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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: moebow on July 24, 2010, 07:56:00 AM
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There has been so much discussion lately about shooting form, that yesterday I got a wild hair and went to range an made the following video.
Am I the best one to make a video on shooting form? Most definitely NO. But, I haven't seen any in recent memory here so I thought I'd bite the bullet and try. I've narrated the video, however the narration on the back clip didn't come through. This is my first attempt at this so one minor glitch doesn't seem too bad. At any rate, the back view clip is to show the movement of the drawing arm shoulder blade. Note that it is kind of poking out at anchor then moves flat against my back upon release. You can also see the bow side shoulder blade move toward the target on release -- just a little.
Anyway, here's the clip. Questions, comments and criticisms welcomed.
Archery, shooting a hill bow using the BEST system (http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMoebow)
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Well as expected, I screwed that up. Let's try again. Archery, shooting a hill bow using the BEST system (http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMoebow1)
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Great video, not only in the quality of the filming, but the shooting form. Once again, I cannot comment on someone else's form when theirs is better than mine! Nice job and thanks for putting it up.
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Enjoyed watching your video, particularly your commentary about what specific parts of your form to look at. Sometimes I get caught up in looking at the forest, and have trouble focusing in on individual trees.
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Great video moebow ! just like your post, well thought out, put together and presented.
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I like the comment "If you ended up in the right place then likely you started off in the righ place."
Nice shooting and informative video on consistent form, looks very much like my own form. :)
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Thanks for the comments folks. Glad to hear that I didn't make too many errors or goof up too bad.
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Nice job. I would like to see a close-up of your string hand to see how you get your fingers on to start and at full draw. Kind of looks like you angle them some to match the cant a little.
How much contact to your have with your grip? Looks like the bottom of your hand is out a little.
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xtrema312,
Thank you!
I do have a video that goes through the steps of shooting that I made for my recently completed summer advance NASP class. It shows how I teach setting the bow hand and the string hand. For many/most on the site, it is going to be rather elementary and GASP the video is made using the Genesis beginner's bow with wheels. BUT the proper bow hand and string hand position DOES NOT CHANGE with the type of bow used!!!!!!
I know that Howard Hill said that a bow should be gripped as thought you were grabbing a suitcase but the grip I use on all my bows (longbow and recurve) is what I show on this video.
You have sharp eyes to pick this up but yes, my grip on the bow places the grip and weight of the bow into the meaty part of my thumb and on the thumb side of the life line and the part of my hand under the little finger does not touch the grip.
I'll try to post that video clip on this thread tonight or tomorrow.
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extrema312,
Here is the video that I mentioned. It was made for 12 to 14 year olds so don't think I'm trying to talk down to anyone. And yes, I'm using a Genesis compound bow. I still think it's the best beginner's bow made. It has no peak weight or let off, has a universal draw length.
low wrist and bone alignment are what we are looking for.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMoebow1
demo shot
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Sorry folks, I'm still struggling with this @#$%$#@ youtube stuff@#$%$#@!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Another thought extrema is that the fingers at full draw do match the angle of cant. That is achieved through total relaxation of the string forearm/wrist and hand. If that group is relaxed, your string fingers have to line up with the string simply from the force applied to the string hand by the bow. If there is any tension there the string gets twisted (torqued) from you the shooter. Another outside influence on the bow.
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It really was a breakthrough for me when I finally understood, from an earlier post you made, that my string hand should be relaxed and follow whatever angle my bow hand set. I find this easy to do with lighter weight bows. Do you have any hints for making this happen with heavier, hunting weight bows? With these bows, I find that my string hand tends to lock into a particular angle, and it is not easy to relax my string hand to the extent that it can follow the angle set by the bow hand.
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McDave,
You have identified a common problem. There is by definition some tension in the wrist and forearm required to hold the "hook". If you have the string in the creases of your string hand fingers, the tension required should not be a whole lot greater for a heavy bow than for a light one. BUT.....
Keeping a consciously relaxed hand/wrist/forearm takes more concentration and practice with heavier bows. The mind says that I'm shooting a heavier bow, I NEED to stiffen up. The mind lies!!!!
Be sure that your string hook is deep enough to have the finger nails of at least the index and middle fingers pointing back at your throat rather than at your chin and you will be really close to what you want. As you increase bow weight , you must increase the attention to keeping that darn forearm soft.
Best I can say now but I'll think on it some more.
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I got a Genesis compound bow for the wife and kids to use when they get a little older. Great training bow.
I also find I have to turn the bow hand out a hair more than the suitcase grip.
I have been looking at how I hook the string. I start off with a deep hook and fingers pointed back, but I know my index and ring finger come out of the deep curl some. I have also been playing with finger pressures with more on the middle and then trying more on the ring at first take up of the string to see the effects.
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xtrema, current thinking is that it's OK for the ring finger to be engaged on the pad, that is not in the joint, and for it to point at the chin. Try, though to keep the index and middle finger pointed back at the throat. I think many of us are getting too carried away with % weight carried by each finger. IF the hand/wrist/forearm are relaxed as much a possible, you will get a proper weight distribution on the fingers.
