to another 300 round this afternoon...buck a point.
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I dont have to keep scores anymore some Archer records scores from every archer\\target and posts them on association website, when I kept notes myself a few years back I found it a great way to develop my shooting.
shoot straight
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To score and compete with another archer can have a positive effect when a pressure filled shot comes along. Brent and Lon are in a higher stakes game than I care to shoot in. A dollar a point in the 300 round. $ 25.00 could change hands very easy. Several years when I shot in Vegas the scoring was inside out. This meant that your arrow had to be totally inside the three inch white spot. All arrows that touched the lower scoring line were counted as the lower score. My advice to both of you is to not drop your bow until the arrow has hit the target, also keep looking at the spot through your sight window until after the arrow hits. In addition to creating a better follow through, you will be better able to under stand what went well on the shot and what phase of the shot could have been executed better if any.
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I guess reading all the stuff here is a great start, I have decided to really step it up a level this year, I will stay tuned. Thanks
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The one thing that I would like to change about my shooting is snap shooting. The problem is that I shoot pretty good this way and am scared to change as it might mess me up. I wish I could hold the way 52Mag does. If I could do that I don't think I would ever miss. Some day I will have to commit and change my shooting style. I will also be able to gain an inch or two in draw length if I do it.
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cch,
Papa Bear, greatest bowhunter ever :knothead:
I agree...don't fix it if it ain't broke.
p.s. I chickened out on the buck a point event, but we still had a friendly wager. Oh, I already forgot who won. :rolleyes:
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I'm amazed by the number of people that don't shoot with a sequence or countdown. If you don't use one, I guarantee there's nothing that could help you more.
If you don't have a coach and it's late summer your better off shooting with the exact same poor form every shot, than shooting with perfect form 50% of the time. And a countdown will help you do that. Whether your form is good or bad.
Bowmania
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May you explain the countdown more?
Thanks
Bob
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I would like to hear more about the countdown also. I think the best way to shoot is with a clicker of some sort so you don't anticipate your shot.
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Snap shooters: There really is nothing wrong with snap shooting. The fact is for hunting what could be better a archer who takes one second to shoot,or one who takes three. Most archers take 2 1/2 seconds from the start of there draw to release. That said; It is easier for a archer to go from holding there anchor for a 1/2 second to snap shooting then to go the other direction. The issue is time what do you do with extra second. ( this is were some archers say the longer I hold the arrow the more time I have to goof up the shot.) I believe that a snap shooter who wants to change there style and hold longer can begin by getting a bow 10 or 15 pounds lighter then the weight they are shooting. Then put a sight on the bow and shoot a bunch of arrows at 10 or fifteen yards. I would shoot at a 4 to 5 inch spot.
after a week or so switch to bare bow using the same thought pattern that you used with the sight to place your arrows in the center. What you will discover is that your arrow groups are tighter when you shoot bare bow than with the sight. Shooting with a sight is a lot more work.( To all of you Trad Ganger's who do not know Chris Hill he is well known as one of the best bare bow archers in the state of Washington.)
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Fred wasn't a snap shooter,,he simply shot fast.
I think there's a big difference.
Snap shooting,the fualt,,fast shooting but in control,,big difference.
I practice shooting fast,,but I'm not that good at it.
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Kassai Lajos is the best speed shooter in the world for combined speed and accuracy.
I remember watching video clips of his horse school in Hungary, rows of archers practicing draw and release (no Bow in hand) it reminded me of my martial arts school, to shoot with Kassai's skill takes practiced discipline, most of the snap shooters I've met in Field\\3D tourneys just dont understand the concept and it's just ugly to watch.
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Please let us not get off the topic hear. We are trying to have a form that helps archers improve there shooting skills or are wanting to try something new. When Trad Gang members say they snap shoot we can believe that it is by choice. Dennis Kamstra,Dennis Behn,Kiko Tovar, Chris Hill, Paul Schafer and Bob Savage are some of the great ones that I have had the pleasure to shoot and hunt with. CCH suggested a clicker I agree a excellent tool to help the archer who wants to come to full draw and then get into his back tension to explode through the shot. Black hawk used one for six weeks then took it off and out shot the seven guys in our group. Three Rivers sells a good one.
