Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Dawnpatrol on April 15, 2010, 11:25:00 AM
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When you are on top, it seems like nothing can stop you. When you hit the bottom its all uphill to get to where you want to go.
My shooting fell apart two years ago. Last winter I hunted in the snowy mountains of Idaho where I managed to make a clean miss at a huge 4x4 mulie at 11 yards, broadside, unobstructed. That experience depressed and inspired me. Now, I'm determined to fix what’s broken. I'm planning on elk hunt in Colorado in August 2010 and am laying the ground work to be an accurate confident shot by that time. I'm piecing together a daily shooting routine to get me back on top.
This is where you come in. Got any advice for a victim of Target panic (TP) that wants to work through this problem? I'm open to input guys.
Thanks
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Ain't got no advice for TP but I know how you feel. One day I feel that I couldn't miss even if I drew with my toes. Other days I can't even hit the ground (true) and want to give up.
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Unsure on TP many threads here that can help.
Can empathize. Been hunting Trad for 4 years and still haven't blooded my bow. Know I could with wheels. But I love shooting the recurve and some day WILL succeed. Keep shooting and don’t give up!!!!!!!!! Your time will come.
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I'm not expert, but I think going to a low poundage bow for a bit should help you overcome your TP much faster. There's always the clickers too. Never used one myself, but I've heard great things about them for TP.
Good luck! Remember, majority wise, its a mental game. You just have to think positive thoughts.
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I will repeat this. I had TP. I read a post of a technique that I was taught 40 years ago by a PAA pro. Draw the bow both eyes closed, let down, then right eye closed, let down, then draw right eye closed open it and close the left,let down, do this until the heeby cheebies quiet, then draw with both eyes open, let sown, do this until the heebie cheebies quiet down, then draw the bow tighten up and release, with both hands do nothing and keep your eye on the target.
My daughter had terrible target panic and short draws, this past weekend we fixed it in 30 minutes. she finished by hitting 12 heart lung shots on a small deer target at 25 yards with a 35 pound Hill in a row. The Kidwell thing did not work for me after two years of trying, this worked in 15 minutes. I now shoot mostly left handed because two years of trying and failing wrecked my index finger, I can shoot right handed now but I cannot make a habit out of it or I will get trigger finger in my index joint.
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Thanks everybody for the empathy and sound advice. Very much appericated. You might think that after 20 years of shooting a recurve I'd be some phenomenal great shot. Not so!
Pavan, I like your idea opening and closing eyes until the "heebie cheebies" go away. I'm gonna hit the bales this evening and will report back with results.
Cheers for the advice.
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Been there too. A few years ago I developed TP in a bad way. I'd short draw every dang time. Had to stop shooting with "the guys" because the pressure was making it worse. Took a whole winter to myself. Started in the garage at night coming to full draw pointed at my new Silverado. No kidding! and no way in heck was I going to let that arrow go! Did that every night for a week. Then went to blank bale, eyes closed for a week. Started shooting with my eyes open and noticed that I'd let one go a little quick, so I then developed a shot sequence that I go through mentally for each shot. Mine is: feet, hand(bow), shoulder(rotated), fingers(string), (at this point I stare at my floss nock and take a deep breath), draw, settle, relax.) That routine does two things; it sets a good pace for my shot process which also aids in concentration, and it also serves as my safety net so that when "the wheels come off" I simply go back to my routine and reset the mechanism.
Hang in there, this too shall pass.
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What you got is LIVE target panic. If it had been a 3D Mulie at 11yds, you'd of nailed it. The best way to learn to hit LIVE targets is to shoot at LIVE targets. I spend 25-50hrs a year squirrel hunting w/ the bow to keep me tuned for Deer season. Most states have some open season on something--i.e. red squirrel, woodchuck,chipmunks,goffers, whatever.-- so you don't have to wait for the regular fall small season-- but regardless pleasant fall days in the woods flinging arrows at squirrels will prep you about as well as anything.