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Administrative note for all reading this thread. There are two videos posted here. The one that started it all and I called it "Archery, shooting the hill bow using the BEST system" and the second one that I called "demo shot".
I am a COMPLETE rookie when it comes to youtube and I have not yet figured out how to make a specific link to a specific video. As you see (at least it looks to me) that clicking either link will get you to the page where both videos are, then you have to select the one you want to see. I'm also not sure how I got two copies of the first video on there either. I guess that if one wears out the other will still work. :knothead:
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Nice video of your shot. Good instruction. Thanks for sharing.
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Good videos! From a different perspective, your first couple of rounds you seemed a little nervous, then settled down for a couple, then looked like you were glad to be nearing the end. All of that is mental stuff. Hard to teach and keep a straight face mentally!
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I really enjoyed watching the Video. Thanks :p
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Very informative sir, & very good video.
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Great video Moebow. I love the commentary and narrative
You talked about a "rotational anchor", which if I understand correctly, is drawing along a horizontal arc to ensure that you are engaging the back muscles. My question is how is the bow arm play into this, is lined up the sight at the beginning of the draw cycle or do you start to the left and then adjust at full draw?
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Targets3D,
The system works BEST (pun intended) if the bow is lined up a little to the left (for right handed) and is allowed to move into alignment as you draw. The drawing motion will pretty much align the bow as you come in to anchor. I think that if you look at the rear view on the video you can see that somewhat left alignment and how the bow comes around as I reach full draw.
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Thank MoeBow - One more question. You used 2 different bows (one I believe you had not shot in over a decade) and still got very close group and proximity to target - Does that mean that sight picture is not coming into play here?
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The best way for me to explain that (and it will be different for everyone) is that I am aware of the line of the arrow. That is, from the nock end under my eye to the point of the arrow is in my peripheral vision and I know that it is lined up left and right with the target. No gap awareness for most shots out to 20/25 yards. The fact that I hadn't shot that bow for 20 years, took the two first arrows to get a feeling for elevation. After that it really was a matter of trust and focus (and I'd be lying if I didn't admit to a little luck :>) The big fight I had was really in the very different grip and not allowing that to influence the form execution.
The big reason for shooting the Black widow and the Bear at the end of that clip was to try to show that regardless of all the discussion about equipment setup. If your form is repeatable then any arrow with any bow will group. Yes spine, brace height, nocking point are important to actually hitting something but not necessarily for grouping. there's a difference.
And, By the way, There was NO nocking indicator on the Bear, I was just "eye balling" it
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nice video it's got me thinking about my form no!lol thanks for the great video
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Very nice videos. I watched them both. You have excellent form and release and presented them well. Thanks.
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Great videos, I shoot a straight limbed longbows, the Howard Hill bow video has really helped me out! Thanks for putting it up!
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moebow asked me to look at his vid...so here goes!
Very consistent form with great alignment...good job! I did however see a slight loss of back tension at release on a couple shots, so keep working on maintaining back tension until conclusion( can't shoot them too strong).....the fact you shooting very quickly from arrow to arrow, may be the culprit. Allow at least 45 second between arrows so that muscles can recover. Shooting consecutive arrows to fast is one of my bad habits, as well.
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Very nicely done. Great form, I shoot pretty fast myself. I find I shoot better when I shoot fast but I do try to slow myself just a tad.
When I was at the archery field yesterday I realized how fast I do shoot. I would often shoot 6 arrows and retrieve and shoot again before the other archers. I spent my last 20-30 arrows taking time during the shot and between shots. I really had to make the effort to slow down, I play golf fast and I have a 1.6 index. I shoot my pistol fast and shoot very tight groups, I guess to each own.
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Thank You all for the nice comments. I hope that something in the videos will get you thinking about form.
Rod, Yes, you are right about the speed I'm shooting and I do need to let the muscles recover after each shot, And so do those of you looking at this thread. And Rod is DEAD ON about my loss of back tension. I especially lose it when I am LOOKING at the target compared to blind bale. That loss is evident in the "grouping" video especially in the early ends.
All you reading this thread: Isn't it great when a shooter the caliber of Rod Jenkins will take the time to add a critique. Attend one of his clinics if at all possible, YOU WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED!!!!
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Originally posted by SHOOTO8S:
Shooting consecutive arrows to fast is one of my bad habits, as well.
Add me to that club. I need to slow way down. I can shoot a half dozen in 45 seconds, and I thought that was slowing down. I have notice many times that my best shot is the first one after walking out to get arrows and coming back to start shooting again. That shot just feels so smooth and is more accurate than all the rest.
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Thanks for the video and well done. I have learned a great deal from your instruction and from the comments of the others.
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All your videos are great. Nice coments. I wish i would soo them when i started shooting.
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Great video Moebow, I enjoyed that. It would seem that consistent form is a blessing. In regards to equipment, have you compared your groups from longbow to recurve after an extended warm up? I was just wondering if for instance a longbow that had some hand shock would group compared to a recurve that was dead in the hand. What do you think?
I find I am a better shop with a recurve, but then, I'm not Howard or Byron either!
