Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: robtattoo on February 25, 2010, 01:07:00 PM
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Everyone talks about 'anchor' points. Be it a tooth, corner of the mouth, cheekbone, whatever, it's always referred to as the 'Anchor'
I'd like to mention here something that my old archery coach taught me a few years ago.
"If you think of it as an anchor, that's what it becomes. It'll stop you dead in your tracks."
Instead, if you think of it as a 'reference point' you won't stop there. Ideally we should be looking to reach our 'reference' just as we run out of muscle & need to start correctly applying back tension. If we come to our reference & then expand into the shot/release/follow through sequence of the shot, you'll notice that;
a) the drawlength will inrease slightly
b) the release will be cleaner & smoother
c) the follow through will be straight back
& d) the drawing hand doesn't ever actually stop.
If you watch Terry's videos of him shooting, you'll notice that he never actually stops his draw. He comes up to his refernce & continues to expand until full draw is reached & thenreleases the arrow in one fluid motion. David Sosza demonstrates this very clearly in Masters of the Barebow (Either Vol 1 or 2, I forget which)
If you watch Rod Jenkins shoot, he comes to his reference & then mometarily stops to adjust his gap. He doesn't then just release the string, he continues to expand through the shot.
This final expansion need not be a long haul back, it need only be a fraction of an inch, but the point is, it is a continuation of the draw, after your reference has been reached.
Just an observation.
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I'm just starting to learn that. Thanks man you explained it perfectly.
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Rob
Well stated. I do agree the thought/concept of an anchor can do just that, cause your mind to stop the draw. Thinking in terms of a reference point may help some to still reach full draw, but then keep pulling through the shot.
Good post!
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Rob,
'Reference point'
Great post! Mighty sage advice!
Should be a sticky to the top.
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Good stuff Rob :thumbsup:
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I've watched Terry on the Bowhunters of Tradgang, probably 50 times. I started doing this a few month's ago. My shot and form have definitely come around and I actually know exactly what to do every time. If my shot is off, I can fix it purdy quick. Being self taught, this is like a breath of fresh air. Thank's guy's for never ending help!! Jason
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Great Explanation of a perfect release! Thank you. Gene
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Good post Rob!
I do find that i have to stop at my anchor/reference for a moment to ensure i get it consistent, but i do then expand after that.
Hopefully as i get my anchor/reference more ingrained in muscle memory the moment will gradually become shorter and maybe disappear completely, but at the moment it's still not ingrained and i do need that moment else my arrows start going everywhere as i lose consistency.
I would add that i recently switched from a full shot glove to taped fingers and the whole anchor/reference has a very different feel that i'm having to learn from scratch again.
Any constructive criticism would be appreciated.
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Thanks y'all! :D
There's absolutey nothing wrong with pausing momentarily at your reference point. The thing to remember is that it's not a stopping point, just an indicator that you need to expand from.
That's exactly how I personally shoot. I never actually stop the draw, I just briefly pause to get my target picture right in my mind (maybe a second) then expand through the release/follow through sequence of my shot.
I also find it really handy to have a very light bow to practice with. I'll often pick up The Wife's 28# target bow, just to run through this sequence. It's just heavy enough that I can correctly feel my alignment & back tension, but light enough that I can do it all day long, slowly, without the chance of over straining myself.
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Yes, that IS a great tip.....here's my saying on the subject...
'An anchor point should never be a resting place....but instead, an evolution to execution.'
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yep...what terry and rob said....my anchor point is where i end up at full draw....then it becomes a starting point to finish off the shot...hope that makes sense....
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Nailed Robtatoo! I find when my shooting starts to scatter that I'm not meeting that reference point before I expand to conclusion. I don't feel the back tension I need. Thanks for a great explanation and reminder.
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Very well said. I tell people that the two worst words in archery are anchor and release. I tell newbies that they are reference points and relaxing the fingers. I can hold a solid face anchor and vary the draw length up to three inches and still be at a solid never moving face anchor. I can't vary my draw length at all if at anchor. And it requires an almost herculean effort to pluck or creep upon release if I am at anchor and do my elbow movement correctly.
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Right on Rob :thumbsup:
You guys are so right! My shooting really improved last year after I read a post here on Trad Gang that stated when you reach your anchor/reference it is the beginning of the shot not the end!