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CCH I like that pulling the arrow back until the feather it hits your noise. At least you know that you came to full draw.
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If you ever double post or in my case triple post you can edit the post by clicking on the PAPER and Pencil Icon, It will take you to a edit square and you can edit and repost. Wow I learn something every day. Thanks Blackhawk.
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Please let us try to keep this forum to aid our fellow archers to improve there shooting skills. CCH is right on with that clicker aid. The clicker makes you come back to full draw and use your back tension to pull through the shot. Blackhawk used one for 6 weeks last spring then he took it off and out shot all of the seven archers in our group the following weekend. Three Rivers Archery sells a good one.
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I shoot about 200 to 300 arrows every day or every other day. Life has to come in there somewhere. I will shoot about 150 or so in the morning and then the rest in the afternoon. Keeps me in good shape and is quiet fun. I try to get the wife involved but she out shots me sometimes! I have to tell her that!! hehe
Joshua
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Another way to shoot like you are using a clicker is to set up you feathers to be about a 1/4" from your nose when you get to anchor and slowly increase tension in your back and when the feather touches your nose release. Joel Turner has been using this method for a few years now and is an amazing shot. It is legal in all shoots unlike the clicker. Some people have a way of getting stuck at anchor when shooting clickers and are not able to make it click. Joel has a way to help that. He says something like "KEEP PULLING" over and over in his head until the click. This will keep your brain controlling your muscles and it helps with anxiety and will help when the pressure is on.
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I've been using the string on eyebrow, it just touches and I learnt to increase pull to a certain pressure which is my virtual clicker, I was able to shoot some great IFAA National and European Field\\Hunter records using this method during 2009, plus a Fita 3D world and IFAA European Field title.
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Well I broke down and put the clicker on my bow. I made a decision to give it a try through the summer to see if I can improve my shooting. I dropped down to a 40# bow. My groups yesterday are about 3 times the size of normal. I am going to shoot with Joel today and see if he can give me some pointers.
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I keep notes. I shoot everyday or most of them. 150 arrows is common in a day. I did 400 or so yesterday. Ice pack time. I shot in 20 deg. days a lot this winter out doors. When It got too bad I shot in the barn short distance and just worked on release. Right now I am working even more on getting rid of more string arm tension, release, and consistent draw length. I find that I overdraw a little and that messes with my release. I put white tape on my arrows at the correct draw just to have a visual reference in my vision to help with proper release time. I also find I can feel it catch the rest on my calf hair. It is like a clicker, but I don't have anything stuck to my bow. Iam also playing with different finger pressures and with the sting in my eyebrow. Taking more notes.
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Picked up a new dozen 2016 this weekend. I shoot with 4- 5 inch feathers. About 1/2 way through my session I was really hitting the spot . What I found out was that when I anchored very tight (hard ) to my face my mind liked that, then I concentrate on the spot and the shot would happen by it self. I looked back at my notes and three times last year I made a note that I was stacking my arrows in the middle of the target when I anchored hard against my face.
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That's great Steve. I had a lesson with Joel the other day and I am rebuilding my entire shot. We changed my stance to a more upright style instead of hunching. I am able to pull through the clicker more easily and I picked up two inches in draw. My groups are not quite as good as I would like but I am learning. I will shoot with the clicker probably until after Moses Lake and then transition to the feather to nose technique. Then I can start adding weight and get back to shooting mid 50's.
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I just have to give a thank you to ( xtrema 312 ). I am doing a bible study talk 3/24/10 for AWANA kids age 5 to 8. Was going to read them the story in 1 st Samuel 20 18 to 23 about David and Jonathan shooting arrows, now I can add Genesis 21/20.