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Again all, thanks for the kind comments. And Thanks LB fanatic for bringing this post to the top again. I was thinking I was heading for 4th page oblivion. It may be time to emphasize that these videos were meant to cause thought about how you shoot, not to try to imply that this is the way you have to do it. Hopefully, the videos will cause you to think about what you do and how you do it.
Paul, to answer your question recurve vs longbow. I am not the greatest shot in the world and don't claim to be. I find though that if I warm up and pay attention to my fundamentals I seem to shoot both styles about the same. I can't really tell a difference in grouping capability. I personally prefer a longbow style grip and find that I must pay close attention to my grip if I switch to a recurve like the Bear KH that I shot in the "group" video. My bottom line thought is that we will shoot the best with the style bow we like the best or have the most confidence in. There's that darn brain interfering with "stuff" again. :knothead:
As far as hand shock goes, there are as many opinions as longbows and longbow shooters. I only have about 15 longbows and have never been able to identify what some mean by "tooth rattling" hand shock. Yes, if I do something wrong, I feel hand shock but for me, it only happens if I get REALLY sloppy with my grip.
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Excellent video, thanks for posting.If people follow your instructions sales may go down as they will stop trying to buy accuracy.
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I only have one comment about the clip!! :clapper:
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Great thread, I didn't see this the first (or second) time around. Thanks for the videos moe!
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ammoeater, Thank you, I hope they give good ideas for those that take a look. I also thank you for bringing this up again. This is the second time this thread was headed for 4th page oblivion. It's fun to see it reappear once in a while. :goldtooth:
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Great video, commentary and attitude. :thumbsup:
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Originally posted by moebow:
xtrema, current thinking is that it's OK for the ring finger to be engaged on the pad, that is not in the joint, and for it to point at the chin. Try, though to keep the index and middle finger pointed back at the throat. I think many of us are getting too carried away with % weight carried by each finger. IF the hand/wrist/forearm are relaxed as much a possible, you will get a proper weight distribution on the fingers.
Pronation is a natural tendency of the forearm (me thinks) so I try to feel the pull of my drawhand start from my pinky... I actually don't pay much attention to the fingers on the string.. this is just me and I've been called weird, unorthodox and a bunch of other unrepeatable things. :D
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Just saw your Video, Very good and informative, I agree form is so important. If you have very good form, everything else falls in place. I am glad to see we elder shooters can do well. Thanks Don
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Moebow,
Very nicely done. Lots of good meat and potatoes information. One question, I assume this form will work well in hunting situations?
Thanks for posting the videos!
Doug
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Doug, Short answer is YES!
Since you ask, I am obviously shooting in an indoor target range and using a target stance. This is the best way to LEARN what your arms shoulders and back should feel like and their correct positions at full draw. Once you have that FEEL, It will not matter how you get there. It will not matter what your footing is like or what you have to do to get the shot off as long as you get to that correct full draw position.
If you watch many if not all the "old masters", they may not look as though they shoot the same BUT if you really study their full draw position just before release, they are all, almost without exception, lined up correctly with their backs engaged.
Thank you for the compliment.
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After reading this thread I have become a little confused. I am not familiar with the BEST System. Could anyone explain it to me. either on here or PM. thanks.
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Coach,
The BEST system (Biomechanically Efficient Shooting Technique) was developed by the US Olympic training center and is largely credited to the current US Head coach Kisic Lee. Mr Lee has published two books on this as "Total Archery." It is an organization of shooting techniques that have been known and used for years but put together into a tight package. It is now also known as the NTS (National Training System). It has been and is an effective way to get archers to TOP levels of performance.
All the USA Archery instructors that are currently getting coaching qualifications or are renewing their qualification are getting a healthy dose of NTS style and techniques.
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Thank you very much. I just havent heard of it. I always thought there was instinctive, gap and sights. I didnt realize there was a system to shooting.
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Coach, What you are referring to are aiming methods. These can include but are not limited to the three you mention and Point of aim, String walking, face walking, and who knows what else.
As you put it, the "system to shooting" has to do with the mechanics of the shot. The idea really is that until we get to good form, hitting the target is less important. Note that I said LESS not NOT important. One "sage" noted that hitting the bull's eye once is pretty easy but hitting it consistently over and over is hard. The BEST/NTS helps archers develop a system in their form that more easily allows consistent repeatability.
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The hardest part of archery is trying to acquire good from before thinking about hitting the target. I have found that the best archers that i have talk to are the most patient people i have ever met. I just started shooting traditional equipment, again, about 2 months ago. I have noticed that there really is no right or wrong way to shoot. The most important part of shooting is just the love to shoot. I am not dead eye yet but i am confident I will get there.
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"It may be time to emphasize that these videos were meant to cause thought about how you shoot, not to try to imply that this is the way you have to do it. Hopefully, the videos will cause you to think about what you do and how you do it.' Moebow
That just about hits the nail on the head.
Great thought, and great thread. If more folks would focus on developing a system for their shooting, whatever it might be, they'd likely be much better equipped to 1.) improve with time and 2.) know how to deal with problems when they arise.
This is one of the best threads I've seen here, one for the archives. Nice job, MoeB.