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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: kmunch on May 11, 2010, 09:39:00 PM
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Who is an instinctive shooter vs aiming? I thought i was instinctive but when I am at full draw I do notice my arrow and where its pointed so what does that make me?
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You will probably find as many different definitions of instinctive shooting as you find different shooters. My definition is that it doesn't matter if you notice the arrow, what matters is if you consciously use the arrow tip to aim the shot. How could you not notice the arrow if you are shooting at your point-on distance and the arrow tip is right on your target? Does that mean that no instinctive shooters can ever shoot at their point-on distance?
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I use them all depending on the shooting scenario, for example Instinct wouldn't work well on an 80 yard Field shot so I use POA method and leave the instinct for short range\\moving shots.
They ALL work it's just finding the right aiming method to suit your shooting requirements. :)
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I agree with Zeta.. I shoot instinctive when its more hunting or close target range, but I am if its longer field shots.
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Kmunch that makes you an archer. If it works why worry about what it is, use it. :thumbsup: I practice out to 30yds. and all of my focus is on the spot where I want the arrow to hit, that is what concerns me the most. Don't need to call it anything. :archer:
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Instinctive IS aiming...
There are 'conscious' aiming methods(Gap, Gun Barreling, split vision, Face Walking, Sight pins, etc...) .....and a 'subconscious' method ( instinctive)
Whether you are consciously or subconsciously aiming, you are aiming either way.
Find the one that works for you...OR, the one that you enjoy the best. Make sure you are having fun 1st and formost.
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Originally posted by zetabow:
I use them all depending on the shooting scenario, for example Instinct wouldn't work well on an 80 yard Field shot so I use POA method and leave the instinct for short range\\moving shots.
They ALL work it's just finding the right aiming method to suit your shooting requirements. :)
I do the same thing.
Out to my POA which is 40 yards I'm I guess instinctive because I really don't see the arrow till it has left the bow & into the target but beyond 40 yards I am working on POA.
I am OK but not great out to about 60 yards using POA method but beyond that I'm still working on my shot.
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The dirty little secret is we all see our arrows to some degree or another. Whether it's in your peripheral vision like instinctive shooters or more in focus like a gap shooter or a combination of both. Don't try to label yourself, just try to hit your target.
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Ive seen a 2'' glow in the dark plastic disc shot in a pitch black range at 20yrds and the previous shots were with in a 9'' circle.we had tried a candle but it put off to much light you could still see the shaft.
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Instinctive shooting still requires aiming. The aiming starts at the beginning of the shot sequence and continues through the follow through. Instinctive just uses a fluid motion vs. pausing at full draw.
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Well said Terry.
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the only aiming you do while shooting instinctively REALLY instinctive! is with your eyes aimed right at were you want to hit you dont look at the arrow you dont look at your bow you look were you want that arrow to hit.
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i have a problem picking a spot. i need to figure out away to focus more. any ideas?
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Originally posted by Tyler2045:
i have a problem picking a spot. i need to figure out away to focus more. any ideas?
Visualize the arrow going into the spot you want to hit, powerful tool the brain.
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I thought I shot purely instinctively. However, when I draw back and there is a piece of debris or something on the tip of my arrow I notice it immediately. I have come to realize that my eye and brain know where the arrow is pointing and use it to align both the horizontal and vertical planes for a shot. We all aim. Some just aim better than others.
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Terry, you beat me to it. Instinctive IS aiming.
Late one afternoon I was shooting two judo arrows at cans in the back yard. One arrow was light colored and the other was stained dark. As the light failed, I began to hit much better with the light colored arrow, and that little light went off in my brain. Although I wasn't consciously aiming with the arrow, obviously I was doing just that.
Since then, ALL of my hunting arrows (well, except for turkey arrows) are light in color, because most shots come at low light times.
That's not to say that I have to see the arrow to shoot well. Another day, while shooting inside the arrow shaft plant, there was a power failure just after I had made my first shot of a series at 20 yards. On a whim, I kept shooting (no one else was there), even though there was no light at all. I could hear the arrows hitting the target, but couldn't see anything but the image left in my mind when the lights went out. When the power came back on, all of my arrows were grouped with the first one.
Like zetabow said, powerful tool the brain.
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For the most part the Brain doesn't see everything because it just too much information to process so it's not that difficult not to see the arrow if you so wish, subconsciously EVERYBODY sees the arrow but we have that conscious choice not to.
To shoot 50 yards instinctively I would maybe put two out of four in score zone, using Gap it's four out of four and not hard for me to decide whats best, under 20y the Gap is so big it's easier just to use instinct. (I have a 65y point on)
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IFAA World\\European Field Champ, Fita 3D World Champ
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A great deal of very interesting and informative info in this thread. You just never know which way that something is said will be the very way that "clicks" with you (and turns that little light on - LOL)
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Due to the Gaps in my form, I Instinctively Aim poorly.