Thanks Todd
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Steve, It's great seeing you post on here. I've been working on several of the things that you and Chris have been suggesting. Keep these posts coming.
Thanks,
Bill Mason
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I have had 3 or 4 sessions with Joel and the only thing I'm not consistent at is judging yardage. He said once that all comes together I will be fine...PR
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Been shooting with the clicker for a week now and I am starting to group arrows again. I shortened my draw a little from the 30+ inch down to 29 and some change. This has made it easier to get through the clicker with out have to feel like I am stretching. I no longer have the need to release when my sight picture looks right. I will probably try the heavier limbs in another week and go with the feather touching my nose for the clicker. I just have to keep telling myself to "Keep Pulling" as I am at full draw. This really helps take the stress out of the shot.
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I had a great day shooting the last two days. What I did was I paid attention to the reaction of my bow after the shot. That is I watched were my site window and bow hand went upon the release of the arrow. If you do this about 6 to 10 times it will give you a better understanding of what the total great shot will feel like. Also by checking your bows reaction after the shot this will help you to not drop your bow arm. Howard Hill once wrote. ( At the time of the shot nothing happens.) Note: When you are checking this out you should not care were your arrows are hitting. You are trying to learn about what a good shot feels like.
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For me the most important thing I can do to improve my shooting is to have fun shooting. It's like being a kid, they learn to perform in sports by playing and as a result they get better. For me I have to remember to have fun shooting. I set up fun targets like swinging balls, rolling disks, tin cans, 3d, frendily competition and other fun stuff I wanna hit with arrows. Having fun and hitting stuff goes hand in hand. If you're having fun you'll probably shoot better.
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Shot better than I have ever shot yesterday. I shot 4 groups of 4 arrows at 40yds in a 4" circle. I have never done that before. Always been able to put 1 or 2 in and then a couple of flyers but never all 4 and never 4 times in a row. I have been working on my release. When I started shooting with the clicker I was really letting go of the string and my hand would fly away. I am now trying to have my release hand just slide down my face and go straight back. When I do that everything stays in line.
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Originally posted by cch:
[QBI shot 4 groups of 4 arrows at 40yds in a 4" circle.[/QB]
Damn! I'm happy when I do that in the 15yd range haha! But I'm still learning.
Nice shooting :thumbsup:
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I always shoot 2 or three arrows when I practice. I have been holding 6 inch groups at 30 yards with 8 out of ten. When I switch from the 55# bow to the 60# bow my groups are tighter because the string follows a straighter line to the bow. Of coarse my release is also cleaner.
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Bill good to see your still around, I still can replay that antelope video your wife took of your arrow going through the lunges of that antelope at 27 yards. I really found a great thing yesterday while I was shooting that can help you not drop your bow arm and thus improve your shooting. You should try this at 15 then 20 then 25 yards. After I shoot my arrow I hold my bow arm out there and i look to see were the bag target is in relation to my site window. What I found is that the deer on the target is standing on my arrow shelf. I will pay attention to this for 5 or 6 arrows then I go back to my regular shooting. 20 arrows or so latter I will again check to see if the buck is still standing on my arrow shelf for a shot or two. This routine helps me to not drop my bow arm ever. Check it out.
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Once you know the theory of good form, learn a sequence that will take you from pre-shot breathing to watching the arrow hit the spot you wanted!
If you practice enough, that sequence will become automatic.
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What books would anyone suggest about good form?
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Any book by Al Henderson the US archery coach or the little book by Us Open champion Dave Keagy are great. Hear is the thing they are written for Olympic archers to put arrow after arrow in the gold at 100 yards. That dosn't mean that you can not use some of the pointers to help you shoot better. Under standing what a archer has to do to shoot tighter groups will help you. Learning is learning. When ever you read a book on how to shoot you do not incorporate all of the authors pointers into your style you only use bits and pieces.