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Humans have a complex wiring system. TP is almost a short circuit, forcing yourself to break TP can help in some circumstances and cause a breakdown in others. There is a technique called 'tapping the healer within'. I learned it to control irregular heart rhythms, a side effect of nsaid pain meds. It reprograms ones reaction to stimuli. Curing TP has that same goal, this what I sought to achieve for myself, another local archer and my daughter, what I have described worked. Anything that efficiently changes that wiring should work, NBK worked out something that worked for him as well. One thing I also do that helps, shoot arrows where you can tell how far you are pulling without looking. I prefer net length arrows for target and stumping, I cut my broadheads so they become a draw check when they touch my index finger. My friend who shot long carbons wrapped tape at his full draw as a draw check. this works somewhat like a clicker, but it is not a cure for TP just a little security for knowing when the draw is right.
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Get this book.
Instinctive Archery Insights, by Jay Kidwell
There's a great chapter on Curing Target Panic.
http://www.amazon.com/Instinctive-Archery-Insights-Jay-Kidwell/dp/0963971824/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271400845&sr=8-13
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Hey Ya all. Thanks the for the input!
Pavan-
Went out last night and did the close both eyes, close right eye, close left eye, and then open both. It was pretty interesting. Both eyes closed was smooth. Left eye open as smooth too, just a little funny looking sight picture. But when I closed the left eye and had my right eye open (dominate eye) the heebie cheebies came out. I physically flintched at the target, had a hard time holding, my concentratiion faultered, and my sight picture got all screwy. Very interesting! It seems like I've programed my brain to recognize when my donimate eye is on target and I want to let go of the string while at the same time push with my bow hand. I'm gonna keep doing that close eye thing until it gets better.
NBK- Although I don't have a new Silverado to shoot holes in I'll try holding and letting down like you suggest. I've also noticed that when I shoot in the back yard alone I have descent form, but while shooting with the guys at 3D or stump shooting it all changes. Generally I snap shoot with the guys.
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-Chuck Hoopes
I agree that I should shot at more live game. No dought I'd be a better shot at the hogs and bucks if I shot more rabbits and squirels. However, I don't think that it's "buck fever" I got because I'm usually pretty composed while I shoot at animals, and my shooting is inconsistent even on the straw bale at 15 yards. Right now I could miss the slam dunk on a 3D buck.
NBK-
I'm gonna work out a shot sequence like the one you described. A key issue with my shooting is that I shoot to fast. The shot sequence could force me to slow me down and concentrate on each shot.
Good stuff boys. THANKS!
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I had a real problem with target panic. I think it came from starting with too heavy a bow and bad advice on shooting "instinctively". I tried everything. Lighter bows, books, reading the threads here etc. I just couldn't come back to full draw and lock in before shooting. I finally dragged out an old compound and started shooting it along with the longbow. It reprogrammed me to pause when I came to full draw before shooting. This broke the quick release cycle and improved my traditional shooting immensely. I put the compound away and was able to concentrate again on good technique with the trad bows.
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shame on you jpc161 jk. yes i see how that sin would work .lol !yet so would a super light bow . like let off weight. or close.i picked up a 12 lb bear ranger was from a old school program.
hears my own sin : i used a back tension release with that bear ranger and wow! did that make some profound improvements in follow through and breaking the tp/haisty shot.
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ALWAYS...shoot the bow with your mind,NOT your eyes.