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If you are running on instinct, you are shooting good and then one day you notice your arrow don't let it bother you. If you are not happy with your shooting, let it help you. But don't stare at it, they don't listen to you if you stare at them.
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When I stare at my arrow point (For Gapping)I just tend to drift to the right (LH shooter). Is this typical?
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I thought I was shooting instinctive until I watched Mr. Welch video. I then began to stare at the target and my shooting improved. The video that shows the sight picture really did it for me. If I begin to drift back I think back to the sight picture.
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Terry, another second to that one! Use what works for you and what you enjoy. I am not very consistent using straight instinctive and if I want to have faith in a 30 yard shot I need a system of aiming that has a reason besides my instinct. Other peoples instinctive shooting is more reliable then some people using sights so find what works and get out and shoot.
Michael
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Instinctive shooting still requires aiming. The aiming starts at the beginning of the shot sequence and continues through the follow through. Instinctive just uses a fluid motion vs. pausing at full draw.
this is called snap shooting . i hold for 3-5 seconds and never take my eyes off the target my point on is about 60yrds close shots to 25yrds are impossible for "me" to gap so i just pick a spot hold and followthrough the shot.yes i can see the shaft in my lower periferal vision it helps with windage.
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So what your saying is you cant hold the bow back at full draw and still instinct shoot?? there is know aiming when instinct shooting.
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Originally posted by Cherry Tree:
So what your saying is you cant hold the bow back at full draw and still instinct shoot??
Sure you can hold and shoot instinctive. On targets and animals.
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Yes i know that but what eric-thor says that instinct is a fluid motion vs pausing at full draw. so i thought i would point that out! because there is no reason you cant stop at full draw and still instinct shoot!
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Right on Terry, everybody aims somehow. I shoot instinctive i guess sence my subconteous does my aiming for me and i do pause at full draw though. I think of it this way, when you get a drink u dont conteously grab the bottle and unscrew the lid your sub does it for you.
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Totally instinctive. I tried consciously aiming but it didn't work for me. Now I let my brain call the shots and it has worked out pretty well for me.
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I know with split vision gap shooting, you have to practice it so much that by the time you take your shot it feels almost instinctive.
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Aim, gap, gunbarrel , and face walk.
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Originally posted by zetabow:
Originally posted by Tyler2045:
i have a problem picking a spot. i need to figure out away to focus more. any ideas?
Visualize the arrow going into the spot you want to hit, powerful tool the brain. [/b]
amazing how that works
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I have a problem of just pulling back and letting it fly. My anchor point is when the base of my thumb touches the corner of my mouth. From 20 yds and under, I'm great, but over 20, and it's just spray and pray. I just need to get to the range more to practice POA
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What is point of aim?
Thanks!
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Don't let them tell you you can't pause at anchor and still shoot instinctive. How long you anchor has no bearing whatsoever on how you aim. Most keep on pulling through the anchor though but it sure isn't snap shooting.
Point of aim is an old target shooting style where you put your arrow point on an object lower than the target and focus on your arrow point and object rather than your target. It was popular in the 20s-40s with target archers who anchored on their chins. The point of aim moves up closer to the bullseye the farther you get from the target until eventually it is on the bullseye.
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Ok thanks reddogge!
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If your arrow is not pointed (aimed) at the spot you want to hit you will not connect. Animals do a lot of things instinctively, but shoot an arrow? I don't shoot instinctively. Dead reckoning maybe. I draw and create a sight picture that looks right for the range based on practice with my bow. The constant variable is that I always point the arrow at the impact point.
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Originally posted by reddogge:
Don't let them tell you you can't pause at anchor and still shoot instinctive. How long you anchor has no bearing whatsoever on how you aim. Most keep on pulling through the anchor though but it sure isn't snap shooting.
Yep...exactly!!!...
However I'm a snapshooter as the term was originaly coined.....
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Whenever this topic comes up people get stuck on whether or not they see the arrow as part of the sight picture to describe how they aim.
Of course, everyone DOES see the arrow whether they consciously use it or not. A more important distinction is whether range estimation is used as part of the aiming system.
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Originally posted by NJWoodsman:
Of course, everyone DOES see the arrow whether they consciously use it or not. A more important distinction is whether range estimation is used as part of the aiming system.
Unless you are blindfolded and shooting at an alarm clock. :D
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
However I'm a snapshooter as the term was originaly coined.....
What is the original definition of a snapshooter?
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Originally posted by Ron LaClair:
I've been shooting a bow since I was a squirt... but I didn't really start to learn about form and style until I started shooting competition 49 years ago. While we never "stop" learning there are some things that become apparent after 50 years of study. One thing I do know for sure is there is no absolute style when it comes to shooting a bow.