After I thought about that for a while, It was like...Duh! That's it! It changed my whole shot process and did it ever improve my shooting.
It's only been a little over two years now, since I have come back to shooting Trad. But that one post made a real big difference for me!
I also made up some Formasters from a post here on Trad Gang and use one regularly to help me keep my form in tune.
Thanks to all who contribute to this site. :notworthy:
It has helped me and I enjoy being part of it.
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Good post Rob!
Personally, my real anchor is in my back. It is the point where linear travel of the arrow stops and expansion begins. All points on the face, neck, nose, jaw, ear, etc are reference points.
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TTT
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Thank You!!!
It's amazing how powerful "words" are. The things we associate with them have a huge impact on how/what we think when we use them
I've never sat down and thought about it, but it certainly is easy (and probably not good) for us to think of it as a "lock-down" point...when in reality it should be just what you describe: a reference to let us know everything is in check and going as planned.
I'll throw the idea out there I'm gonna start using the term "checkpoint". For me, that means a place you can stop at or move on through, but you must get THERE first before you worry about moving on.
I think those that come from a compound background (like me) are especially susceptible to the anchor=lockdown bug.
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The description of reference point I think is better than Anchor as Anchor implies that it’s fixed and unmoving and lot of people make the mistake of stopping when reaching Anchor, having a solid fixed Anchor does work, I used it in my early days, my experience is that every now and then you have a flier, the more fluid form where you are using an Anchor reference and expanding through the shot is so much more consistent and the only fliers I have is because I was lazy and didn’t expand correctly.
Correct form initially is quite hard disciplined work compared to just holding at Anchor and takes a lot for me to convince my students to make the change, as to them their fixed anchor is giving them respectable results and making the change requires a step backwards in accuracy before they see an improvement, if they get past this they never go back to fixed\\locked Anchor.
As a tourney Longbow shooter I’m not allowed to use a Clicker but I have trained my mind to have a virtual clicker, it allows me to find my reference anchor and keep expanding through the shot, I find this kind of visualization a very powerful tool for good Form. I also use the same visualization techniques to help my aiming. :)
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Excellent post, tks all!!
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I'd have to say I hang on to my reference point/anchor for close to 3 seconds. I shoot best with a double ref point. The string to my eye lid and ring finger to the corner of my mouth into my choppers.
I shoot my best coming to full draw locking onto the target. At the last split second I expand slightly before loosing the arrow.
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No,,,I think I'll stay with the word "anchour" to decribe my anchour point.
Words ain't that powerfull at all,their just an example of how some people are easily distracted by things that don't really matter.
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good stuff, rob - that's what it's all about, what 'it' all boils down to - the expanding reference point.
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How true. Words are so powerful because our words are our thoughts, and our thoughts are our very existence, when you really think about it :confused:
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I am guessing there is something I should read because my anchor point is kind of the end of my shot. I make sure I get that solid and focus on my target and I hit it much of the time. I am self taught more or less (saw The Adventures of Robin Hood dozens of times as a child) and got "Hitting em like Howard Hill" a few years ago but other then that...
What should I read or see to improve and sharpen this blunt tool of mine?
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I have had recently a very bad case of target panic. I would release the arrow prior to reaching anchor. I have had to work hard to correct this and am happy to say that I have made great improvement. What I have had to do though is come to a stop at my full anchor, and while in this position move the arrow through the spot and then pick the spot and pull through the release. I am afraid that if I now started to use reference point and not anchor I may fall back into target panic. I wonder for us who are newer to the sport and self taught, is it important to come to full anchor so we don't develope TP? This is a great post and just wondering what you all think? I use a 55lb bow and it seems to be really no problem to hold the few seconds needed to complete this process, I am hoping that as I become more consitent with reaching full anchor if I then may be more comfortable going to a reference point rather than anchor.
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This is just what I needed to hear. Thank you all. I can't wait to try this in the morning.