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I think TP is perhaps more of a physical condition more than purely mental. A minor bout I had with it years ago came on when getting harassed at a shoot. The bad one happened when I dropped bow weight. If you can convince yourself that holding at full draw by the use various stimuli, whether using a clicker or bowsight or the Kidwell techniques or the winking, whatever works for you use it. It seems that one has to rebuild the neurotransmitters that create the jump in control. Trying to force it out of your system by will power rarely works. For those that do not hold on target, swing draw anchor deep release, that is not really target panic. TP is when, what ever tempo one shoots at, form completely breaks down when exact aiming takes place. Using the other techniques, I could force myself to hold at a target, providing I performed the trick during the shot. As soon as I did not do the trick it was still with me. Last night I tested myself with a right hand bow out in the back yard after returning from turkey hunting with my left hand bow. I could feel that evil TP monkey behind me. I went through the cycle once and then proceeded to shoot in my normal rhythm. My goal is to not necessarily hold on target, or to be able to hold off target and then swing on target just to let down, the goal is to smoothly execute the shot and only concentrate on the target. The idea being that the form, speed, and release of the shot is dictated by aim and not by tempo. I believe that Howard Hill's release was aim motivated and not tempo motivated. He could get to his aim very smoothly and quickly, but he most definitely was aiming. It seems that getting stale shooting any technique is where the poison of tp gets permanent. Hill was always splitting hairs, keeping the finite concentration focused. Good form is using the right muscles and alignment, good control of that form is a lot more fun when happens without a lot of mental manipulation and baggage. For me it is that last 6 inches of draw, where my eyes have etched the spot where the arrow is heading, the draw hand smoothly squeezes to the double anchor, the release is nearly immediate, the follow through has my fingers jump back just a little, my bow is still on target and the arrow is spinning over the shelf heading directly to where my eyes are focused. Not a lot of thought and self introspection involved, just focus.
I feel that I have just given a full Sunday morning sermon. Sorry for the long post.
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No apologies. I, for one, appreciated the read. You mentioned the double anchor. I discovered it on the Tradgang video in Terry Green's section and it helped quite a bit. Having that second spot made me slow down and helped the target panic and my overall shooting. If I didn't hit it, my accuracy suffered accordingly. For me, just another one of the "tricks" you mentioned to overcome the TP.
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At I least I managed to leave out the three page short overview of focal dystonia. I guess I could leave that to my friend David Leisner.
http://davidleisner.com/
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In my short time with trad shooting (2 months) I've noticed some similarities with trad shooting & golf. It seems to me that target panic would be similar to the dreaded "shank" in golf, where a perfectly good shooter or golfer suddenly looses it.
In golf, it is all mental, you make a few bad swings & it gets in your head & you try to "fix" it, & it just starts going down hill from there, with some people never coming out. I think going back to the basics would be the best thing to do, kind of start fresh & build from there.
Get back to basics, don't over analyse & keep it fun. :thumbsup:
Hope it works out for you, good luck.
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Rod, what do you mean by "shoot with your mind, not your eyes"? As in, shoot when you are ready, not when it "looks" right?
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Let the mind totally control each step of the shot sequance and never skip a step...the eyes start seeing what they want to see, long before the shot is put together enough to shoot.
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Thanks, Rod.
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Since I'm in rehab I thought a 7 step program (similar to Alcoholics Anonymous) would do well for me. Here is what I got in mind for my shot sequence. Right now I can get to about step 5 when everyting goes haywire and I fall off the wagon.
(1) Stance: address target, pick a spot, plant my feet and have balance slightly forward.
(2) Set: bow arm nearly straight at target, tension on string, get shoulders into alignment for draw.
(3) Draw: pull straight thru to anchor, shift weight slightly back to center of balance.
(4) Anchor: index finger on eyetooth, knuckle of thumb under jaw, check shoulder alignment.
(5) Aim: focus on the spot, get on target, and maintain for 2-3 seconds.
(6) Release: Pull straight thru with elbow.
(7) Follow: Bowhand stays on target, sting finger relaxed and falling back.
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Rod,
I know that seeing the arrow on target is a metal trigger that often breaks down my shooting form. I tend to focus more on hitting the target (result) rather than making a good shot (form).
Thanks for your enlightening thoughts.
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I did something similar to your seven step program. What helped me was to take it to your step five and hold without shooting every few shots. Breaks the sequence and keeps you from anticipating the release. Just don't make it the same number everytime. I started out just drawing and holding on target a number of times to try and recondition myself and break the cycle. I would actually have to stop myself from releasing the arrow when I first started doing this and would flinch just like someone anticipating the shot when shooting a handgun. Very troubling but I saw why my accuracy was so off. I would shoot one arrow on the last draw. It did seem to help some. Nothing new, all of it is already on this site or in Jay Kidwell's book.