When someone says you have to shoot this way or that way because all the top shots shoot that way, I say baloney. Some of the best shooters I've been privileged to know shot with what some would call an "unorthodox" style. Jim Pickering used a "Dead" release and high anchor when he competed in some of the top tournaments of the day in the 1960's. Everyone else in the Country shot with what was call "Power Archery" Jim whipped them all. He was a National Champion and a PAA Champion using a style that everyone said was "wrong". Jim Caspers another Archery Champion shot with a high elbow on his drawing arm. He actually pumped his arm up and down after he was at full draw, he said it helped him build up back tension.
As for the term "Snap shooter", I've been hearing it for 50 years and it was probably used before that. It has "always" been used to refer to someone that shot in one fluid motion, and whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.
I was privileged to talk to Fred Bear many times over the years and I remember him calling himself a "snap shooter". He said, "I'm a snap shooter,..I concentrate from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet". He said he couldn't shoot a compound because the let off interfered with the rhythm of his shooting style and broke his concentration.
"Good snap shooters"?...I've seen a lot of them. In the early years of the GLLI (Great Lakes Longbow Invitational) when scores were kept , we had the best shooters in the Country shooting for the honor of top dog. The shooters that won that shoot more often than not were what I call "Snap shooters" Very controlled, very meticulous, very accurate shooters whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.
Someone that "does not" come to full draw or touch their anchor before they release have what's called "target panic or what use to be called "IT". They are NOT...repeat NOT, snap shooters.
I think the problem is like what Terry said people today are "mis using" the term "snap shooter". Snap shooting is definitely not an inferior style of shooting a bow, however it must be realized that not everyone can master the snap shooting style. Those that can't may end up with target panic and be called snap shooters but in reality they are not. Maybe we should come up with another term to describe these failed snap shooters...."short snappers"?..."Half snappers"?
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Thanks Terry, I have learned so much from this sight I can't even describe how greatful I am.
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I really don't know what you would call how I shoot..split vision I guess. I know it's not gap, because I've tried that and don't like aiming at the ground. When the target is out past 45yds or so I'll use point of aim and aim over using the point of arrow as a sight.
Hunting I look at where I want to hit, see my arrow with peripheral vision and when I'm shooting good I'll look more over the top of the arrow and put it where it needs to be. I don't aim down the arrow. I just lean my head over and see it with split vision.
When I'm not in a groove I notice I don't lean my head over like I should and I'm not as accurate.
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When you reach the yardage where the tip of your arrow is on the bullseye when you release and your arrow hits the bullseye, that is your "point of aim" yardage. It varies according to your anchor, bow weight, etc. My POA is 62-63 yds shooting split finger.
There have been an amazing number of good studies done on "instinctive" action in sports in many fields other than archery. The general concensus is that human instinct is actually learned behavior that has been repeated enough that it happens without apparent thought. If you practice enough that you don't have to think about it, you are shooting instinctively.
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I shot "instinctive" with a recurve since about 1987. The only method I could find back then to help me out was the Asbell book. In the 20+ years since then, I had gotten pretty darn fluid with my "instinctive" shooting. I was averaging 8.5 to 9.0 points per target in the Western States Triple Crown in 2005 and 2006. I had a max limitation with the shooting method of about 30-35 yards. My eye just wasn't able to focus on the spot at the farther distances. I enjoy field shooting with my Dad, so I tried to adopt to a "split vision" type shooting style that I could shift into a Gap at the farther ranges that the field shooting would offer. I moved my split finger anchor from my middle finger (instinctive) to the index finger (split vision/gap).
I shot this way exclusively since about June 09. My 3-d scores went down. I was now barely averaging in the 7's. However, I was able to shoot the longer 40-60 yard targets on the butts with more regularity. I competed in 2 legs of the Western States Triple Crown this year, but my poor scores are averaging in the 6's. Wow, when you look at it on paper, that stinks!
I know that in the past year, I now shoot more erect (stance that is). My draw increased from just over 31" to about 32". I used a slightly longer bow and hold the bow vertically. I anchor with my index finger. I hold for a few seconds, then release. I can group well on the target faces at known ranges, but when I get on a unknown ranged 3-D target, my consistence isn't what I use to have with the original method I used.
This weekend was the last straw. I decided to go back to my old, tried and true method of "instictive" shooting. I started anchoring with the middle finger and canting again. My shot timing sped up to almost an instantanious release upon anchor, like it use to. It only took me about 15 minutes of shooting before I started shooting my feathers off my arrows at 20 yards again. Wow, I guess the ol' mind remembered "how to ride a bicycle".
Moral of the story...
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The issue I had for years when I tried to use my instinctive method up to about 30-35 yards, and then transition to the gap/split vision is that I don't guess yardage well. My natural timing for shooting instinctive gets a "hiccup" in it when I slow down at the anchor. I tried to hold slightly longer at full draw, but once again, the timing is screwed up. In addition, I unintentionally start shooting split vision when I hold longer...which brings me full circle back to why am I getting away from shooting that style. Hmmm....