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Shooting blind and running my shot sequence through my mind helped me improve alot. If you do something enough the right way you will know when and what is wrong if something is wrong. Im to the point now if my arrow doesnt hit where im looking i can tell why. grip, anchor, release and so on. Im not by any means the best shot but this helped me improve 10fold.
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sputterman do you shoot instinctive? or gap? ect....
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thinkin of trying a clicker cuz i know i dont always get to full draw is there one that is better than the other ? if so what would anyone recommend?
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Cherry Tree, I cant really tell you what i shoot. I pick a spot and dont take my eyes off it. with that said I do notice my arrow in my sight picture. I know I have a point on of 20yds but i never really think about yardage it just happens. I guess i subcontiously gap shoot or something, maybe split vision instintive, The main thing i do is stare at a spot and practise my form.
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Originally posted by GREATBROWNKNOCKEMDOWN:
thinkin of trying a clicker cuz i know i dont always get to full draw is there one that is better than the other ? if so what would anyone recommend?
Personally, I like the Crick-It because it has a shorter base than the other one.
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what would you guys do to help hold the bow back once you hit full draw? i shoot instinctive and i think i always get to full draw but i like it to be held for a little bit then let go but once i hit my mouth iits gone! anyway to help keep it held back?
Thanks!
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This afternoon was just not my day. At first, I could group fairly well with a three second rhythm from beginning of the the draw to release with just a slight hesitation at anchor. holding for any amount of time, for some reason i was dumping one arrow out of the six 8 to 10 inches to the right, with another 6 inches up and left. With my wife coaching and checking my form with the faster rhythm, she spotted me dropping my tension if I stopped the draw for more than a 1/2 of a second. It was hot, my cotton wood tree was blowing a cotton blizzard in my face, there were a lot of cars and my furnace fan gave up being able to start on its own without trying to burn the house down first. So I over did it again trying to fix what amounts to nothing more than a lack of clear concentration, I am going to take a week off and hope for cooler weather. Can't win 'em all and I need to forgive myself for having an off day.
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Well I went back to snap shooting. I shot with the clicker for several months. I would have some great days and then some terrible days. On most days with the clicker I would shoot a few good arrows but then some would miss my target by a foot and a half. I went back to snap shooting and my group average has improved. I don't have as many wild shots. I don't shoot as good of groups at 40 yds but at 30yds I can keep a good 6-8 in group.
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I have been trying to improve at longer yardage just because it is fun to shoot. The two main form concerns I have noticed is consistent draw length and bow arm stability. My personal biggest problem at longer yardage is bow arm/hand stability. If you are shooting 30 yards or more, your bow arm/hand have to be rock solid, shock free, movement free after the shot. Takes lots of awareness and focus and a bow that does not have hand shock or too much draw weight.
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A definite sequence you can learn and practice until it is automatic will help every part of your form. If you aren't holding long enough to get a good sight picture or to steady your shot, try blinking or closing your eyes during the draw, or just making a longer hold a big part of your sequence.
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For myself at longer targets, I am better off getting very deliberate on the draw. Holding longer than one second does not help me much, and usually just a slight hesitation and tightening through the release gets my best accuracy at 30 to 64 yards. Once its on its on, no amount of time makes it more accurate. If holding time is required to get it on target or to get a good release, that is another matter.
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A big problem I have noticed while holding more than a second or two is my vision blurs. When I snap shoot I can focus and usually hit real close to my spot. I just don't see a real need for me to hold for a long period of time. I shoot with two guy's that hold for a couple of seconds and I wish I could shoot like that but I do quite well the way I am doing it now. I will probably try it again sometime but for now I am staying with the snap shooting.
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I go to the gym every night, or atleast every other night. Keeps my upper body in shooting shape.
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If I could shoot like CCH I would snap shoot too...PR
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I agree about Al Henderson. Get the book "Understanding Winning Archery". It is a wealth of knowledge about the "shot". And an extreme knowledge about the mental aspects of the shot. Heck it also applies to life in general!