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Yes, me too. I noticed that drawing and NOT shooting is not only very difficult, it also helps break the cycle of shooting unintentionally. I need to keep it up, just feeling what it feels like to be at full draw, without a care in the whirl, focusing on back tension and anchor and sight picture, but NO worries about result. Aaaarrgghh! How could something so simple be so freakin' difficult!
:knothead: :banghead:
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Get Kidwell's book and study it! You will understand. . .
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The rythum of the shot is an interesting thing. It seems to increase in tempo as you work thru each step. Maybe this is why so many of us rush "the shot".
For me, as I go through my shot sequence each step is a little quicker than the proceeding one. For instance, Stance and Set are slow and methodical. Draw, Anchor, and Aim are a little quicker. The Release and Follow through are quick and occur almost simotaniously. Its a rythum/tempo that increases through the shooting sequence.
How do I build a good rythum of the shot that will be slow enough to not "rush the shot" and quick enough to do it without over thinking it?
Any ideas there?
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This is a great thread!
I too suffer from TP. In fact, I put my bows down altogether for a year. I just could not justify shooting so poorly.
I've picked up my recurve again and I'm starting to relearn this process. So far, so good, but I still have the urge to "let er rip" as soon as my eyes tell me to.
Like MRD said above, how could something so simple be so hard!
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Alex. I was going thru the exact same thing as you.It was killing me. After 36 years of shooting right handed I got the guts to sell all my right handed bows and start shooting left handed. I should have switched years ago. After 2 months I could draw, hold, aim, kick in the back and shoot. Shooting better now than ever. My style has changed to a more target style, although I still cant my bow. Started at 28 lbs and now hunting with 52 with no problem at all. It is a big step, but, to me at least, was well worth it. Been at it about 5 months now.
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A friend of mine had switched from shooting a compound to trad gear because he saw the rest of us having so much fun at the 3D shoots.Anyway, he just couldn't shoot at live animals without completely losing his composure.Without really thinking about it, I said that he should try shooting his longbow like he used to shoot his compound,draw,anchor and hold,aim and than release.He did this and immediately saw such an improvement,I think because he discovered a way to control his shooting/aiming sequence, that he proceeded to kill the next several deer that came within his range.I could also see a huge boost in his confidence when it came to shooting. :)
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I cured mine by putting the quiver down and only shooting one arrow at a time.
I hold at anchor for 2 solid seconds and keep my bow arm framed after the shot for a 5-count. I go back to this whenever I start to get a touch of TP and it really really helps me.
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Shooting one arrow at a time is what I did when doing the winking thing as well and have done the same for those that I helped with TP. I have noticed that many shooters have varying form when shooting a back quiver full of arrows at a back yard target, some of these same shooters, myself included, have much more consistent form shooting a single judo point out stump shooting.
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LimbLover-
I like the idea of holding on target after the shot for 5 seconds. That sounds like a good way to exaggerate your follow thru. I'm sure will help me considerably and plan to try it after work this evening.
I've been working out semi regularly with the Form Master. Wow! What a difference that thing makes. After about 10 shots I take it off and the bow wants to jump out of my hand at the target. I don't drop my bow hand during the shot, and the arrows flight is faster, smoother, and the bow is quieter. Clearly the Form Master is working for me.
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Doowop-
Wow that is a "big step". Sounds serious. For me, my left side of the body is slightly retarded. I can't hardly hold a bow in my left hand. I'm impressed to hear that you were successful at switching over to lefty. Congratulations!
My buddy had shoulder issues a couple years back and switched to lefty shooting light bows (35lbs). He managed to harvest a turkey and a pig shooting south paw. Like you, his form (right handed) was instinctive and he shot rather quick once the nock touched his face. But left handed he had perfect form, could anchor, hold and aim the bow. Now he has switch back to right handed about 6 months ago. I don't want to put a jinx him but he is now shooting better than he ever.
I wonder if the left handed shooting taught him something that he couldn't get right handed due to his form/muscle memory/mental conditioning. Interesting stuff.