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This has been an interesting post for me, too. I have fought the "shooting too quickly" syndrome for all the years (20 plus) I have been shooting a longbow. For a long time it was target panic where I couldn't even get to full draw. I finally got that under control enough that I can get to full draw, but I have to constantly work to hold long enough to have a solid anchor and be on target. Sometimes I get in a rythmn of shooting quickly with the pull through to which Terry refers and I hit pretty well, but I always feel slightly out of control. Then when I try to slow down my shot to be in control, I find myself collapsing at release and the timing and rythmn is off. I've watched MMBB3 numerous times, watched videos of Rick Welches students, tried holding for 2, 3, 4 or 5 seconds, blank bale shooting, closing my eyes and holding at full draw, changing my focus to the point of the arrow as I draw (Viper's suggestion). Finally, what recently seems to be the most effective is to come to my solid anchor and hold until the shot feels right to release. Counting to a specific number doesn't work, because then I anticipate the release. Mentally I have to just make up my mind I am going to pull to anchor and hold until I feel as if I am in control. As I'm holding at full draw I focus on getting my shoulders lined up correctly, solid bow arm and pulling straight back with back tension. Actually this is easier to do with a heavier bow that forces me to engage the back muscles in order to hold it right.
I share the concern of those who mentioned needing to stop at full draw lest I begin rushing the shot again. I understand the concept of "reference point rather than anchor", but for me I am going to have to work in to that idea after spending some time ingraining holding long enough to have control of the shot. As Zetabow points out, it will be worth the effort to make the change eventually, but I believe I must take first steps first, so to speak. Sorry for the long drawn out post, but for some of us who learned to shoot the incorrect way over a long period of time, it may not be as easy as it has been for those fortunate individuals who were able to develop good form from the beginning.
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Thank You and a big thumbs up ! I know it is only a word anchor/stop. In reference to my archery it is huge. Instead of using anchor as a reference and then continuing my draw I stopped,whether it was a short draw or not. After reading your definition of anchor/reference I went out and tried the reference point and draw continuation. I found it helped greatly and groups got tighter. I felt really good when I realized I was at 30 yards and not my normal 20 yards because the wind here blew my arrow bucket around. Thank You
Ken
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I don't know. The best shooters I have watched (i.e. Rick Welch and others) stop and lock in at anchor using back tension. I know I shoot much better when I hold at anchor for 2 sec. Good thoughts though. . .
For those fighting TP- that is a mental/brain issue- NOT a physical shooting issue. You can not solve it by shooting different or practicing more- you need to learn how to THINK different. I say it on all these posts- get J. Kidwell's book on sports psychology- it is the ONLY way to truly solve it.
Dan in KS
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Dan you are right, I believe it is a mental issue. I got the book by J Kidell several months ago and that is where I got the information on curing target panic that has helped me alot. I tried practice and more practice but like one person said earlier here, only perfect practice makes perfect. From the book I got the idea that at full draw and while achored, move the arrow through the spot, make a small figure eight if necessary. When you feel right,pick the spot and pull through the release. This idea has helped me mentally to slow down and get my composure and to feel in control of the shot. As for now I use it whenever I feel the need to rush a shot. The book by J Kidwell is really great.
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Rob,
Thanks for the tip. I just started shooting instictively two months ago, and I have been working on this concept, but the way you stated it is really helped me to feel what I should, and is working great as my focal point during my form practice and blind bale shooting. Thanks again for the great tip!
James
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Good stuff, Rob. Been spending alot of time in front of the bale lately. I had settled back into this, then saw your post which is a nice validation.
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Thanks Rob good to know.
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good stuff
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I agree with Rob, I used to hunt an anchor, but now I just keep drawing, made my release, much ,much better.
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So that's why I always shoot better when I don't stop my anchor at the corner of my mouth. Great post. Thanks.
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Byron said the same 2 weeks ago at his school, it works.
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I need to find a new second reference point. My second reference point is my thumb knuckle on the corner of my jaw bone. I've noticed that I have to draw past my jaw bone then come forward so that my thumb knuckle can then settle in. I'm losing my backwards "momentum" this way. It just doesn't feel right to draw back, settle forward, then expand back again.
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I had that issue for a while, try dragging your thumb across for face as you draw that way when you reach second anchor it just drops in and waits for you to start expanding.
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Yikes!! I can't believe that a simple statement can make such a difference! I shot Sawmill Trad. shoot today and shot O.K. When I got home I read through this thread and although it was midnight I decided to try what was discussed. The idea that your anchor point is not the end of the shot but actually the beginning jsut completely changed my shooting. I often struggle to hold at anchor because the sight picture looks right and my brain wants me to just let go. With this thought in mind I was easily able to hit my anchor,steady my aim and then continue the pull ( actually expand) through the shot. My draw hand usually goes up, out, or nowhere. Thinking this way, I look like I'm shooting a Form Master. My hand comes straight back and my finger tips touch the top of my shoulder. My accuracy was consistent over a dozen shots. No creep, no pluck and no flinging my bow hand or string hand. I've always heard that you should pull through the shot, but, when I try to STOP at anchor and then pull through I pluck the string or move the bow hand. With this thought in mind I can pause at anchor because I'm thinking this is the start of the the shot rather then the end. It is very easy for me to get on target because it's the first thing that I'm doing before pulling through (expanding through) the shot. This is not the greatest explanation but thanks for the tip. I think that, for me , this will really let me get controll of the shot.
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Originally posted by Gregg S:
Yikes!! I can't believe that a simple statement can make such a difference! I shot Sawmill Trad. shoot today and shot O.K. When I got home I read through this thread and although it was midnight I decided to try what was discussed. The idea that your anchor point is not the end of the shot but actually the beginning jsut completely changed my shooting. I often struggle to hold at anchor because the sight picture looks right and my brain wants me to just let go. With this thought in mind I was easily able to hit my anchor,steady my aim and then continue the pull ( actually expand) through the shot. My draw hand usually goes up, out, or nowhere. Thinking this way, I look like I'm shooting a Form Master. My hand comes straight back and my finger tips touch the top of my shoulder. My accuracy was consistent over a dozen shots. No creep, no pluck and no flinging my bow hand or string hand. I've always heard that you should pull through the shot, but, when I try to STOP at anchor and then pull through I pluck the string or move the bow hand. With this thought in mind I can pause at anchor because I'm thinking this is the start of the the shot rather then the end. It is very easy for me to get on target because it's the first thing that I'm doing before pulling through (expanding through) the shot. This is not the greatest explanation but thanks for the tip. I think that, for me , this will really let me get controll of the shot.
:clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
Brilliant Gregg!
Glad it works for you & everyoneelse who's tried it!
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Has anyone tried the push release method? I bought the video and have been trying it out. Seems to be similar to the expansion idea but the focus is on the corner of the mouth as a sort of trigger. When expanding through the shot are you focusing on the back muscles or something else? I'm still considering a clicker but I don't want to mar the limbs of my new Black Widow.
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To be honest, you don't really need to be concentrating on anyting but the target, at that point.
Once you reach your reference you'll want to be expanding your chest & contracting your back muscles to reach full extension. The idea is to get your drawing elbow as far back as possible, so that your drawing elbow, bow hand & your intended target are all aligned. (See Terry's Clock diagrams for an example)
If I remeber, I'll try & get Jules (The Wife) to get some pictures of me drawing tomorrow. It's a lot easier to see what I mean with pictures! I certainly ain't no wordsmith! :biglaugh:
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ok rob wheres the vidio we wana see the man in action. :notworthy: :campfire:
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Spot on Mate!!!!! Its that pulling through thats completes the shot and helps to make for consistency!!!!
Thanks for bringing it up!!!!!
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thanks Rob. I just started working on that very thing today.
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Great post Rob !..would love to see those pics when u get some time
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I had to reread this post Rob, as so many people as asking about this again. I think this should be posted at the top of the forum.
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Great post for someone new to traditional to read before they start. I have shot compound for the last 30 years, (only started doing it right about 5 years ago), and I believe this is a great explanation of back tension and how to make sure you are using it correctly.
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TTT
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Good afternoon;
Does anyone use multiple reference points? My example ( and mind you I'm new at this) is that I draw till my thumb is on my ear lobe, and then I expand until I feel the string touch my left pec (right handed shooter), and then release the arrow.
D
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Best post I ever read on here.
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Great post,I'm in the middle of trying to tweak my form,I've always
been a "snap shooter" but I'm really trying to get a little more control with a reference point and get a little more out of my bow..